Company vehicles
Discussion
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Sixpackpert said:
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
rustyuk said:
Anything with rear seats won't be classed as commercial.
The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
....apart from the millions of crew cab commercial vehicles The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
I think what 2SB was getting at was your sweeping statement about anything with rear seats won't be classed as a commercial vehicle, which is incorrect. All double cab and crew cab pickups have rear seats and are commercial vehicles, hence their popularity.
I did manage to find an official list and the only one that took my fancy was the Range Rover.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-input...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
I also found a few accountant web sites stating that the rules will be clarified in this budget and back tax may be payable on crew cabs.
I'm happy to be proven wrong on this though as I quite fancy a crew cab for carrying the MTB about.
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Sixpackpert said:
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
rustyuk said:
Anything with rear seats won't be classed as commercial.
The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
....apart from the millions of crew cab commercial vehicles The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
I think what 2SB was getting at was your sweeping statement about anything with rear seats won't be classed as a commercial vehicle, which is incorrect. All double cab and crew cab pickups have rear seats and are commercial vehicles, hence their popularity.
I did manage to find an official list and the only one that took my fancy was the Range Rover.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-input...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
I also found a few accountant web sites stating that the rules will be clarified in this budget and back tax may be payable on crew cabs.
I'm happy to be proven wrong on this though as I quite fancy a crew cab for carrying the MTB about.
"You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
Autopilot said:
I gave my 2p on the previous page...........
"You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
I think that what is being referred to is that the fact that there was a court case, where the legality of using a Twin Cab as a commercial vehicle (1 tonne payload not withstanding) has been questioned. The guy taken to court was, I believe, hit for tax."You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
In this budget, the matter is going to be addressed - and if the ruling is that even a 1 tonne payload twin cab is NOT classed as primarily commercial, then there may be a back dating of the tax to 2012.
I wanted a single vehicle that would be used as much for personal as well as business use, so paying the BIK was fine as part of the calculation - but the Twin cab may be out of scope either way in a few weeks. Hopefully not, as it would hurt a large number of people.
T40ORA said:
Autopilot said:
I gave my 2p on the previous page...........
"You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
I think that what is being referred to is that the fact that there was a court case, where the legality of using a Twin Cab as a commercial vehicle (1 tonne payload not withstanding) has been questioned. The guy taken to court was, I believe, hit for tax."You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
In this budget, the matter is going to be addressed - and if the ruling is that even a 1 tonne payload twin cab is NOT classed as primarily commercial, then there may be a back dating of the tax to 2012.
I wanted a single vehicle that would be used as much for personal as well as business use, so paying the BIK was fine as part of the calculation - but the Twin cab may be out of scope either way in a few weeks. Hopefully not, as it would hurt a large number of people.
I'd be genuinely staggered if HMRC could win a case like that as a double cab is deemed a van under their own ruling and classification so any brief could just spout their own policy back at them. While HMRC have been known to retrospectively change the rules and slam people for tax, this would be difficult to back date this one.
I have been hit by a retrospective tax law change before so do appreciate that HMRC are a law unto themselves and anything could be possible!
Autopilot said:
This isn't Speed, Plod and the Law, so not going to say unless you have a link to the source then it never happened, but for my own benefit, do you have any info on that case?
I'd be genuinely staggered if HMRC could win a case like that as a double cab is deemed a van under their own ruling and classification so any brief could just spout their own policy back at them. While HMRC have been known to retrospectively change the rules and slam people for tax, this would be difficult to back date this one.
I have been hit by a retrospective tax law change before so do appreciate that HMRC are a law unto themselves and anything could be possible!
These are the only links that I've found;I'd be genuinely staggered if HMRC could win a case like that as a double cab is deemed a van under their own ruling and classification so any brief could just spout their own policy back at them. While HMRC have been known to retrospectively change the rules and slam people for tax, this would be difficult to back date this one.
I have been hit by a retrospective tax law change before so do appreciate that HMRC are a law unto themselves and anything could be possible!
http://www.businessvans.co.uk/van-news/double-cab-...
http://www.businessvans.co.uk/van-news/double-cab-...
It's an 'interesting' one, and I guess we'll find out in two days' time.
Autopilot said:
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Sixpackpert said:
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
rustyuk said:
Anything with rear seats won't be classed as commercial.
The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
....apart from the millions of crew cab commercial vehicles The Range Rover was the only viable proposition when I was looking.
I think what 2SB was getting at was your sweeping statement about anything with rear seats won't be classed as a commercial vehicle, which is incorrect. All double cab and crew cab pickups have rear seats and are commercial vehicles, hence their popularity.
I did manage to find an official list and the only one that took my fancy was the Range Rover.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-input...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
I also found a few accountant web sites stating that the rules will be clarified in this budget and back tax may be payable on crew cabs.
I'm happy to be proven wrong on this though as I quite fancy a crew cab for carrying the MTB about.
"You won't pay BIK if you don't use it for personal use and is solely used for business and incidental personal use.
It's not true that all double cab pickups are commercial vehicles. To be classified as commercial it must be able to carry over 1000kgs. If you have a hard top fitted, it's given a generic weight value of 45kgs, so this value must be taken in to account. If your double cab pickup can carry 1010kgs, the payload is now less than 1000kgs as you're carrying 45kgs of hardtop and you're now subject to company car tax.
This only applies to double cab pickups as standard cabs are obviously intended for carrying goods and not people where as the double cabs raise the question, 'is its primary purpose for carrying people or goods'?
As manufacturers build the vehicles to certain specifications, I'd be surprised if any modern double cabs would throw any doubt in to the equation. If in doubt, ask the manufacturer."
T40ORA said:
PS I'm now looking at a cheap, reasonably competent, SUV like an Xtrail as a starter vehicle. That will get me started and allow me refine my choice.
Have a look at a Volvo XC60, XC70 or XC90. Get a manual ( the autos can be unreiable ) and a diesel. A petrol already converted to run LPG would also be very useful.Basic maintenance and they will run forever.
I have a cheap LPG'd XC70 bought for well under your budget, and it takes weight with ease thanks to rear self levelling suspension, ( check the expensive rear shocks are not leaking, if they are run away,) and has 200bhp for the fun element . Lots of ground clearance and 4 wheel drive. Will also tow 1700kg's.
I've also had an Xtrail but prefer the Volvo.
Cheers,
Tony
I'll have a look through them properly later but saw the reference to Coca Cola's case with HMRC. I remember this one as the judge ruled one vehicle with two rows of seats to be a van and ruled another van with two rows of seats as a car. The mind boggles!!
I consulted HMRC before my company bought my Amarok and they said that it's the vehicles construction that dictates its purpose. From my own reading, HMRC have said it's also about it's use.
It will be interesting to see how it pans out.....but as HMRC can see revenues being lost, it will be no surprise which way it does go! The issue they'll have is that I know of a few small building companies that use a single double cab rather than have two vans so these guys will feel the most aggrieved if the ruling says these should be taxed as cars.
I consulted HMRC before my company bought my Amarok and they said that it's the vehicles construction that dictates its purpose. From my own reading, HMRC have said it's also about it's use.
It will be interesting to see how it pans out.....but as HMRC can see revenues being lost, it will be no surprise which way it does go! The issue they'll have is that I know of a few small building companies that use a single double cab rather than have two vans so these guys will feel the most aggrieved if the ruling says these should be taxed as cars.
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Talk about over thinking everything! I wasn't thinking about tax, BIK or owt else. I was merely pointing out that "Anything with rear seats won't be classed as commercial" was out by a factor of millions. That's all
That's my point - if you read the rules that's exactly what they state anything with rear seats are excluded, along with working rear seatbelts too I believe. Some websites state the payload rule but these are usally trying to sell you a car classed as a van. The HMRC rules seem pretty explict to me and double cabs are not included unless the rear seats have been removed and real seatbelt mountings have been welded over.
I stand by my point unless someone can post an official document from HMRC saying otherwise
Toaster Pilot said:
Rustyuk, the link that has been posted is the one that I've been basing must assessment on. Very clear (until the current issues with Coca Cola) that a Twin Cab with a clear 1000kg of payload is categorically accepted as a commercial vehicle. Even the dealer websites state this, and they'd by liable for huge compensation claims if they buggered up.
I'll be watching the outcome on the 22nd...
rustyuk said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Talk about over thinking everything! I wasn't thinking about tax, BIK or owt else. I was merely pointing out that "Anything with rear seats won't be classed as commercial" was out by a factor of millions. That's all
That's my point - if you read the rules that's exactly what they state anything with rear seats are excluded, along with working rear seatbelts too I believe. Some websites state the payload rule but these are usally trying to sell you a car classed as a van. The HMRC rules seem pretty explict to me and double cabs are not included unless the rear seats have been removed and real seatbelt mountings have been welded over.
I stand by my point unless someone can post an official document from HMRC saying otherwise
Tell me how this is not a commercial vehicle
T40ORA said:
Toaster Pilot said:
Rustyuk, the link that has been posted is the one that I've been basing must assessment on. Very clear (until the current issues with Coca Cola) that a Twin Cab with a clear 1000kg of payload is categorically accepted as a commercial vehicle. Even the dealer websites state this, and they'd by liable for huge compensation claims if they buggered up.
I'll be watching the outcome on the 22nd...
HMRC said:
The 1 tonne rule only applies to double cab pick-ups, not to any other vehicle.
Other specific types of vehicle are dealt with at EIM23155.
Other specific types of vehicle are dealt with at EIM23155.
.....this is also the source of my information too and yes, crystal clear....until the Coca Cola case. I guess this link here is specific to double cab pickups and not vans, so HMRC may just want their vans to be more, erm, 'van-like'?
As the rules are so clear, my vehicle choice was driven by these, I'd hope that it would be pretty impossible for HMRC to completely overturn it and then try to apply retro-tax to it. I shall wait and see! Hopefully at worse, it will be a small tweak to BIK and NI contributions.
As the rules are so clear, my vehicle choice was driven by these, I'd hope that it would be pretty impossible for HMRC to completely overturn it and then try to apply retro-tax to it. I shall wait and see! Hopefully at worse, it will be a small tweak to BIK and NI contributions.
Phil said:
Fuel duty rise for petrol and diesel cars scheduled for April 2018 scrapped
Vehicle excise duty for new diesel cars not meeting latest standards to rise by one band in April 2018
Tax hike will not apply to van owners
Existing diesel supplement in company car tax to rise by 1%
Vehicle excise duty for new diesel cars not meeting latest standards to rise by one band in April 2018
Tax hike will not apply to van owners
Existing diesel supplement in company car tax to rise by 1%
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