Defender 1st timer - advice sought

[camel_landy]

m911rks said:

Crossflow Kid said:

And the answer is:

130 Double cab hi-cap pick-up

Haha, I don't need an HGV, it's only for moving things around from time to time!

In that case, just hire a van...

M

[anonymous-user]

camel_landy said:

Crossflow Kid said:

And the answer is:

130 Double cab hi-cap pick-up

I love those things...
...pity about the turning circle though!!

M

I thought they had time zones, not turning circles.

[300bhp/ton]

m911rks said:

Thanks for the feedback all, it's been really helpful so is much appreciated!

I'll see if I can sort an extended test drive after lockdown in a 90 & a 110 to compare them. I've driven 90's before off road but not for any real length of time, so I'll see if I can hire one to get the proper experience and also check the space out too. It looks like there are a lot of choices on the market of both models, some nice & standard and lots of pimped ones too which it sounds like need avoiding!

Thanks again

I don't think you ever mentioned what you wanted the vehicle for?

As in, what kind of use/driving.


As I said before. I personally love Defenders. Have grown up and around Land Rover's all my life. They are a big part of my social life too.

But I have to say, I really don't think the Defender is worth what some are asking for it.


If you want something comfy, refined, quiet and modern handling. They just aren't the right vehicle. They also only really make sense if you are going tow, haul or go off road in them. As pure road cars, they are compromised. And if you are prepared for the compromises or at least prepared to accept the compromises. Chances are you'll not really enjoy owning one.

If you have some money in your pocket I'm sure you'll spend a wedge trying to solve some of these issues. But ultimately you will be unable to do so. Which is why you see so many spammed up ones for sale.


If you want a boxy off roader but want more refinement. Then something like the Jeep Wrangler is probably a much better bet. Available with more power, automatic transmission, air con and a nicer more plush interior. But still fundamentally a very similar type of vehicle.

[CAPP0]

Red9zero said:

300bhp/ton said:

The only issue with bed liner, is due to the textured surface. It is hard to clean. If you get mud on it, you can't wipe it down and even dust tends to cling onto it.

I used it in one of mine on the seat box and it looked great initially, but I wished I hadn't after a while.

Good point !

Yes, good point. I used something which was like a stone chip spray but with some rubber element to it, I can't recall what it was called now but it goes on and dries smooth so it gets round that issue, even if it is a little thinner than the truck bed stuff.

[m911rks]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't think you ever mentioned what you wanted the vehicle for?

As in, what kind of use/driving.


As I said before. I personally love Defenders. Have grown up and around Land Rover's all my life. They are a big part of my social life too.

But I have to say, I really don't think the Defender is worth what some are asking for it.


If you want something comfy, refined, quiet and modern handling. They just aren't the right vehicle. They also only really make sense if you are going tow, haul or go off road in them. As pure road cars, they are compromised. And if you are prepared for the compromises or at least prepared to accept the compromises. Chances are you'll not really enjoy owning one.

If you have some money in your pocket I'm sure you'll spend a wedge trying to solve some of these issues. But ultimately you will be unable to do so. Which is why you see so many spammed up ones for sale.


If you want a boxy off roader but want more refinement. Then something like the Jeep Wrangler is probably a much better bet. Available with more power, automatic transmission, air con and a nicer more plush interior. But still fundamentally a very similar type of vehicle.

We're moving out into the countryside soon & my current car is a 911, which I'd use if I was ever doing any reasonable mileage. The Defender thinking is for occasional use as some of the roads around where we're moving to aren't the best & for moving a few bits around as we do work on the house we're buying. I've always had a soft spot for them, but haven't ever owned one, or driven one too much either. I like the idea of having one that I can also do a bit with myself in the future and clearly I've seen the prices are strong too, so I figured it wouldn't lose much if I bought something reasonable & looked after it. Hopefully without sounding like a tser, we've also got a RRS, so have a nice comfortable 4x4 for the family, but the Defender is planned for me to potter around in & to be a bit of a workhorse occasionally when needed.

It sounds like I need to have a proper go in one for a few days to make sure I can live with the downsides!

[camel_landy]

With that description, I'd probably go for a 'cosmetically challenged' 110, Hi-Cap Pickup. That way you can throw all sorts in the back and not worry about it getting scratched.

M

[warch]

A Defender makes a perfect second or third car, in that role it doesn't need to be fast or comfortable. Most people don't really need one, on a purely practical basis there are lots of vehicles that do the same sort of thing better, for less money etc, but that entirely misses the point of their appeal.

I own the Defender's 60's incarnation, the Series II Land Rover. It does most of the things a newer one does, the comparative lack of performance is not an issue for my usage, a good one will often outlive its owner and it won't depreciate. It doesn't really go off road, but get used for towing heavy trailers or tip runs, which all Land Rovers are well suited to.

[Mitch16]

Mark,

I have just made my first move into Defender ownership, having always wanted to own one. Having spent some time ‘studying’ the market I bought a 13 plate 110, one previous owner and only 15,000 miles. It is immaculate having been kept in a barn, luckily it was for sale near me in Surrey. I did pay a premium but took comfort given the immaculate condition. It is totally standard as it left the factory.

I agree you should take one for a decent test drive, the excitement could wear off quickly if it is not your thing. The refinement compared to modern cars is way off and no safety, e.g. no airbags

However, my family and I love it, we go exploring every weekend in the lanes around us and just go for drives for the hell of it (and I sold a nearly new Merc C63 to buy it). She is a keeper no doubt. Can fit kids bikes in, doesn’t matter if it gets muddy and wet, etc.

It has also taught me about driving again, reading the road, manual gear box. Working out if the turning circle will make a junction! Lovely not to have to doge pot hole too.

From me so far (one month in) I would say get the best condition you can and then budget to keep it that way. buy from a Land Rover specialist who will know what to look for (e.g. where rust can start underneath)

Picture of my new toy to follow. Good luck.

[m911rks]

Mitch16 said:

Mark,

I have just made my first move into Defender ownership, having always wanted to own one. Having spent some time ‘studying’ the market I bought a 13 plate 110, one previous owner and only 15,000 miles. It is immaculate having been kept in a barn, luckily it was for sale near me in Surrey. I did pay a premium but took comfort given the immaculate condition. It is totally standard as it left the factory.

I agree you should take one for a decent test drive, the excitement could wear off quickly if it is not your thing. The refinement compared to modern cars is way off and no safety, e.g. no airbags

However, my family and I love it, we go exploring every weekend in the lanes around us and just go for drives for the hell of it (and I sold a nearly new Merc C63 to buy it). She is a keeper no doubt. Can fit kids bikes in, doesn’t matter if it gets muddy and wet, etc.

It has also taught me about driving again, reading the road, manual gear box. Working out if the turning circle will make a junction! Lovely not to have to doge pot hole too.

From me so far (one month in) I would say get the best condition you can and then budget to keep it that way. buy from a Land Rover specialist who will know what to look for (e.g. where rust can start underneath)

Picture of my new toy to follow. Good luck.

Great feedback, thanks Mitch.

I love the car too - it looks fantastic! I'm now also wondering if a 110 is a better approach than a 90 from some of the other responses. From looking online, they're also seemingly cheaper than 90's for some reason?

[300bhp/ton]

m911rks said:

We're moving out into the countryside soon & my current car is a 911, which I'd use if I was ever doing any reasonable mileage. The Defender thinking is for occasional use as some of the roads around where we're moving to aren't the best & for moving a few bits around as we do work on the house we're buying. I've always had a soft spot for them, but haven't ever owned one, or driven one too much either. I like the idea of having one that I can also do a bit with myself in the future and clearly I've seen the prices are strong too, so I figured it wouldn't lose much if I bought something reasonable & looked after it. Hopefully without sounding like a tser, we've also got a RRS, so have a nice comfortable 4x4 for the family, but the Defender is planned for me to potter around in & to be a bit of a workhorse occasionally when needed.

It sounds like I need to have a proper go in one for a few days to make sure I can live with the downsides!

In terms of 90 vs 110.

The 90 is easier to park and they really are quite compact. Although even in a 110, you can see all the corners. The 110 should ride better with less chop, due to the longer wheelbase. Although depending on exact year and body config, 110's can have quite stiff rear springs.

The double cab 110 is probably the best mix of practicality.

Personally I like 90's more. But you do need to treat them more like 2 seaters. The rear bed is more usable than some are making out IMO. And if you fit some side benches, you can seat 4 in the back.

Any 90 can be turned into a pickup or even a full tilt. It's pretty easy and cheap to do.




In terms of which variant of 90. There have been quite a few over the years. And while they all look similar, there have been many evolutionary changes over the years.

From the sounds of it, you have a budget to buy pretty much any including the last of the line.


As a general trend, each "generation" of Defender has gotten more refined than the previous one.


You have the Puma models (~2007+). These have a Ford 2.4 or 2.2 engine and a 6 speed manual. The 2.4 and 2.2 are similar enough to not worry about which IMO. Both are easy to remap to around 180hp.

These models have the bonnet bulge. The bonnet is also steel instead of aluminium on earlier versions.

They arguably have better heaters and things like electric windows and aircon quite common on them. They also have the best Traction Control System on a Defender. But this only really matters if you are going off road.

They do lack the front opening air vents of past models. And personally I don't like the look of the dash as much either. It has way less storage space.


The Ford diesels also sound the worst of any Defender engine IMO. These models are more prone to electrical issues than past models. The 6 speed box does give better high speed cruising ability.



1998-2007 you have the Td5 models. The Td5 was the last "Land Rover" engine in a traditional sense. And it is a lovely motor. Wonderful exhaust note and almost as tunable as the latter common rail Ford units. But arguably with a lot more character. This model also retains the opening air vents and the proper dash layout. Traction control was optional on these models and you might find a few with air con, but less common.

The Td5 isn't without its faults, but overall it is a very good engine. They use the R380 5 speed Rover box. Not a bad gearbox and hails from the LT-77 used in the first 90's.


Personally, if I was going for a factory fitted diesel. The Td5 would probably be my pick.



1990-1998 This era uses the Tdi engines known as 200 and 300Tdi. These are good engines, but a lot less refined and gruff. However the block does hail from the 2 1/4 engines introduced in the Series II.

Overall these vehicles are quite similar to the Td5 models, but generally less refined. Some changes to the how the doors were built and axle designs. No TCS and no air con options. But the same Lt-77 and R380 gearboxes.

This era and engine option will make the Defender feel a lot more basic and much more raw.


You might find a few V8's of this era too. 3.5 twin carb (SU). But these generally don't perform much better than the Tdi, but use more fuel. The V8 is of low compression.


These were also the first "Defenders". The name was introduced with the 200Tdi engine.


Pre-1990 models use either the 2.5 TD or 3.5 Rover V8. The 2.5 TD is quite nice, more refined than the Tdi's that replaced it. But they are under powered by comparison. And would feel slow by modern standards. The V8 is low compression and most likely on Stromberg carbs. And the V8's use the LT-85 gearbox, which has bigger throws and feels more truck like to shift. The V8 also has a taller transfer box.





As I say, changes have been evolutionary over the years like going from 10 to 24 spline axles. And disc rear axle brakes. Some body panels have changed a bit and construction methods. Although latter models tend to have thinner metal for the bodies than earlier ones.



Rust is an issue on the foot wells, battery tray and the chassis. However many Td5 and older versions will have had new galvanised chassis replacements by now. The Puma's, esp 2.2 models should still be in pretty good order though. Unless they have been heavily abused.

Worth noting, that every single part is replaceable and repairable. Which means older models can easily be brought up to spec.


Now if you have the money to put into a vehicle. You might want to consider some other options.


The 50th Anniversary model uses the 3.9 V8 with fuel injection (although there are claims it was detuned). These are the only UK model to be fitted with an automatic. I'm not an auto fan, but I'd much rather one of these over a Puma.

There are also some BMW 2.8 petrol powered 90's. These were built for the S.African market. And can still be imported. They will be much more refined and speedy than any of the diesels.


And more oddball still is the NAS (North American Spec) model. Although they are rare here now due to the crazy prices they demand in the USA. They are very similar to the 50th Anni model. But could be had with a manual or an auto. They also have unique soft or removable hardtops. These are all LHD.




So it really comes down to what you are after. I personally like how a Defender handles and drives on the road, but I do have a passion for how 'proper' 4x4's drive. But there is no denying the Defender has limited interior space, refinement and NVH.


I think for buying in the UK, I'd actually keep an eye out for a tidy V8 of some description. With the plan of fitting a 4.0 or 4.6 V8 from a p38 Range Rover. The V8's are just so much more refined than the diesels. And a lot of fun. I know the Puma would likely be tidier and refined. But still.....

The Puma would be nicer. But the V8 would be an event.

[David Beer]

When looking for my defender, it had to be XS. Air con,traction,ABS heated seats and windscreen. It’s gone now and lost 1000 in 8 years. Still have a defender, a SVX convertible with all the above “luxury “ ! Bought in 2009 it’s worth quite a bit more than I paid for it.

[m911rks]

It's me again - I'm looking seriously now as we've moved out into the countryside & I've got the money ready. I've got my heart set on a 90 & have seen a few that I like. I really don't like the snorkel's fitted to them, but some of the cars with snorkels at the perfect spec for what I'm looking for. Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Thanks in advance, Mark

[Ayahuasca]

Love my Defender 110, had it around 10 years as my daily driver but moving so faced with the prospect of selling it. Will be a sad day.

[Red9zero]

m911rks said:

It's me again - I'm looking seriously now as we've moved out into the countryside & I've got the money ready. I've got my heart set on a 90 & have seen a few that I like. I really don't like the snorkel's fitted to them, but some of the cars with snorkels at the perfect spec for what I'm looking for. Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Thanks in advance, Mark

Depends on the snorkel fitted. Mine is the same size as the vent and uses the same screw holes, so would only leave a few holes where the brackets by the screen are. Unless any major panel cutting has been done, I wouldn't worry too much. You can always put bolts or rivets in any holes and make up a bigger vent cover if you have too.

[warch]

Predicting a wall of text from 300bhp/ton any second now...

[camel_landy]

Red9zero said:

m911rks said:

Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Depends on the snorkel fitted.

^^^ This...

Most of the raised air intakes (they're not 'snorkels') tend to use the original mounting points already on the vehicle. The only ones you often need to add are for a bracket on the 'A' pillar.

HTH

M

[Lodelaner]

m911rks said:

It's me again - I'm looking seriously now as we've moved out into the countryside & I've got the money ready. I've got my heart set on a 90 & have seen a few that I like. I really don't like the snorkel's fitted to them, but some of the cars with snorkels at the perfect spec for what I'm looking for. Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Thanks in advance, Mark

Lots of info and advice on Defender2.net if you haven't found it already.

With the experience of having owned run 10 Land Rovers - If I was in your position I'd buy this https://blackbarnautomotive.co.uk/showroom/land-ro...

A very blank canvas to do whatever you want to do with it. Alternatively Bish (seller) would be happy enough to convert it to whatever you want and deliver it to your door.

[hidetheelephants]

CAPP0 said:

Red9zero said:

300bhp/ton said:

The only issue with bed liner, is due to the textured surface. It is hard to clean. If you get mud on it, you can't wipe it down and even dust tends to cling onto it.

I used it in one of mine on the seat box and it looked great initially, but I wished I hadn't after a while.

Good point !

Yes, good point. I used something which was like a stone chip spray but with some rubber element to it, I can't recall what it was called now but it goes on and dries smooth so it gets round that issue, even if it is a little thinner than the truck bed stuff.

I can't remember if it applies to Raptor, but at least one of the common bedliner paints can be put on smooth, it's down to the application method.

[AL5026]

Lodelaner said:

m911rks said:

It's me again - I'm looking seriously now as we've moved out into the countryside & I've got the money ready. I've got my heart set on a 90 & have seen a few that I like. I really don't like the snorkel's fitted to them, but some of the cars with snorkels at the perfect spec for what I'm looking for. Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Thanks in advance, Mark

Lots of info and advice on Defender2.net if you haven't found it already.

With the experience of having owned run 10 Land Rovers - If I was in your position I'd buy this https://blackbarnautomotive.co.uk/showroom/land-ro...

A very blank canvas to do whatever you want to do with it. Alternatively Bish (seller) would be happy enough to convert it to whatever you want and deliver it to your door.

That’s a strange advert, it looks to be over 2 years old as it states the mot runs out in September 2019 yet its still for sale. Current mileage is over 60k too? Don’t think it’s overpriced so can’t see why it wouldn’t have sold?

[LooneyTunes]

m911rks said:

It's me again - I'm looking seriously now as we've moved out into the countryside & I've got the money ready. I've got my heart set on a 90 & have seen a few that I like. I really don't like the snorkel's fitted to them, but some of the cars with snorkels at the perfect spec for what I'm looking for. Has anyone got experience of removing one & are there any issues in doing so?

Thanks in advance, Mark

Depending on budget, I’d try to get something that didn’t need bits removing / needed minimal work. There are some really nice 90s around at present so it shouldn’t be too hard to find one without a RAI? As others have said, depending on the type fitted, removal is possible. Clearly one that exits through a new hole in the wing top would be harder than one that uses the original apertures.

One other option to consider is that depending in the colour of the vehicle, RAIs can be pretty unobtrusive and sometimes made to blend in more if you add a roof rack.