New Defender in the Wild

[300bhp/ton]

unrepentant said:

Actually feels nothing like a Disco. New platform is longer, rear seat very comfy and felt more spacious than an L405. Styling is purposeful, it will sell to a lot of people who preferred the looks of the D4 to the D5. It's already a hit, order books are jammed. A lot of dealers here in the US have more orders than they will get cars for the next 12 months.

Not sure how being longer makes it less Discovery like? And while your other points are true. This is not remotely a Defender.

Not saying it is a bad vehicle. But if you buying thinking it is a Defender. You are only fooling yourself. A Rose by any other name......

[300bhp/ton]

Cfnteabag said:

I don't really understand that idea,if you have 2 vehicles that are appealing to the same customers does that not increase your sales as they are twice as likely to by a Land Rover?

But who and why would anyone buy a D5 over one of these?

[300bhp/ton]

Trevor555 said:

These look great.

And I bet they drive 101 times better than the old Defender.

I bet the complete opposite. Better is very much a term that needs defining. Any Defender that is less fun and more car like is a poorer Defender in my eyes. If you want a road biased car like SUV. Pick anything else in the Land Rove line up.

This vehicle is a bit like if Lotus released a new Elise that weighed in a 2 tonne and was super comfy, refined, very powerful and supremely quick. With 2+2 seating and AWD. It might well be an awesome car. But it would be no Elise apart from in name only.....

[300bhp/ton]

BigBazza said:

The hatred from the "old school" Defender lot is moronic. I'm a D4 owner (follwing a D2, D3 and an earlier D4) and I also have a 1986 90 V8 which is original (scruffy) and I love them all.
Couldn't live with the look of the D5 so stuck hold of my D4 a little while longer and placed an order for a first edition 110 hopefully being delivered in March/April.
Comparing the price of the new Defender against old simply doesnt work, its not apples and apples. I'm getting a lovely spec Defender for less than a similar spec D5 and about the same as my D4 was new. Thats exactly where the pricing should be IMO.
Can't wait to take delivery!!

So you are buying a Discovery replacement. With a new Discovery, just one that has had a Defender badge slapped on it and marketed down everyone’s throats.

As said many times. I don’t hate the vehicle. Just the branding it as a Defender. It simple isn’t, period.

[300bhp/ton]

595Heaven said:

Sorry, I disagree with your sweeping statement. I picked up my new Defender yesterday (see thread in Reader’s Cars) and it appeals to me greatly

I’ve had two old Defenders and this is well worthy of the name.

I hope you enjoy your new vehicle. But it is a big miss on everything the old Defender did. You don’t need to be a fanboy or a hater on either side. Just jot down the attributes, abilities and requirements from the old one and compare to the new. They are completely different. Therefore logically completely unworthy of the name. And has been done for nothing more than marketing purposes.

Ie just like when Dodge brand dross like this as a Charger...



The only difference being, this new vehicle from LR actually seems pretty good. It is just wearing the wrong name.

[595Heaven]

300bhp/ton said:

Just jot down the attributes, abilities and requirements from the old one and compare to the new. They are completely different.

Genuine question - which attributes do you want to compare?

[300bhp/ton]

595Heaven said:

Genuine question - which attributes do you want to compare?

Any or all of them. E.g.

Modular body design
Utilitarian premised
Ladder chassis
Live axles
Birmabright panels
Folding windscreen
Removable door tops
PTO capability
Manual gearboxes
V8 engines
Proper suspension flex and axle articulation
Heavy duty hub and PCD
Pickup variants
Boxy body design and flat panels
Relatively small vehicle foot print and narrow width
Function over form rather than form over function
Native off road capability of the design and platform without needing to rely on electronics to give it any ability in the rough
Non plush interiors (another function over form thing)
Simple and durable design
Sensible tough bumpers and a lack of painted plastic
A vehicle that you feel connected to your surroundings in, rather than distanced. On road and especially off road.

I.e. the sort of things that make up the actualheritage of the “Land Rover” model thru the 1948 Series One 80” to the 2016 Defender 90 & 110.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not hating on the new vehicle. If you wrote down everything a modern Discovery should be. You should get something that rather accurately describes this new vehicle. And I like Discovery’s!

[595Heaven]

Hmmm... ok

I think to be honest you are going to be happier keeping your 88” (which sounds awesome by the way) as I suspect there are a vanishingly small group of buyers for that requirement list!

It will be interesting to see if the Ineos Grenadier is closer to what you want...

The new one is pretty damn tough though https://youtu.be/u7Oc4g_CtZc

Other than a roll cage and a beefier undertray on one car, these are standard!

[300bhp/ton]

595Heaven said:

Hmmm... ok

I think to be honest you are going to be happier keeping your 88” (which sounds awesome by the way) as I suspect there are a vanishingly small group of buyers for that requirement list!

It will be interesting to see if the Ineos Grenadier is closer to what you want...

The new one is pretty damn tough though https://youtu.be/u7Oc4g_CtZc

Other than a roll cage and a beefier undertray on one car, these are standard!

I’d just like to iterate. I’m not hating on the new model. Just it’s naming and some of how it is being marketed. I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance.

I do agree about the Ineos. I’m rather keen to see what becomes of it. But I do lament that Land Rover just don’t seem interested in pitching to the likes of myself.

I say this based on being someone who turns 40 in a few weeks. And also as someone who has grown up with Land Rovers. I grew up on a farm and we have always had Land Rovers about. I learnt to drive in them when I was about 11. Had a Defender as my first car when I was 17 and owned 6 or so Land Rovers of various types since then.

As a family we have had in the region of 40-50 Land Rovers over the years. My Uncle has been competing since the 1970s in them. And my Dad, Mum and Uncle are all founding members of our local Land Rover club. Which I’m currently club Scrutineer for.

My younger brother is much like me with his passion for Land Rovers and indeed owns an F plate Ninety.

However in the past 3 weeks both my brother and I have bought new 4wheel drives. I went for a Jimny and my brother bought a Renegade Trailhawk.

Land Rover simply don’t offer products that appealed or fitted and were affordable. Maybe they don’t want or even need our money. But they easily lost out on two sure fired sales this month. From two people who bleed Land Rover green.

Personally I feel it is rather a shame and quite sad. That said I’m very pleased with the Jimny and the Jeep is superb.

[unrepentant]

300bhp/ton said:

I’d just like to iterate. I’m not hating on the new model. Just it’s naming and some of how it is being marketed. I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance.

I do agree about the Ineos. I’m rather keen to see what becomes of it. But I do lament that Land Rover just don’t seem interested in pitching to the likes of myself.

Hmm... Land Rover don't seem interested in pitching to P38 owners? I'm sorry your post makes no sense.

Let's be clear, to survive Land Rover have to appeal to 21st Century buyers of new vehicles. This they are doing brilliantly. New Defender is a great product and is absolutely a Defender. It may not be exactly what you and other diehards were hoping you could buy used in 10 years time but it is what the market wants now. Land Rover do have a problem though. Demand will outstrip supply. There's a remedy for that though, I know someone who bought a 2020 RRS yesterday to fill the gap while he waits until next year for his Defender!

[300bhp/ton]

unrepentant said:

Hmm... Land Rover don't seem interested in pitching to P38 owners? I'm sorry your post makes no sense.

Let's be clear, to survive Land Rover have to appeal to 21st Century buyers of new vehicles. This they are doing brilliantly. New Defender is a great product and is absolutely a Defender. It may not be exactly what you and other diehards were hoping you could buy used in 10 years time but it is what the market wants now. Land Rover do have a problem though. Demand will outstrip supply. There's a remedy for that though, I know someone who bought a 2020 RRS yesterday to fill the gap while he waits until next year for his Defender!

You are somewhat missing the point

Not really sure what your are trying to say about the p38 either.....

I reference it as a Type of vehicle. Not an age of vehicle

Ie the new Defender is a good replacement for a Discovery 2, Range Rover (any vintage), Disco 3 or Disco 4.

You even reinforce this by saying someone has bought an RRS as a stop gap.

The point being this vehicle is not actually a replacement for a proper 90/110 or even an alternative to a Wrangler or a G-Wagen.

A Defender should be the sort of vehicle you buy as well as a Range Rover/Discovery. Not instead of.

You keep claiming it is a real Defender. Well ok in what way? What does it share with the Defender or Series models before that is doesn’t share with a Discovery 1/2/3/4?

I can only think of one thing. And that is the 3rd seat in the front. Everything else is straight off of the Discovery ingredients list.

[unrepentant]

300bhp/ton said:

unrepentant said:

Hmm... Land Rover don't seem interested in pitching to P38 owners? I'm sorry your post makes no sense.

Let's be clear, to survive Land Rover have to appeal to 21st Century buyers of new vehicles. This they are doing brilliantly. New Defender is a great product and is absolutely a Defender. It may not be exactly what you and other diehards were hoping you could buy used in 10 years time but it is what the market wants now. Land Rover do have a problem though. Demand will outstrip supply. There's a remedy for that though, I know someone who bought a 2020 RRS yesterday to fill the gap while he waits until next year for his Defender!

You are somewhat missing the point

Not really sure what your are trying to say about the p38 either.....

I reference it as a Type of vehicle. Not an age of vehicle

Ie the new Defender is a good replacement for a Discovery 2, Range Rover (any vintage), Disco 3 or Disco 4.

You even reinforce this by saying someone has bought an RRS as a stop gap.

The point being this vehicle is not actually a replacement for a proper 90/110 or even an alternative to a Wrangler or a G-Wagen.

A Defender should be the sort of vehicle you buy as well as a Range Rover/Discovery. Not instead of.

You keep claiming it is a real Defender. Well ok in what way? What does it share with the Defender or Series models before that is doesn’t share with a Discovery 1/2/3/4?

I can only think of one thing. And that is the 3rd seat in the front. Everything else is straight off of the Discovery ingredients list.

I reference the P38 because you started your previous post by saying " I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance." you're using the P38 (a car that went out of production in 2003) as a reference and saying that the car is too expensive for you to buy new anyway!.

It's a Defender for the 21st Century. It's relevant to today's market, the old car was not. The series Land Rovers and Defenders were great in their time, this car will sell globally. Defender hasn't been sold in the USA for 23 years for instance. New Defender has great DNA but it's a better car in every way and as I keep saying it's RELEVANT to the market in 2020. The old car was not.

It's not designed to compete with a Wrangler, it's not designed to compete with an old Defender. I know several people who are buying it instead of a G Wagon and I disagree with you about that. I think it will attract a lot of people who are considering the Benz.

You'll find that many buyers of the new car are existing RR owners but many more will be buying it as their first Land Rover. In that respect it will do a great job, just as the Evoque did in 2011. I'm sure you were right in there deriding it as "not a proper Land Rover". 800,000 cars later it's still going strong and new Evoque has moved it on again. Same with Disco Sport. Both huge sellers and I recall the "old guard" dismissing both.

This car is already a triumph for JLR, if Nitra can turn out enough of them it will be a huge seller for many years and that's great news. Celebrate it, don't knock it because it can't be dismantled in a field with a screw driver and a spanner.

[CSK1]

I think Mercedes-Benz have done a much better job at updating their G-Wagen than JLR their Defender.
Just saying.

[595Heaven]

unrepentant said:

I reference the P38 because you started your previous post by saying " I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance." you're using the P38 (a car that went out of production in 2003) as a reference and saying that the car is too expensive for you to buy new anyway!.

It's a Defender for the 21st Century. It's relevant to today's market, the old car was not. The series Land Rovers and Defenders were great in their time, this car will sell globally. Defender hasn't been sold in the USA for 23 years for instance. New Defender has great DNA but it's a better car in every way and as I keep saying it's RELEVANT to the market in 2020. The old car was not.

It's not designed to compete with a Wrangler, it's not designed to compete with an old Defender. I know several people who are buying it instead of a G Wagon and I disagree with you about that. I think it will attract a lot of people who are considering the Benz.

You'll find that many buyers of the new car are existing RR owners but many more will be buying it as their first Land Rover. In that respect it will do a great job, just as the Evoque did in 2011. I'm sure you were right in there deriding it as "not a proper Land Rover". 800,000 cars later it's still going strong and new Evoque has moved it on again. Same with Disco Sport. Both huge sellers and I recall the "old guard" dismissing both.

This car is already a triumph for JLR, if Nitra can turn out enough of them it will be a huge seller for many years and that's great news. Celebrate it, don't knock it because it can't be dismantled in a field with a screw driver and a spanner.

Great post! Two days in and I’m loving it

[Hard-Drive]

unrepentant said:

It's not designed to compete with a Wrangler, it's not designed to compete with an old Defender.

And that's the crux of the matter. If the military aren't bolting guns and armour to it, if Western Power aren't bolting cherry pickers to it, if the AA don't have some for off road recoveries, if you can't hose the inside out, if safari companies don't convert the bodywork to carry 20 people, if it's not THE vehicle of choice for long distance overland expeditions with no support, then it's NOT a Defender and does not deserve to be called one. You can't call a car a Defender if it's not designed to compete with the outgoing model!

I'm sure it's a truly great vehicle in every respect (with slightly questionable styling) and I have absolutely no issue with it wearing the Land Rover badge, and I love many vehicles in the LR range...the other half has a Velar and I absolutely love it. I'd love to have a play in one soon (hmmmm...we do have an LR experience day voucher to cash in soon...) but IMHO her Velar has the same right to wear the Defender badge as the new Defender.

[300bhp/ton]

unrepentant said:

I reference the P38 because you started your previous post by saying " I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance." you're using the P38 (a car that went out of production in 2003) as a reference and saying that the car is too expensive for you to buy new anyway!.

Why is it always so hard to actually talk and discuss the Defender model? It seems fanboys like you want twist every word all the time and simply not listen to reason or accept the fact that other people may not actually be so blindly infatuated with the vehicle !!!! !!!! !!!!

And it always seems to come down that you also only ever want to compare bank balances and if a person turns out not to be able to afford one, then they automatically are not allowed to voice an opinion and anything they mention is open to ridicule? Does it make you happy treating people like this?

Riiight...

To clear things up. No, I can't afford one. And I suspect I am not alone. There is no denying they are priced fairly high currently, which really will limit who can access them. However, I'm perfectly adult enough to be able to judge the vehicle aside from its list price. Although when saying stupid things like "it is a real Defender". Maybe you should consider the price point the previous ones were pitched at!

As for the reference to the p38. For now, the THIRD time. I am talking about the Type of vehicle. As in a somewhat road biased, comfortable SUV style of 4x4. A Tourareg, Cayanne, Range Rover, Discovery, Grand Cherokee type of vehicle. Any person would likely own any of these such a vehicles for quite similar reasons. Compared to why a person may want to own something more specialised and focused.

The Defender or Series Land Rover has NEVER sat in this market segment (1948 thru 2016, which is a pretty long time) and would have been more akin to a Wrangler, Jimny, International Scout Havester, Early Bronco, etc.

If you are having a hard time splitting up the categories. Think 2 seater sports car vs luxury Grand Tourer. It is a similar sort of difference. And quite often people will own one of each type of vehicle.

unrepentant said:

It's a Defender for the 21st Century. It's relevant to today's market, the old car was not.

Fanboys of this model are completely blinkered it seems

Just because it is a modern SUV, in much the same way as 90% of the vehicles in this sector are (Toureg/F Pace/Caynne/X5, etc etc). Does not mean it is a Defender in any way other than a badge being stuck on it with that name. The outgoing model was perfectly suited at what it was intended to do. This new model does not fulfil that role at all. If your eyes weren't so glazed over, this is an extremely simple thing to see and understand.
And don't take it personally, I'm not insulting you personally. I'm not even hating on the vehicle you are dribbling over. But being blinkered is only making you ignorant of some pretty basic facts.

unrepentant said:

Defender hasn't been sold in the USA for 23 years for instance.

And I hate to be the one to break it to you. But it still isn't. They are selling a Discovery replacement with a Defender badge on. If you are truly convincing yourself otherwise, then more fool you!
And again, I’m not saying it is a bad vehicle, or you can’t be passionate about it and enjoy it. But being passionate about something, doesn’t magically alter what it is or isn’t.

unrepentant said:

New Defender has great DNA but it's a better car in every way and as I keep saying it's RELEVANT to the market in 2020. The old car was not.

Relevant depends a lot on what you are wanting from a vehicle. As this new model doesn't fulfil almost all of the requirements of the old model, it makes it highly irrelevant in many regards, if discussing it as a direct replacement. And no, I couldn't care less that it might suit you on a city cruise or going to a soccer/football game better. That is simply just describing a need for a completely different vehicle.
As for better in every way. Well I’ll put it out there as an open invite for anyone close by with a new Defender. If you want to pitch a brand new Defender against an old one, I can probably arrange something. But do be prepared for the new model to suffer some potential damage inside and out. I have access to some land to test them off road side by side or even compared them doing some side by side tasks on the farm.


However, I truly fail to understand why such a simple concept seems to be beyond your comprehension. I'm not saying you can't like this new model. But stop trying to fool everyone and yourself, making out it is something it clearly isn't.

For instance, you can rename anything. Doesn't mean it is really still the same thing.

If you took a traditional Roast Beef Dinner. But got rid of the veg for a side salad and replaced the meat with a vegan protein substitute. You could likely still call it a Roast Beef Dinner. But it would be only in name, as it shares none of the things that makes a Roast Beef dinner a Roast Beef Dinner!
By and large this is true with the new Defender. It does all the things a Discovery/Range Rover can do, but simply lacks a great many of the defining features of a Defender.

unrepentant said:

It's not designed to compete with a Wrangler, it's not designed to compete with an old Defender.

Well exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why are you finding it so hard to grasp that this new model isn't directly replacing the old one. And if it isn't, it logically therefore is not really the same sort of thing at all ---- regardless of how good or bad it may be at doing something completely different, i.e. a Defender in name only.,, QED

unrepentant said:

I know several people who are buying it instead of a G Wagon and I disagree with you about that. I think it will attract a lot of people who are considering the Benz.

I think we are back to the bank balance and wallet waving again........ Likely in this scenario it is all about fashion and making a statement. And nothing actually to do with anything heritage related to the model or marque.
Mercedes have done a wonderful, dare I say even a marvellous job of turning the military grade G-Wagen into a topflight fashion accessory for the wealthy, rich & famous. And with the recent upgrade they even managed to retain all of the DNA of the original, despite charging as much as a house for one. Land Rover on the other hand are clearly chasing the wealthy, rich & famous. And equally desire the model to be fashion accessory. But they have attacked this target by removing all the DNA from the vehicle completely. It may well become an established fashion item, especially in the USA. But once again, this does not make it anymore of a real Defender than slapping the badge on pretty much anything.
For arguments sake. If Land Rover had launched the exact same model, 100% identical but called it Discovery 6 in the UK and LR6 in the USA. Do you think it would have the same level of desirability? Honestly….
If your answer is No. Then it clearly underlines that this is a Defender in name only and done purely for marketing purposes. And not because it is actually a real Defender model replacing the previous model.

unrepentant said:

You'll find that many buyers of the new car are existing RR owners but many more will be buying it as their first Land Rover.

And you are getting this nugget of factual information from where?

unrepentant said:

In that respect it will do a great job, just as the Evoque did in 2011. I'm sure you were right in there deriding it as "not a proper Land Rover".

Cough cough:

Why is it always so hard to actually talk and discuss the Defender model? It seems fanboys like you want twist every word all the time and simply not listen to reason or accept the fact that other people may not actually be so blindly infatuated with the vehicle !!!! !!!! !!!!


And no, not in the least. I have in the past and will continue to defender the Evoque model. And no, I don't own one either, just encase that was your next attack. However, there is a key difference. The Evoque is not pretending to be a Defender, nor was it trying to be a vehicle to fulfil the role of the Defender.

unrepentant said:

800,000 cars later it's still going strong and new Evoque has moved it on again. Same with Disco Sport. Both huge sellers and I recall the "old guard" dismissing both.

Funny, I don't recall that at all.

unrepentant said:

This car is already a triumph for JLR, if Nitra can turn out enough of them it will be a huge seller for many years and that's great news. Celebrate it, don't knock it because it can't be dismantled in a field with a screw driver and a spanner.

Still missing the point. I'll give you a clue, it has nothing to do with spanners or screw drivers.

[unrepentant]

595Heaven said:

unrepentant said:

I reference the P38 because you started your previous post by saying " I can well see one in my future at some point as a replacement for my p38. But not as new vehicle. They are a little too rich for my tastes or bank balance." you're using the P38 (a car that went out of production in 2003) as a reference and saying that the car is too expensive for you to buy new anyway!.

It's a Defender for the 21st Century. It's relevant to today's market, the old car was not. The series Land Rovers and Defenders were great in their time, this car will sell globally. Defender hasn't been sold in the USA for 23 years for instance. New Defender has great DNA but it's a better car in every way and as I keep saying it's RELEVANT to the market in 2020. The old car was not.

It's not designed to compete with a Wrangler, it's not designed to compete with an old Defender. I know several people who are buying it instead of a G Wagon and I disagree with you about that. I think it will attract a lot of people who are considering the Benz.

You'll find that many buyers of the new car are existing RR owners but many more will be buying it as their first Land Rover. In that respect it will do a great job, just as the Evoque did in 2011. I'm sure you were right in there deriding it as "not a proper Land Rover". 800,000 cars later it's still going strong and new Evoque has moved it on again. Same with Disco Sport. Both huge sellers and I recall the "old guard" dismissing both.

This car is already a triumph for JLR, if Nitra can turn out enough of them it will be a huge seller for many years and that's great news. Celebrate it, don't knock it because it can't be dismantled in a field with a screw driver and a spanner.

Great post! Two days in and I’m loving it

Glad to hear it, it's awesome!

We're not going to get our first cars in the US for a few months but anticipation is high.

Will you take it off road? I'm guessing most new owners won't but if you do you'll be shocked at how capable it is. The most capable Land Rover ever, by some distance.

[300bhp/ton]

unrepentant said:

Glad to hear it, it's awesome!

We're not going to get our first cars in the US for a few months but anticipation is high.

Will you take it off road? I'm guessing most new owners won't but if you do you'll be shocked at how capable it is. The most capable Land Rover ever, by some distance.

[img] https://amgreatness.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01...

[595Heaven]

300bhp/ton said:

Stuff. Lots of stuff

Wow! We clearly aren’t going to agree on much, other than Defenders arouse huge passion in a lot of people. And I like that - who wants to drive a ‘meh’ boring box...

Enjoy yours, I’ll enjoy mine. Peace

[595Heaven]

unrepentant said:

Glad to hear it, it's awesome!

We're not going to get our first cars in the US for a few months but anticipation is high.

Will you take it off road? I'm guessing most new owners won't but if you do you'll be shocked at how capable it is. The most capable Land Rover ever, by some distance.

I did the retailer training at Eastnor! I wish I had access to some of the tracks we used - would love to do more