Invoice dispute, opinoin sought
Discussion
StevieBee said:
Are you going to be doing any more trade shows with the same stand? If so, you are within you rights to request that the panels be supplied to the correct size so you have them ready to go for the next event.
You can then choose to either pay the invoice or accept the new panels and request a discount on the invoice to compensate for the initial error and enforced usage due to the time constraints.
Oddly enough I thought of you in connection with this thread! ('agency life' lol).You can then choose to either pay the invoice or accept the new panels and request a discount on the invoice to compensate for the initial error and enforced usage due to the time constraints.
Is the OP going to be personally financially affected by this cock-up? As an account exec if we had to issue a credit note it came out of our commission (so more pride than a real hit); if I'd been a director it wouldn't affect my salary. So what does the OP stand to lose by ignoring the whole damn thing and getting on with more profitable work?
(Not a lawyer, but did write an essay about Carbolic Smoke Balls once)
There doesn't need to be a written contract - any contract is binding provided you can prove that it exists. In this case the contract did exist because there was
1) an "invitation to treat" - literally your request for the panels
2) an offer - "this will be £2000"
3)acceptance - "OK"
4)Consideration - the panels
The next bit is trickier. Since you accepted the goods (even though they were wrong) I'd argue that there was at least some value in them - otherwise you wouldn't have used them. If you look at it from that point of view then you do owe the guy something. Working out the reputational damage to your business from having 10mm white borders is going to be extremely tricky, so I think you might have to suck that up.
I would suggest that a reasonable starting point (for you) would be the full price of the panels as invoiced, less the cost of the blank ones you bought, less the cost of labour for trimming and mounting them, and any other actual costs incurred as a result.
I would then submit that to the guy, say to him that you really want to get this sorted out without going legal, and see what he says. If he's not a mug he'll take it as it'll be much cheaper for both of you than a day in court.
There doesn't need to be a written contract - any contract is binding provided you can prove that it exists. In this case the contract did exist because there was
1) an "invitation to treat" - literally your request for the panels
2) an offer - "this will be £2000"
3)acceptance - "OK"
4)Consideration - the panels
The next bit is trickier. Since you accepted the goods (even though they were wrong) I'd argue that there was at least some value in them - otherwise you wouldn't have used them. If you look at it from that point of view then you do owe the guy something. Working out the reputational damage to your business from having 10mm white borders is going to be extremely tricky, so I think you might have to suck that up.
I would suggest that a reasonable starting point (for you) would be the full price of the panels as invoiced, less the cost of the blank ones you bought, less the cost of labour for trimming and mounting them, and any other actual costs incurred as a result.
I would then submit that to the guy, say to him that you really want to get this sorted out without going legal, and see what he says. If he's not a mug he'll take it as it'll be much cheaper for both of you than a day in court.
Edited by davepoth on Thursday 30th August 21:24
flatplane said:
Thanks for the different viewpoints, a mixed bag and some food for thought while the red mist settles!
I can't really give further info without revealing my hand. I am company B - More info: -
The exhibition stand consisted of 30 wall panels, each 1m wide. it is built with an aluminium frame and the panels slot into the frame (you'll know the kind of thing if you've been to a trade exhibition)
The client design (and client supplied artwork) had 22 of these panels covered in graphics making a continuous graphic.
When I collected the printed panels (supposed to collect and set off for install 250 miles away), I noticed they were too narrow (cut at 900mm wide instead of 1000mm (height 2.4m was fine)). This was a significant error as the stand couldn't actually be built with them like that.
The chap that was helping me load them into my van said he knew nothing of them (was just back from holiday). He checked my email with the size (correct size ordered) then checked the artwork (again correct and even had the cutting marks), said he didn't understand how it could be messed up especially as there were guide marks on the artwork. Called his boss and said the panels were wrong. Was told the boss would be back in 20 mins and would call me.
The 'Boss' comes along and I explain how f
ked up this is, he apologises. I ask 'Can we re-do the panels?' He says sorry but no time to re-do and actually his machine is broken and that's why company D printed them. Basically shrugged is shoulders.
My head spinning at this point thinking 'how can I sort this out', money was the last thing on my mind to be honest. (a big mistake on my part judging by some replies above).
I ended up cutting 22 new panels (plain white) to mount his graphics, but instead of one big continuous graphic, it had 100mm wide white stripes between every panel. It didn't look great.
I honestly didn't think he would bill me, I certainly wouldn't the other way round.
Fire away with anything that needs cleared up.
It's really very simple and I've highlighted the only relevant part in bold. You supplied C with the exact measurements you needed your panels to be. They have supplied you with panels/artwork that are 100mm smaller and doesn't fit your stands. That's their fI can't really give further info without revealing my hand. I am company B - More info: -
The exhibition stand consisted of 30 wall panels, each 1m wide. it is built with an aluminium frame and the panels slot into the frame (you'll know the kind of thing if you've been to a trade exhibition)
The client design (and client supplied artwork) had 22 of these panels covered in graphics making a continuous graphic.
When I collected the printed panels (supposed to collect and set off for install 250 miles away), I noticed they were too narrow (cut at 900mm wide instead of 1000mm (height 2.4m was fine)). This was a significant error as the stand couldn't actually be built with them like that.
The chap that was helping me load them into my van said he knew nothing of them (was just back from holiday). He checked my email with the size (correct size ordered) then checked the artwork (again correct and even had the cutting marks), said he didn't understand how it could be messed up especially as there were guide marks on the artwork. Called his boss and said the panels were wrong. Was told the boss would be back in 20 mins and would call me.
The 'Boss' comes along and I explain how f
ked up this is, he apologises. I ask 'Can we re-do the panels?' He says sorry but no time to re-do and actually his machine is broken and that's why company D printed them. Basically shrugged is shoulders.My head spinning at this point thinking 'how can I sort this out', money was the last thing on my mind to be honest. (a big mistake on my part judging by some replies above).
I ended up cutting 22 new panels (plain white) to mount his graphics, but instead of one big continuous graphic, it had 100mm wide white stripes between every panel. It didn't look great.
I honestly didn't think he would bill me, I certainly wouldn't the other way round.
Fire away with anything that needs cleared up.
k up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.Lemming Train said:
It's really very simple and I've highlighted the only relevant part in bold. You supplied C with the exact measurements you needed your panels to be. They have supplied you with panels/artwork that are 100mm smaller and doesn't fit your stands. That's their fk up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.
Great idea - except company B decided to take the panels, knowing they were wrong, and use them. Of course this was for understandably reasons as they had a stand to create. k up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.But you can't use uses someone else's property, and then refuse to pay anything. This argument wouldn't get far at the county court imo. But agreeing a substantial discount, or giving C the opportunity to re-make them for a different job (as suggested by StevieBee) is another matter.
Lemming Train said:
It's really very simple and I've highlighted the only relevant part in bold. You supplied C with the exact measurements you needed your panels to be. They have supplied you with panels/artwork that are 100mm smaller and doesn't fit your stands. That's their fk up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.
I don’t agree. Everyone has the right to sort out a cock up. If a decent amount of time had been allowed for the job, the panels would have been rejected and new ones made. k up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.But because the incorrect ones were used, I don’t think it’s acceptable to pay nothing. I don’t think the printer should have bunged a full invoice in, but I also don’t think it’s right that the OP just ignored this invoice until a CCJ was issued.
RicksAlfas said:
Lemming Train said:
It's really very simple and I've highlighted the only relevant part in bold. You supplied C with the exact measurements you needed your panels to be. They have supplied you with panels/artwork that are 100mm smaller and doesn't fit your stands. That's their fk up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.
I don’t agree. Everyone has the right to sort out a cock up. If a decent amount of time had been allowed for the job, the panels would have been rejected and new ones made.k up and they are 100% at fault as your contract was with them, not their sub-contractor(s). You are within your rights not to pay a penny as they couldn't supply what you needed by the deadline you'd given them. Tell them you'll see them in court. Guaranteed win.Company C accepted the work and the terms and conditions set out by the OP. They did not (and could not) deliver the finished product by the deadline so they've broken the terms of the contract, ergo no monies are owed. They left the OP in a position where he could not get them made elsewhere before the deadline so has 'made do' with the worthless junk that C provided. Sure, you could argue that some negotiable amount is still due because he used their product in his display but you could counter-argue that had he not used anything at all would have resulted in lost business and left C open to a claim for failing to provide what they agreed to.
If the OP was feeling charitable he could offer C a token amount as a goodwill gesture, but as C have not even contacted him about the matter and are brazenly expecting to receive the full original amount then I would not be feeling particularly charitable and instead let them waste a load more money by taking me to court.
EddieSteadyGo said:
StevieBee said:
Are you going to be doing any more trade shows with the same stand? If so, you are within you rights to request that the panels be supplied to the correct size so you have them ready to go for the next event.
That's an interesting suggestion.flatplane said:
Looking for unbiased, 3rd party opinions on this. I’ll try not to make it clear what party I represent, but that may make the information a little sketchy?
Company A – The Client
Company B – The Contractor
Company C – The sub-contractor
Company D – The sub sub-contractor
Company A ask company B to build them an exhibition Stand that involves printing services.
Company B ask company C to supply the printed materials as they do not have printing facilities.
Plans, costs and deadlines are agreed.
Company B collects printed materials from Company C in order to go and build the exhibition stand.
Company B then claims that the printed materials are the wrong size. Plans are checked and they have indeed been printed the wrong size. Company C apologises and explains as it was a rush job they subbed it out to company D.
Company B take the printed materials anyway as there is no time to correct.
Company C send invoice to company B
Company B say they are not paying as they didn’t get what was ordered and claim between extra costs incurred in trying to build the stand with the wrong size materials and a reduced Client fee due to the error, they are already losing more than the value of the invoice.
Company C say invoice is due as the printed materials were accepted.
Company C starting court proceedings. How do you think this will go?
And before anyone asks, there are no written or signed contract terms.
Is that you, Chris? It's probably best to disable the 'remember me' from your main account when using aliases...Company A – The Client
Company B – The Contractor
Company C – The sub-contractor
Company D – The sub sub-contractor
Company A ask company B to build them an exhibition Stand that involves printing services.
Company B ask company C to supply the printed materials as they do not have printing facilities.
Plans, costs and deadlines are agreed.
Company B collects printed materials from Company C in order to go and build the exhibition stand.
Company B then claims that the printed materials are the wrong size. Plans are checked and they have indeed been printed the wrong size. Company C apologises and explains as it was a rush job they subbed it out to company D.
Company B take the printed materials anyway as there is no time to correct.
Company C send invoice to company B
Company B say they are not paying as they didn’t get what was ordered and claim between extra costs incurred in trying to build the stand with the wrong size materials and a reduced Client fee due to the error, they are already losing more than the value of the invoice.
Company C say invoice is due as the printed materials were accepted.
Company C starting court proceedings. How do you think this will go?
And before anyone asks, there are no written or signed contract terms.
RicksAlfas said:
I don’t agree. Everyone has the right to sort out a cock up. If a decent amount of time had been allowed for the job, the panels would have been rejected and new ones made.
But because the incorrect ones were used, I don’t think it’s acceptable to pay nothing. I don’t think the printer should have bunged a full invoice in, but I also don’t think it’s right that the OP just ignored this invoice until a CCJ was issued.
I haven't ignored. I explained my problems with it and asked him to reconsider his invoice.But because the incorrect ones were used, I don’t think it’s acceptable to pay nothing. I don’t think the printer should have bunged a full invoice in, but I also don’t think it’s right that the OP just ignored this invoice until a CCJ was issued.
He flatly refused and said its payable in full as I 'happily' accepted the panels
I'm thinking maybe offer to settle for one third, he can swallow a third and approach D for a third?
Sound reasonable?
JZZ30 said:
I haven't ignored. I explained my problems with it and asked him to reconsider his invoice.
He flatly refused and said its payable in full as I 'happily' accepted the panels
I'm thinking maybe offer to settle for one third, he can swallow a third and approach D for a third?
Sound reasonable?
It isn't the right time to offer anything at the moment. If you have just received the papers, I would suggest you just let the process unfold for the time being. He flatly refused and said its payable in full as I 'happily' accepted the panels
I'm thinking maybe offer to settle for one third, he can swallow a third and approach D for a third?
Sound reasonable?
This is because people tend to be full of bravado at the point they file the papers. Once he receives your reply that you intend to defend it, and a few weeks pass by, he will likely calm down and be more open to a sensible compromise.
I have to say it is a bit strange that you are saying he has done a volte-face from the point you collected the panels and he acknowledged the issue to the point now when he thinks you were happy.
Personally, even if I had felt compelled to accept the panels at the time due to the deadline, I would be calling him on the next day I was back in the office to explain what a complete PITA his mistake had caused.
JZZ30 said:
RicksAlfas said:
I don’t agree. Everyone has the right to sort out a cock up. If a decent amount of time had been allowed for the job, the panels would have been rejected and new ones made.
But because the incorrect ones were used, I don’t think it’s acceptable to pay nothing. I don’t think the printer should have bunged a full invoice in, but I also don’t think it’s right that the OP just ignored this invoice until a CCJ was issued.
I haven't ignored. I explained my problems with it and asked him to reconsider his invoice.But because the incorrect ones were used, I don’t think it’s acceptable to pay nothing. I don’t think the printer should have bunged a full invoice in, but I also don’t think it’s right that the OP just ignored this invoice until a CCJ was issued.
He flatly refused and said its payable in full as I 'happily' accepted the panels
I'm thinking maybe offer to settle for one third, he can swallow a third and approach D for a third?
Sound reasonable?
Lemming Train said:
As he's flatly refused to even discuss the matter then I don't think he'll entertain any offer other than the full amount. Personally I'd be inclined to call his bluff and tell him I'll see him in court but it has a much increased likelihood of finding in your favour if you can provide evidence of numerous attempts to try and reach a compromise with him. Let him continue to turn down all your offers (start by offering really small amounts) and then when he refuses your 'full and final' offer of, say, £250, let him take you to court.
Not sure why you think it makes a big difference to the judge if you have lots of attempts to reach a compromise by offering him a fraction of his invoice? The judge will look first at the facts and apply the law to see who they think is in the right, not to see who wanted to reach a deal.In my experience, at the point you are now, the best approach is to let the process unfold and just say you are happy to use the court's mediation service when the option is offered to you. It is independent and it it is quite effective at trying to bring both parties to reach a reasonable agreement.
JZZ30 said:
Sorry, to be clear, i haven't received any court papers yet, just emails from him saying he is starting proceedings.
Ah I see. In that case you could write to him and say you believe the request to pay the full invoice is unreasonable and that should he file his papers, you will defend the claim robustly.Explain in the letter you are prepared to discuss a compromise and explain the costs you incurred to make the incorrectly sized panels fit into the display.
Rather than offer a compromise value in the letter, I would ask if he is willing to discuss the matter with you in a constructive way. Depending on his reply, you can either try and each an agreement or let him file his papers and then let him simmer for a few weeks.
JZZ30 said:
Sorry, to be clear, i haven't received any court papers yet, just emails from him saying he is starting proceedings.
Could just be sabre-rattling.Yes judges do apply the law, but they will also take a view on who is being reasonable and who is being unreasonable.
My view is that as the goods were used, something is payable. I'd offer him a proportion in full and final settlement (and to seem reasonable in case it goes to court); if he wants to go legal for the rest, so be it. In small claims the claimant usually pays the costs so it will be up to him how lucky he feels.
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