Buy to Let Cars ?
Discussion
AJS- said:
Just doing the maths, to get the £17,955 return they would have to charge £600 a month before any admin fees etc, which seems quite a lot for a £13,500 car.
Very rough rule of thumb. £150 per month for every £10k of car. Over 3 years with a 3 month up front payment, 15k miles pa.
Bump. This site still appears to be going, hasn't been shut down as a scam yet.
Anybody had any actual dealings with this company yet?
The way I see it, if your contract with their company is watertight on the things they say they will do, I can't see where you can go wrong?
Still won't be investing my money mind.
Anybody had any actual dealings with this company yet?
The way I see it, if your contract with their company is watertight on the things they say they will do, I can't see where you can go wrong?
Still won't be investing my money mind.
cotney said:
Bump. This site still appears to be going, hasn't been shut down as a scam yet.
Anybody had any actual dealings with this company yet?
The way I see it, if your contract with their company is watertight on the things they say they will do, I can't see where you can go wrong?
Still won't be investing my money mind.
You can have the best contract in the world but if (when) the company goes bust item the contract is worth fck all Anybody had any actual dealings with this company yet?
The way I see it, if your contract with their company is watertight on the things they say they will do, I can't see where you can go wrong?
Still won't be investing my money mind.
TwistingMyMelon said:
You can have the best contract in the world but if (when) the company goes bust item the contract is worth fck all
Appreciate that but as you own the asset that is being leased out, even if their company went bust, you would still own the car and could presumably either sell it on to reclaim what you could of your initial investment - or even arrange with the lessee that they will just pay you now instead?The registration document isn't proof of ownership and anyway to prevent/reduce onward I'd assume BTLcars will have registered an interest in the vehicle. In the event of bankruptcy you'd have to the prove the Asset Finance Register entry for the vehicle doesn't give the adminstrators interest in the vehicle as a company asset.
To guarantee the return including principle they'd need a whole series of policies in place and a chunk of cash held in escrow to cover cars that vanish, are written off, returned badly damaged etc.
Do the sums and you'll realise that the 33% return is exclusive of principle so you spend £13.5 to get £4.4k.
The testomonals indicate how the scheme works even if the investors haven't quite figured out what happens at term. Take one customer with 12 cars @ 4k per month income = 250 per month per car x 36 months = 9k total income return from the car. All the examples work out to exactly £250 per month income btw.
The web site states total "return" is £17,995 which is interesting.
Thus £17,995 - £9000 = £8,955. So to the return the illustrated 33% inclusive of principle the car needs to be sold for £8,999 at term. The cars shown with buy2letcars vinyl appear to be Astra's and website states 15k to 16k cars are being used.
Fleet news states for "Astra Hatch 5Dr 1.6 16V 115 5dr Design 14MY = £15,760", however the residual value is only £5,500 on a 36 month 30,000 mile cycle. End profit would be thus £945 or 2% PA.
To guarantee the return including principle they'd need a whole series of policies in place and a chunk of cash held in escrow to cover cars that vanish, are written off, returned badly damaged etc.
Do the sums and you'll realise that the 33% return is exclusive of principle so you spend £13.5 to get £4.4k.
The testomonals indicate how the scheme works even if the investors haven't quite figured out what happens at term. Take one customer with 12 cars @ 4k per month income = 250 per month per car x 36 months = 9k total income return from the car. All the examples work out to exactly £250 per month income btw.
The web site states total "return" is £17,995 which is interesting.
Thus £17,995 - £9000 = £8,955. So to the return the illustrated 33% inclusive of principle the car needs to be sold for £8,999 at term. The cars shown with buy2letcars vinyl appear to be Astra's and website states 15k to 16k cars are being used.
Fleet news states for "Astra Hatch 5Dr 1.6 16V 115 5dr Design 14MY = £15,760", however the residual value is only £5,500 on a 36 month 30,000 mile cycle. End profit would be thus £945 or 2% PA.
cotney said:
Appreciate that but as you own the asset that is being leased out, even if their company went bust, you would still own the car and could presumably either sell it on to reclaim what you could of your initial investment - or even arrange with the lessee that they will just pay you now instead?
Its not that simple, even if you go through the time and ball ache of getting the car back, it will probably be in a state and/or not worth much, esp as the company is targeting the lower end of market who cant usually get car credit.Also as the poster above said, it would be unlikely that you could claim the car as "yours" it will be an asset of the company and will probably go to the biggest creditor who are usually the revenue! You will be very low on list.
Its like Bernie Madoff investors thinking "hmmm well it does look a bit too good to be true, but worse case scenario is we get our original stake back and we haven't lost anything"
I think there is money to be made out of car leasing/buy to let cars, but it is specialised and niche, with lower realistic returns, as another poster said leasing taxis or other more niche markets.
These guys throw up too many red flags and I presume they are still in action as people keep investing to keep the fund rolling...
Is this just a way of raising finance for a company without a bean at startup?
I'm guessing (but interested in looking at various business models) that they're leasing from a larger company and creating a sub-let for themug investor? Or would they be bulk purchasing from Vauxhall and using the obtained discount to create the difference for the figures calculated above to pass a return onto the investors?
I'm guessing (but interested in looking at various business models) that they're leasing from a larger company and creating a sub-let for the
If you bought a golf/polo diesel , direct from vw en masse , the discounts are large . Let's say they stand in £13k , rent for 3yrs , @ £ 250 pm , = 9k sell the car for £8k = a 33% return over 3 yrs . OK how do they get there profits ? Let's have some constructive answers , not it's Ponzi or a scam , it seems these days let's knock everything the GB tradition ? I think it's quite interesting , OK it might not work , but could it ? Theres some switched on people on Piston Heads be glad to hear from them ...
Tev
Tev
tev said:
If you bought a golf/polo diesel , direct from vw en masse , the discounts are large . Let's say they stand in £13k , rent for 3yrs , @ £ 250 pm , = 9k sell the car for £8k = a 33% return over 3 yrs . OK how do they get there profits ? Let's have some constructive answers , not it's Ponzi or a scam , it seems these days let's knock everything the GB tradition ? I think it's quite interesting , OK it might not work , but could it ? Theres some switched on people on Piston Heads be glad to hear from them ...
Tev
Having a quick look on the net you can lease a VW Polo for £180 inc VAT, so most people would go for thatTev
To attract customers @ £250 would usually entail attracting customers with poor credit and then you have all the risks it entails, otherwise they could go for a cheaper deal
To get a big discount from VW would probably mean having to buy a large amount of cars at a certain spec, you then have the risk of a largish outlay, say £200K. Then you have all the credit/leasing admin and paperwork costs, staff costs, building costs. I think there are far more effective and lower risk/stress methods of investing that sort of money tbh, hence why it is quite novel
tev said:
If you bought a golf/polo diesel , direct from vw en masse , the discounts are large . Let's say they stand in £13k , rent for 3yrs , @ £ 250 pm , = 9k sell the car for £8k = a 33% return over 3 yrs . OK how do they get there profits ? Let's have some constructive answers , not it's Ponzi or a scam , it seems these days let's knock everything the GB tradition ? I think it's quite interesting , OK it might not work , but could it ? Theres some switched on people on Piston Heads be glad to hear from them ...
Tev
Nothing to stop you investing if you think all the responses on here are just imbeciles trying to knock a good business. I suspect all of us would be genuinely interested to hear how you get on.Tev
If you decide not to then perhaps let us know at what point in your due diligence you decide it's a no go?
UpTheIron said:
The article states 200 investors and 400 cars as of march 2014!! Hardly booming business given their extensive campaign on lbc seems to have been running for ever!Their lbc ads have also never mentioned where to get a car... Surely you'd advertise both sides of the business model?!
isleofthorns said:
Their lbc ads have also never mentioned where to get a car... Surely you'd advertise both sides of the business model?!
They lease the cars via this sister company: http://wheels4sure.comAccording to the filings at companies house, wheels4sure registered number 07951186 (Radex Consortium which is the holding company for Wheels4sure, buy to let cars and Rent 2 Own cars)) is non trading, the last accounts filing (with nil returns) being 31/12/2012.
Buy to let cars registered number 7631458 is also non trading, with the last accounts filed 30/6/2013 with a nil return.
There is a company in the group, Rent 2 Own Cars, registered 07631460 - that has filed accounts on the 30/3/13, in summary it shows total assets of £431,914, of which Fixed assets are £107,581, total liabilities of £468,916, with net worth / shareholder funds being negative at -£37,072.
All of the above is available via Companies house should you be interested in investing.
Buy to let cars registered number 7631458 is also non trading, with the last accounts filed 30/6/2013 with a nil return.
There is a company in the group, Rent 2 Own Cars, registered 07631460 - that has filed accounts on the 30/3/13, in summary it shows total assets of £431,914, of which Fixed assets are £107,581, total liabilities of £468,916, with net worth / shareholder funds being negative at -£37,072.
All of the above is available via Companies house should you be interested in investing.
pb1695 said:
According to the filings at companies house, wheels4sure registered number 07951186 (Radex Consortium which is the holding company for Wheels4sure, buy to let cars and Rent 2 Own cars)) is non trading, the last accounts filing (with nil returns) being 31/12/2012.
Buy to let cars registered number 7631458 is also non trading, with the last accounts filed 30/6/2013 with a nil return.
There is a company in the group, Rent 2 Own Cars, registered 07631460 - that has filed accounts on the 30/3/13, in summary it shows total assets of £431,914, of which Fixed assets are £107,581, total liabilities of £468,916, with net worth / shareholder funds being negative at -£37,072.
All of the above is available via Companies house should you be interested in investing.
There only ever seems to be smoke and mirrors with this organisation. The guy behind it has a colourful history from memory and once you scratch below the surface, nothing they say ever seems to stack up.Buy to let cars registered number 7631458 is also non trading, with the last accounts filed 30/6/2013 with a nil return.
There is a company in the group, Rent 2 Own Cars, registered 07631460 - that has filed accounts on the 30/3/13, in summary it shows total assets of £431,914, of which Fixed assets are £107,581, total liabilities of £468,916, with net worth / shareholder funds being negative at -£37,072.
All of the above is available via Companies house should you be interested in investing.
I just dont see any transparency with figures - its "always" £13,500 to buy a car, and you "always" get back £8,500 for it. That just doesnt stack up. Apart from anything dumping an ex lease car owned and driven by a sub-prime leasee who probably hasnt nursed it into auction is going to result in less than 50% of that back, so who pays the shortfall?
Just doesnt seem "right". Wouldnt surprise me if in a couple of years time it all collapses and all these investors are out ££,£££'s but the directors get out with their pockets well lined.
daemon said:
There only ever seems to be smoke and mirrors with this organisation. The guy behind it has a colourful history from memory and once you scratch below the surface, nothing they say ever seems to stack up.
I just dont see any transparency with figures - its "always" £13,500 to buy a car, and you "always" get back £8,500 for it. That just doesnt stack up. Apart from anything dumping an ex lease car owned and driven by a sub-prime leasee who probably hasnt nursed it into auction is going to result in less than 50% of that back, so who pays the shortfall?
Just doesnt seem "right". Wouldnt surprise me if in a couple of years time it all collapses and all these investors are out ££,£££'s but the directors get out with their pockets well lined.
Although if you consider the car actually costs them £11,000, they charge £350 a month and they sell for £6,000.I just dont see any transparency with figures - its "always" £13,500 to buy a car, and you "always" get back £8,500 for it. That just doesnt stack up. Apart from anything dumping an ex lease car owned and driven by a sub-prime leasee who probably hasnt nursed it into auction is going to result in less than 50% of that back, so who pays the shortfall?
Just doesnt seem "right". Wouldnt surprise me if in a couple of years time it all collapses and all these investors are out ££,£££'s but the directors get out with their pockets well lined.
You pay them: £13,500.
You get: (36 x £250) £9,000 + £8,500 = £17,500
They purchase vehicle at £11,000.
They take (36 x £350) £12,600 + 6,000 = £18,600
If they were really smart, they'd take your £13,500 and use it as the deposit for multiple (let's say 4 + some admin/overheads) lease cars which they then pay £150 per month on but lease them back to sub price at £350. This way, over 3 years, they'd be paying out £23,400 (assuming 3 + 36 on 4 vehicles) but charging £52,000 (assuming there's an initial fee involved). This is all from one investors cash - they only have to return £17,500 to the investor so they make circa £34,000 profit (for example).
The Moose said:
Although if you consider the car actually costs them £11,000, they charge £350 a month and they sell for £6,000.
You pay them: £13,500.
You get: (36 x £250) £9,000 + £8,500 = £17,500
They purchase vehicle at £11,000.
They take (36 x £350) £12,600 + 6,000 = £18,600
How is VAT worked into the above? You pay them: £13,500.
You get: (36 x £250) £9,000 + £8,500 = £17,500
They purchase vehicle at £11,000.
They take (36 x £350) £12,600 + 6,000 = £18,600
You show gbp1100 gross income on each car, but surely rentals would be vatable, which would wipe out the gain?
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