2 Door Range Rover project
Discussion
Well, my Overfinch has sold. I bought it accidentally as I was looking for the perfect 2 door project when I stumbled across it and had to have it. It was a monumentally brilliant car. Last of the conversions and was one of a matching pair with a Defender.
Some info here:
http://www.bramleyweb.co.uk/carsales/details/Land-...
Anyway, back in Feb I found the perfect 2 door for what I had planned. It had been totally restored over 10 years at a cost of over £20k. Fully galvanised and while modern trim parts had been fitted the owner had retained all the original trim bits and had a host of mint replacements as well. It was ideal.
Well, the plan is to restore the exterior to original 1972 look and I think I now have all the parts required. Also over the summer the door frames have been out and fully restored and powder coated.
The aim over winter is to get all these parts fitted.
The goal is to re-trim the interior to a noteably more luxurious state than original. We're going to kill a lot of cows for this and fit a bespoke rollcage to add extra protection for the occupants just in case.
The mecahnicals will all be changed and here is the intended spec:
Uprated half shafts
Uprated prop shaft
Uprated diffs.
Uprated CV joints
New dampers
anti roll bars
Uprate the brakes
High torque 6 speed manual
The problem is the engine.
I cannot make my mind up whether to have a big Rover lump made, a modest one with twin turbos or a SC AJ-V8 unit.
The supercharged Jag unit is my front runner, it's a great engine and I've found it to be brilliant in my XKR and various Rangies I've driven. In a 2 door it will be monumental. But the cost of installation is going to be significant.
It's imperative that the end result has more BHP and torque than the 5.7 SBC Chevy lump that was in the Overfinch. That car went well but I want this project to be a bit 'looney'.
This means that a standard Rover V8, even built to 5L or beyond spec just isn't going to deliver much, if any more than the Chevy. Ergo the idea of turbos.
The logic hear is that there is plenty of space for cooling and I'm thinking that they will be more efficient that a supercharger. TVR Power have derived a turbo option for the RV8.
So, the plan is to get all the running gear sorted along with the interior and then make a descision on the engine choice.
Once I have some pictures of the restored parts I'll post them up and I'll update this thread as I make progress. It's likely to be slow though.
Some info here:
http://www.bramleyweb.co.uk/carsales/details/Land-...
Anyway, back in Feb I found the perfect 2 door for what I had planned. It had been totally restored over 10 years at a cost of over £20k. Fully galvanised and while modern trim parts had been fitted the owner had retained all the original trim bits and had a host of mint replacements as well. It was ideal.
Well, the plan is to restore the exterior to original 1972 look and I think I now have all the parts required. Also over the summer the door frames have been out and fully restored and powder coated.
The aim over winter is to get all these parts fitted.
The goal is to re-trim the interior to a noteably more luxurious state than original. We're going to kill a lot of cows for this and fit a bespoke rollcage to add extra protection for the occupants just in case.
The mecahnicals will all be changed and here is the intended spec:
Uprated half shafts
Uprated prop shaft
Uprated diffs.
Uprated CV joints
New dampers
anti roll bars
Uprate the brakes
High torque 6 speed manual
The problem is the engine.
I cannot make my mind up whether to have a big Rover lump made, a modest one with twin turbos or a SC AJ-V8 unit.
The supercharged Jag unit is my front runner, it's a great engine and I've found it to be brilliant in my XKR and various Rangies I've driven. In a 2 door it will be monumental. But the cost of installation is going to be significant.
It's imperative that the end result has more BHP and torque than the 5.7 SBC Chevy lump that was in the Overfinch. That car went well but I want this project to be a bit 'looney'.
This means that a standard Rover V8, even built to 5L or beyond spec just isn't going to deliver much, if any more than the Chevy. Ergo the idea of turbos.
The logic hear is that there is plenty of space for cooling and I'm thinking that they will be more efficient that a supercharger. TVR Power have derived a turbo option for the RV8.
So, the plan is to get all the running gear sorted along with the interior and then make a descision on the engine choice.
Once I have some pictures of the restored parts I'll post them up and I'll update this thread as I make progress. It's likely to be slow though.
I remember that 2 door on ebay (I think).
What do you plan on doing colour wise? It's a nice colour as it is but it's not original, is it?
Engine wise a modern JLR SC unit is surely going to give the biggest grunt? A rover unit would be the easiest to fit though.
What about a JE built rover with SC?
I'm not sure about a turbo's on a rover V8 and the weight of a classic (albeit a lot less with a 2 door). I think the power curve of a SC suits it more. Not to mention the intoxicating whine of a blower.
Turbo Technics did a few turbo'd 4 doors, haven't seen one in the flesh though.
I'm going to be following this thread with great interest, I have plans to fit a meatier engine to my classic at some stage so will be interested to hear about your experiences.
What are you planning to do with the brakes? I find the late RRC brakes to be outstanding even when compared to modern metal.
Best of luck and please, please lots of photos!
What do you plan on doing colour wise? It's a nice colour as it is but it's not original, is it?
Engine wise a modern JLR SC unit is surely going to give the biggest grunt? A rover unit would be the easiest to fit though.
What about a JE built rover with SC?
I'm not sure about a turbo's on a rover V8 and the weight of a classic (albeit a lot less with a 2 door). I think the power curve of a SC suits it more. Not to mention the intoxicating whine of a blower.
Turbo Technics did a few turbo'd 4 doors, haven't seen one in the flesh though.
I'm going to be following this thread with great interest, I have plans to fit a meatier engine to my classic at some stage so will be interested to hear about your experiences.
What are you planning to do with the brakes? I find the late RRC brakes to be outstanding even when compared to modern metal.
Best of luck and please, please lots of photos!
Thanks. It's been resprayed Ardens Green, one of the later 80s colours.
They actually did a good job and it seems a little tough to respray but this is something that I am in two minds over.
The car was originally Lincoln Green and was then painted white before the previous owner started the rebuild.
In the current Market the sensible option is to take it back to Lincoln Green. If this is done properly then it's a panel off job etc and the cost is going to be around £4k upwards.
I'm thinking at the moment to either redo the interior in black or the more original tan. As such either of those interiors will work with Lincoln or Ardens green so I was probably go about this a little arse about face and change the colour back at a later date.
Re the engine, I do suspect that if I went for anything other than the AJ V8 I would be always thinking I made an error so I do suspect that will be the route I go in the end.
The 3.5 that is currently in the car is a RPE engine and by all accounts very sweet and only has a thousand or so miles on it.
Re the brakes, later Rangie brakes are good. I had updated disks on the Overfinch and with that weight and power they didn't inspire confidence when pushing it.
JE do a 6 pot conversion that is the route that I will go down. It will mean that the standard steels won't fit but they do a lovely set of Defender matching alloys which I think will be an improvement on the current Dukes of Hazzard alloys. Which are apparently originals so worth something.
So I'm going to focus on getting the mechanicals and interior done so that I have a serviceable car and then have two remaining elements, the engine and the colour.
They actually did a good job and it seems a little tough to respray but this is something that I am in two minds over.
The car was originally Lincoln Green and was then painted white before the previous owner started the rebuild.
In the current Market the sensible option is to take it back to Lincoln Green. If this is done properly then it's a panel off job etc and the cost is going to be around £4k upwards.
I'm thinking at the moment to either redo the interior in black or the more original tan. As such either of those interiors will work with Lincoln or Ardens green so I was probably go about this a little arse about face and change the colour back at a later date.
Re the engine, I do suspect that if I went for anything other than the AJ V8 I would be always thinking I made an error so I do suspect that will be the route I go in the end.
The 3.5 that is currently in the car is a RPE engine and by all accounts very sweet and only has a thousand or so miles on it.
Re the brakes, later Rangie brakes are good. I had updated disks on the Overfinch and with that weight and power they didn't inspire confidence when pushing it.
JE do a 6 pot conversion that is the route that I will go down. It will mean that the standard steels won't fit but they do a lovely set of Defender matching alloys which I think will be an improvement on the current Dukes of Hazzard alloys. Which are apparently originals so worth something.
So I'm going to focus on getting the mechanicals and interior done so that I have a serviceable car and then have two remaining elements, the engine and the colour.
If cost isn't an issue I'd say the Jag AJV8. I like RV8's, but they are old tech and it shows.
Not sure what 5.7 SBC you had previously, but if it was an LT1, then they can easily make 300+hp n/a, even a forced induction Rover will likely struggle to make anything much more than that I'd have thought unless you are looking at huge cost.
An AJV8 with a blower, even in 4.0 litre guise should easily make 400hp without any cats, a decent exhaust and intake setup.
I guess the only other sensible engine to really consider would be a newer Chevy LS engine. A 6.2 will without cats and the like be making close to 450hp. You can still turbo or supercharges these should you want to.
Not sure what 5.7 SBC you had previously, but if it was an LT1, then they can easily make 300+hp n/a, even a forced induction Rover will likely struggle to make anything much more than that I'd have thought unless you are looking at huge cost.
An AJV8 with a blower, even in 4.0 litre guise should easily make 400hp without any cats, a decent exhaust and intake setup.
I guess the only other sensible engine to really consider would be a newer Chevy LS engine. A 6.2 will without cats and the like be making close to 450hp. You can still turbo or supercharges these should you want to.
I know that you are anti Chevy engines now with their low specific output, but I think that you should at least try something with an LS3 or LS7 in.
http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
It has to stay with a land rover v8.
Speak to Rowland at ACR
http://www.automotivecomp.com/contactus.html
He did me a nice 4.8ltr V8 ...with omex ...so no distributer / air flow meter ... reliable 300 bhp / 300lb torque.
He is also doing some nice 350bhp [non s/c] newer RR engines with different cams.
Speak to Rowland at ACR
http://www.automotivecomp.com/contactus.html
He did me a nice 4.8ltr V8 ...with omex ...so no distributer / air flow meter ... reliable 300 bhp / 300lb torque.
He is also doing some nice 350bhp [non s/c] newer RR engines with different cams.
JimexPL said:
I know that you are anti Chevy engines now with their low specific output,
Why would anyone be anti an engine on that basis? Surely it's total output is what counts.Even more so in a 4x4, large displacement means lots of torque. Displacement is directly related to this.
e.g. a 6.2 litre LS3 might only make 430hp, but it also makes 424ft-lb or torque. And it'll make over 90% of that torque from as little as 1500rpm, so how does 382ft-lb @ 1500rpm sound?
Something like an e92 M3 might make similar PEAK power (420PS) from only 4 litres, but it only makes 295ft-lb of torque. So in reality the 6.2 LS3 makes more torque at 1500rpm, than the BMW motor manages to make at all.
This means the LS3 has way more pulling power.
Also, as:
HP = toque x rpm / 5252
It means the LS3 is making 109hp @ 1500,
The M3 after a quick Google seems to suggest around 230ft-lb of torque @ 1500rpm. Which is only 66hp at these rpms.
It's also worth noting, that an LS3 will respond very well to bolt on mods and even a mild cam and head work could easily see it over 500hp while retaining a very strong bottom end torque curve.
As for low Hp per displacement (specific output), supercharged AJV8 Jag engines aren't really that great.
Even with a supercharger the 4.0 litre only makes 370hp which is 92.5bhp/litre.
Bearing in mind a supercharger artificially increases an engines displacement, it forces more air into the same volume, so gives an "effective displacement" or "dynamic displacement".
I'm not sure exactly what boost an XJR/XKR run at stock, but even if they are only pushing half as much extra air into the engine, that would mean a 4.0 litre AJV8 would have a static displacement of 4.0 litres, but an effective displacement of 6.0 litres.
Suddenly it's specific output looks a lot lower if you take it effective displacement into consideration.
370hp / 6 effective litres = 61.7bhp/litre.
LS3 in stock trim:
430hp / 6.2 static litres = 69.4bhp/litre.
JimexPL said:
but I think that you should at least try something with an LS3 or LS7 in.
http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
300bhp/ton said:
task said:
I'm not sure about a turbo's on a rover V8 and the weight of a classic (albeit a lot less with a 2 door)
Is a 2 door really much lighter? The only real difference is the rear door frames surely?Edited by 300bhp/ton on Friday 4th November 10:22
300bhp/ton said:
If cost isn't an issue I'd say the Jag AJV8. I like RV8's, but they are old tech and it shows.
Not sure what 5.7 SBC you had previously, but if it was an LT1, then they can easily make 300+hp n/a, even a forced induction Rover will likely struggle to make anything much more than that I'd have thought unless you are looking at huge cost.
An AJV8 with a blower, even in 4.0 litre guise should easily make 400hp without any cats, a decent exhaust and intake setup.
I guess the only other sensible engine to really consider would be a newer Chevy LS engine. A 6.2 will without cats and the like be making close to 450hp. You can still turbo or supercharges these should you want to.
The target is to clear 400. The Overfinch had about 340 from a fat, lazy, stoopid 5.7. Lovely to drive but I simply can't stand those lazy engines. Perfect for the US but for me an affront to civilised society Not sure what 5.7 SBC you had previously, but if it was an LT1, then they can easily make 300+hp n/a, even a forced induction Rover will likely struggle to make anything much more than that I'd have thought unless you are looking at huge cost.
An AJV8 with a blower, even in 4.0 litre guise should easily make 400hp without any cats, a decent exhaust and intake setup.
I guess the only other sensible engine to really consider would be a newer Chevy LS engine. A 6.2 will without cats and the like be making close to 450hp. You can still turbo or supercharges these should you want to.
6.2L to manage 450 just isn't cricket. Byt the time you've got these US lumps to a sensible 90+ per litre you are looking at mental outputs and certainly not suitable for a 40 year old van.
JE's AJ V8 appears to deliver 450 from a SC 4.2 which seems suitable. I certainly wouldn't want any more than that and I don't really want to be much above 4 litres to get there.
The RV8 is old tech, as you say, and with an SC you can manage towards 400 so it is on the radar as a more cost effective option, but I do think I would regret it. I do have a Power 5L knocking a+bout that I can dump in that should give a good 250+ if needs be as an interim.
Is it easy to put secondary door seals on the 2 door, like the Overfinch option?
Are you going to put a faster steering box in?
Any idea on wheels? - A custom set of wider original steels would look good!
If you really won't consider an LS3/LS7, then as you mentioned before the 5.0n/a Jag engine would be nice.
Are you going to put a faster steering box in?
Any idea on wheels? - A custom set of wider original steels would look good!
If you really won't consider an LS3/LS7, then as you mentioned before the 5.0n/a Jag engine would be nice.
JimexPL said:
I know that you are anti Chevy engines now with their low specific output, but I think that you should at least try something with an LS3 or LS7 in.
http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
Hi James,http://www.partsworldperformance.com/ls3-v8/
Having decent heads, cam and manifold as standard, they rev far more freely (6,600rpm in the LS3 and 7,200rpm on the LS7) than iron block engine in the Overfinch, will be more reliable than the RV8 or AJ8 and will probably have better fuel economy.
The 6.2 LS3 produces peak power at 5,900rpm, so it's not just mid range grunt that you had with the Overfinch.
Indeed. It's an unexplainable and irrational bugbear of mine.
If I'm going to spend the money on fitting a different plant then I would definitely go Jag V8 over Chevy.
I've driven LS3 engined cars and they are great but not for me.
Mogburner very kindly spent some time earlier this year letting me lose on their Zulu Defender and while the NA version is actually a nicer drive there was something about the Zulu that just made me want to laugh when driving it. It's a genuinely stupid bit of kit and wonderful for it.
All the underpinnings will be the Zulu spec from JE, that much I have decided but the same of a company I've been working on all year that was going to deliver the fun money to do this project hasn't closed yet and is dragging on and on so the current plan is do everything in preparation and just live with the current engine.
I reckon the whole project is going to take a couple of years anyway given the rate that I move at on these things.
I had been planning to switch from the current 4 speed manual to an uprated P38 box from ZF but recently decided that as it is going to be a fun winter car and the ZF only has 4 gears and although you can have top lengthened to get a sensible point for long distance runs thier 6 speed manaul is probably the way forward. I need to check that the stick can be mounted in a more comfortable position then the existing one which is far too far forward. I believe their is a linkage kit available to bring it further back along the tunnel.
JimexPL said:
Is it easy to put secondary door seals on the 2 door, like the Overfinch option?
Are you going to put a faster steering box in?
Any idea on wheels? - A custom set of wider original steels would look good!
If you really won't consider an LS3/LS7, then as you mentioned before the 5.0n/a Jag engine would be nice.
JE do these Defender style alloys which is the probable route: Are you going to put a faster steering box in?
Any idea on wheels? - A custom set of wider original steels would look good!
If you really won't consider an LS3/LS7, then as you mentioned before the 5.0n/a Jag engine would be nice.
With regard to the faster steering box, that's undecided. I had this option in the Overfinch but the turning circle was bloody awful and made it a real pain to manoevre in the undergound parking I have in London. It could have been an LSE issue, or the wider wheels but I did believe it was the box. Which would be a shame as it would otherwise be a very prudent addition.
The more modern 5L NA Jag engine is also great. JE work with the previous generation model at present and I suspect the cost of modifying their current management system could be an issue? Or it could be that the later gen engines are much more expensive? I don't know on that one.
Love the Clubman by the way.
DonkeyApple said:
JE do these Defender style alloys which is the probable route:
With regard to the faster steering box, that's undecided. I had this option in the Overfinch but the turning circle was bloody awful and made it a real pain to manoevre in the undergound parking I have in London. It could have been an LSE issue, or the wider wheels but I did believe it was the box. Which would be a shame as it would otherwise be a very prudent addition.
The more modern 5L NA Jag engine is also great. JE work with the previous generation model at present and I suspect the cost of modifying their current management system could be an issue? Or it could be that the later gen engines are much more expensive? I don't know on that one.
Love the Clubman by the way.
I like those alloys. Hadn't seen them before.With regard to the faster steering box, that's undecided. I had this option in the Overfinch but the turning circle was bloody awful and made it a real pain to manoevre in the undergound parking I have in London. It could have been an LSE issue, or the wider wheels but I did believe it was the box. Which would be a shame as it would otherwise be a very prudent addition.
The more modern 5L NA Jag engine is also great. JE work with the previous generation model at present and I suspect the cost of modifying their current management system could be an issue? Or it could be that the later gen engines are much more expensive? I don't know on that one.
Love the Clubman by the way.
The LSE turning circle will have been because of the Overfinch alloys not having a particularly large offset, meaning that the lock stop adjusters are wound out quite a way.
I've had the Clubman for 13 years. Used to keep it in London as a student, but the proliferation of speed bumps in the last decade mean that a Mini is no longer ideal for the city.
Having sold one of our cars, I'm bringing my 88" Station Wagon to London for a few months from Monday, which ironically is far more suitable for town work these days!
JimexPL said:
I like those alloys. Hadn't seen them before.
The LSE turning circle will have been because of the Overfinch alloys not having a particularly large offset, meaning that the lock stop adjusters are wound out quite a way.
I've had the Clubman for 13 years. Used to keep it in London as a student, but the proliferation of speed bumps in the last decade mean that a Mini is no longer ideal for the city.
Having sold one of our cars, I'm bringing my 88" Station Wagon to London for a few months from Monday, which ironically is far more suitable for town work these days!
Landys and old Rangies are perfect for London. No anomisity from other drivers and you can dump them anywhere. It's the way forward. Mate of mine had a turd brown 1275 in London after Uni. Classically disasterous wagon. Could only be driven during daylight as the lights didn't work properly, had about 4 engines, last one filled the cabin with smoke when overly hot so had to be driven like Ace Ventura. Once took him 3 days to drive back up to Yorkshire for Christmas.The LSE turning circle will have been because of the Overfinch alloys not having a particularly large offset, meaning that the lock stop adjusters are wound out quite a way.
I've had the Clubman for 13 years. Used to keep it in London as a student, but the proliferation of speed bumps in the last decade mean that a Mini is no longer ideal for the city.
Having sold one of our cars, I'm bringing my 88" Station Wagon to London for a few months from Monday, which ironically is far more suitable for town work these days!
The Overfinch ran with the standard LSE cyclones, so would this have been the issue? I'm sure an LSE has a larger circle due to its length but I do suspect the shorter box is what gave it the shocking turning circle. In was a pita really.
30mm spacers would have cured the lock issue then (if you don't mind running them).
LSE's do have a poor lock, but the lock stop bolts are frequently set over cautiously so that rubbing does not occur on full lock at full articulation (an unlikely scenario for your new steed!). They were probably wound out even further with the Avon Turbospeeds on.
LSE's do have a poor lock, but the lock stop bolts are frequently set over cautiously so that rubbing does not occur on full lock at full articulation (an unlikely scenario for your new steed!). They were probably wound out even further with the Avon Turbospeeds on.
JimexPL said:
30mm spacers would have cured the lock issue then (if you don't mind running them).
LSE's do have a poor lock, but the lock stop bolts are frequently set over cautiously so that rubbing does not occur on full lock at full articulation (an unlikely scenario for your new steed!). They were probably wound out even further with the Avon Turbospeeds on.
That's good to know. Thanks.LSE's do have a poor lock, but the lock stop bolts are frequently set over cautiously so that rubbing does not occur on full lock at full articulation (an unlikely scenario for your new steed!). They were probably wound out even further with the Avon Turbospeeds on.
Is it Adwest who do the quick rack box?
Re secondary door seals. Not sure. The OF ones are like hen's teeth and I have assumed not the right fit as my doors are longer. They were a good addition to a 4 door though.
I've been looking at the Overfinch door seals fitted to ours and wondering how I can get them copied for the CSK. Will be taking a small off-cut to the NEC next weekend, see if woolies or anyone else can match it 
It is Adwest who do the quick-rack, have been eyeing one up myself. Perhaps after xmas.
Not a massive fan of the JE wheels above if I'm honest, fitted a set of 18" wheels to the CSK which seem to give an ample turning circle and really help the ride. Although heavily modified suspension would also be helping there.
If I find a match for the seals I'll let you guys know.
It is Adwest who do the quick-rack, have been eyeing one up myself. Perhaps after xmas.
Not a massive fan of the JE wheels above if I'm honest, fitted a set of 18" wheels to the CSK which seem to give an ample turning circle and really help the ride. Although heavily modified suspension would also be helping there.
If I find a match for the seals I'll let you guys know.
Yes - it's Adwest who do the uprated steering boxes -- go direct to them as they sell to public - last one I bought was £600 ish.
Any problems with pump capacity ...use a 3.9 ltr v8 pump and bore out the outlet hole an extra 1..5 mm and it will give extra capacity ..... Other rover pumps tend to destroy themselves when over worked.
Any problems with pump capacity ...use a 3.9 ltr v8 pump and bore out the outlet hole an extra 1..5 mm and it will give extra capacity ..... Other rover pumps tend to destroy themselves when over worked.
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