MTD VAT

[Eric Mc]

Would it be worthwhile alerting any media/press about these issues?

[akirk]

Eric Mc said:

Would it be worthwhile alerting any media/press about these issues?

I doubt it...

the reality is that the government has decided on MTD - it will happen, I doubt it will go away...
in terms of the experience in dealing with a government organisation in an IT capacity, it is no real surprise that this has happened as it has - it is how the civil service have always, and probably always will deal with IT - in reality had they been given an extra year, and some decent people to run it, there would have been little issue - equally, had they actually talked to companies about how to build it, it would have been much simpler and with better documentation, but it is getting there and is already considerably better than just a few months ago...

a part of the issue is the lack of intelligence in how it was set up / the assumptions that were made - for example, the assumption was made that the only software that would connect to their API would be SAAS - i.e. the Xeros of this world connecting and providing that connection for their clients - there was no expectation that there would be anyone connecting an in-house system to their API to provide the information on just one set of VAT figures - despite the fact that a big benefit of APIs is exactly that - opening up large organisation systems to smaller outfits with minimal hassle...

As such, our system has to jump through all sorts of hoops designed as though we were then selling our code to others - totally un-necessary.
When we had the validation phone conference with their staff (mandatory before you can go live) we were sent a whole list of things to talk about all regarding how we guaranteed security for our clients / login authorisation / etc. etc. - when we explained that we were one company and would simply pass over 12 bits of info in a API call - they didn't quite know how to deal with it - and the conference call was completed and finished within a few minutes...

so: assumptions / slow process / etc. - but all of that is improving - not sure that taking it to the press would be helpful to anyone, ultimately the staff at HMRC have been really helpful with every question etc. - we have even been given the mobile number of team leaders etc. - they are trying, it is just that some incompetent higher up didn't set out to do this properly... it will get there...

[Eric Mc]

When?

And at what cost?

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Eric Mc said:

When?

And at what cost?

This is a government IT project. You know the answers.

[akirk]

Eric Mc said:

When?

And at what cost?

who knows
and no-one who is making decisions cares!

there is zero consideration as to the cost to business - there has been a decision that this is a path towards government having control / view on tax figures - and so it will take place come what may...

it is very clever because they have basically dumped the cost of doing this on VAT businesses and it is so distributed as a cost that no-one is really picking up on the bill... https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/making-... (not sure if this is the latest - but appears to be current) is the government document on theses issues... the reckoning there is an initial cost of over 140 million, settling down to just under £40m p/a - the higher blip being adoption costs... I think it is very difficult to quantify these costs - for us:
- zero cost prior to this (our system gave us 9 figures to type into the HMRC website)
- implementation cost c. £4k
- zero ongoing costs (unless they keep changing the system!)

so, who know what the real cost will be - the suggestion of just over £100 implementation cost per business / into c. £30 p/a costs seems viable...
however the claim also is that HMRC will bring in over £1 billion in extra revenue through this - now that could be argued to mean that they have been incompetent in collecting tax in the past, or it could be that this allows them to clamp down on dodgy people - however you argue it, I am not sure how moving from a set of figures entered manually into a web screen -> the same figures sent via API will make any difference at all as to how much tax is collected - they will get the same figures / tax... they are only going to be able to start gaining when they start to look automatically into actual company figures to see how those summary figures are made up - and that will be when they join up bank transactions and reported figures etc...

that is the real purpose of MTD - and from an HMRC perspective I can see why they are doing it, and for a company such as ours that plays by the ball, no issues - just would be nicer if they did it properly!

[Eric Mc]

Absolutely VAT MTD is only the tip of the iceberg that HMRC is in the process of assembling.

My expectation that there is one significant aspect of small limited companies that HMRC are gagging to get a proper detailed insight into - and something they have never been able to see heretofore -

Directors' Loan Accounts.

Once they finally get their beady eyes on these the you know what will hit the fan.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

Eric Mc said:

Absolutely VAT MTD is only the tip of the iceberg that HMRC is in the process of assembling.

My expectation that there is one significant aspect of small limited companies that HMRC are gagging to get a proper detailed insight into - and something they have never been able to see heretofore -

Directors' Loan Accounts.

Once they finally get their beady eyes on these the you know what will hit the fan.

Yes, that's what it's all about - HMRC want to get their hands on an electronic copy of your entire books, bank accounts, and the transfer of every penny between them.

[akirk]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Eric Mc said:

Absolutely VAT MTD is only the tip of the iceberg that HMRC is in the process of assembling.

My expectation that there is one significant aspect of small limited companies that HMRC are gagging to get a proper detailed insight into - and something they have never been able to see heretofore -

Directors' Loan Accounts.

Once they finally get their beady eyes on these the you know what will hit the fan.

Yes, that's what it's all about - HMRC want to get their hands on an electronic copy of your entire books, bank accounts, and the transfer of every penny between them.

cue resurgence of cash

[x5x3]

akirk said:

cue resurgence of cash

or Bitcoin.....

[plasticpig]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Yes, that's what it's all about - HMRC want to get their hands on an electronic copy of your entire books, bank accounts, and the transfer of every penny between them.

They would need to get legislation through parliament for that. I can't really see that happening.

[Ken Figenus]

MrJuice said:

Corner shops do not turnover above the threshold, surely?

£500 day turnover x 360 = £180k.

>edit< see its been answered. Can I take this edit opportunity to say/rant that I still hate my enforced Xero! More of the buck is being passed back to the client bill payer. B great business model for the taxman and accountant! Do less, get paid the same!

Haven't done a MTD VAT return with it yet - cant even see the buttons to do that as I hoped it would give me projections and accuracy to gauge how our VAT savings were matching actual predicted liability! Its live feed balance never matches the actual Barclays balance so its all bit chocolate teapot...

I embrace change me - its all for the better, but not necessarily MINE

Edited by Ken Figenus on Friday 31st May 20:54

[Eric Mc]

Believe me, many accountants detest this as much as you.

[Mgd_uk]

Just processed our first MTD Vat return today, was super simple.

We have been using Xero for a number of years now, was a simple case of going to the VAT report in xero, pressing submit and it was done and dusted. They will collect payment in the next 7-10 days via DD.

I was expecting some pain/error messages going by what I had been reading on the xero forums. But, fingers crossed it just worked.

[Piersman2]

Progress for me on MTD.. . Alavara seem to have finally released their Excel add-in based MTD submitter.

I signed up for it about 5 months ago and finally recieved a link this last week to downloadd and install it.

I needed to upgrade my Excel to 2010 for the add in to install, worked fine after that.

I've now registered for MTD and been processed by HMRC so I'm all ready to go when I do my next VAT submission.

I'll maybe have a play with the Alavara add in before that, although the user guides supplied by Alavara seem to indicate it's pretty much what I was looking for, a simple excel based form that can be linked to the numbers you want to post (in a similar format to the old online form).

Thanks Alavara! (assuming it all works of course)

[Vixpy1]

We did our first MTD return on 6th of may for our usual large repayment using the excellent CHM MTD sorftware, 10 days later nothing had turned up in our bank account, I phoned HMRC and they said I would have to wait till 7th june before they could do anything.

A few days ago i checked the return on HMRC website and it was full of Zero's! CHM were excellent and replied straight away that they have sent the correct info and I verified, after several attempts to contact HMRC and being cut off after 20 mins on hold I finally got hold of them and after checking they said yes sorry its a known issue, and that they would recify within 5 days

Checked this morning and its all correct online now

Worth bearing in mind if you have problems

[sgrimshaw]

Just logged in expecting to be forced to use MTD, but it looks like it will still let me submit the "old" way.

I have not signed up for the pilot, on the basis "never volunteer for anything".

So anyone know what will happen if I submit using this form?

[MEC]

You’ll be absolutely fine as MTD is only mandated for periods beginning on or after 1/4/19.

[sgrimshaw]

MEC said:

You’ll be absolutely fine as MTD is only mandated for periods beginning on or after 1/4/19.

Thanks for that ... I should have realised that was the case

[Vixpy1]

Don't make the mistake I did thinking you can register for MTD then still do it the normal way for the last eligable return

Once youm register, it locks you out of the old system !

[FredClogs]

Is the 85k turnover threshold nett or gross of VAT?