Invoice dispute, opinoin sought
Discussion
Lemming Train said:
Just remembered this thread. Any updates, JZZ30? 
Nothing to update. Be assured I will update though.Berw said:
About the as simple a dispute as you can have in principle, B is liable to C either under the Contract or a quantum merit basis, B's cost are unforeseeable and consequential and C is not liable.
The only question is C will win the battle but it will never have another order from B.
Interesting, thanks. Do you think C still has an obligation to provide B with what was originally ordered?The only question is C will win the battle but it will never have another order from B.
Berw said:
About the as simple a dispute as you can have in principle, B is liable to C either under the Contract or a quantum merit basis, B's cost are unforeseeable and consequential and C is not liable.
The only question is C will win the battle but it will never have another order from B.
That's a nice and succinct way of what I was trying to say!The only question is C will win the battle but it will never have another order from B.
"And before anyone asks, there are no written or signed contract terms" why oh why oh why ... just get some standard terms printed up and send them to everyone whenever an order is placed. I work in construction and its quite incredible that people continue to place orders (not me) with no f
king contract!
TX.
king contract!TX.
Terminator X said:
"And before anyone asks, there are no written or signed contract terms" why oh why oh why ... just get some standard terms printed up and send them to everyone whenever an order is placed. I work in construction and its quite incredible that people continue to place orders (not me) with no fking contract!
This if course brings up the question of who's small print is more important - as both parties will have them. I can issue my T&Cs, eg 'payment due in 30 days yada' but the client's PO will have its own set, eg 'we pay in 90 days yada'. Who wins?king contract!Reams of small print aside, I view 'contract' in the main as 'Please supply X thingies by Y date for Z pounds'.
Simpo Two said:
Terminator X said:
"And before anyone asks, there are no written or signed contract terms" why oh why oh why ... just get some standard terms printed up and send them to everyone whenever an order is placed. I work in construction and its quite incredible that people continue to place orders (not me) with no fking contract!
This if course brings up the question of who's small print is more important - as both parties will have them. I can issue my T&Cs, eg 'payment due in 30 days yada' but the client's PO will have its own set, eg 'we pay in 90 days yada'. Who wins?king contract!Reams of small print aside, I view 'contract' in the main as 'Please supply X thingies by Y date for Z pounds'.
TX.
EddieSteadyGo said:
I love this thread for its alphabetical nomenclature .... 
'Thread seeks candidates for vacancies F to W...'.Terminator X said:
Last person to send them "wins" afaik.
Logical. So the supplier would normally submit a quote, on the back of which are his 30 day terms, and the client, if he wishes to proceed, then issues his purchase order on the back of which are his 90 day terms. Client win?Simpo Two said:
Logical. So the supplier would normally submit a quote, on the back of which are his 30 day terms, and the client, if he wishes to proceed, then issues his purchase order on the back of which are his 90 day terms. Client win?
Supplier sends order acknowledgement?2.5% discount for payment on receipt.
Simpo Two said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
I love this thread for its alphabetical nomenclature ....
'Thread seeks candidates for vacancies F to W...'.Terminator X said:
Last person to send them "wins" afaik.
Logical. So the supplier would normally submit a quote, on the back of which are his 30 day terms, and the client, if he wishes to proceed, then issues his purchase order on the back of which are his 90 day terms. Client win?k all written on the reverse of a "yes pls proceed" PO!TX.
Terminator X said:
Yes as long as they start work without reply and/or send through no other terms in the interim. You may or may not be surprised by the amount of people with fk all written on the reverse of a "yes pls proceed" PO!.
In reality it would go something like this:k all written on the reverse of a "yes pls proceed" PO!.Supplier sends quote with 'Please pay within 30 days'.
Client responds with PO, on the back of which is 3,000 words of T&Cs in very light grey 1pt font in which it says '90 days'.
(note that in the agency world clients invariably want stuff done in 48 hours but their accounts dept takes a week to issue a PO so it's done 'PO to follow)'
Supplier spots the 90 days bit and says 'I'm sorry old chap but my terms are 30 days'
Client says 'Well I'll have a word with accounts but it's out of my control, and anyway, I need it tomorrow'
In practice (15 years of playing David to some corporate Goliaths) I never had a major problem - the wheels of corporatedom may churn slowly but eventually, and assuming you have a good relationship with the client) a payment spits out. It was usually 'end of month following invoice'. I had a couple of small bad debts because I trusted a couple of 'dining table dreamers', but otherwise all good. I ran a pretty tight ship. If you deliver the goods on time and on budget and the client likes you, T&Cs and legalities never come into it.
I’ll tell you what should have happened.......
We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er
)
Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the st hits the fan.
We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er
)Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the s
t hits the fan.
HoHoHo said:
I’ll tell you what should have happened.......
We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er )
Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the st hits the fan.
I think you should be approaching company A as you would likely do a lot better job than than company B.We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er
)Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the s
t hits the fan.Choosing the right contractors doesn't happen by accident and is a massively important skill. And when you get it right you get the type of quality examples you quoted. Nice work!
EddieSteadyGo said:
I think you should be approaching company A as you would likely do a lot better job than than company B.
Choosing the right contractors doesn't happen by accident and is a massively important skill. And when you get it right you get the type of quality examples you quoted. Nice work!
Ouch. But you are right. It doesn't happen by accident. I'm still very annoyed I couldn't sort an alternative in time for my client.Choosing the right contractors doesn't happen by accident and is a massively important skill. And when you get it right you get the type of quality examples you quoted. Nice work!
It wasn't a difficult or complicated job I asked 'C' to do and if it had worked out would have worked well for me going forward.
Ultimately, yes, I got this one wrong. Probably about the worst experience I've had with a supplier over the last 20 years or so.
JZZ30 said:
Ouch. But you are right. It doesn't happen by accident. I'm still very annoyed I couldn't sort an alternative in time for my client.
I wouldn't want to be overly harsh. We all make mistakes. I know I have made lots. Regardless of your potential legal case which will work out one way or the other, it sounds like you are moving forward in the right way
EddieSteadyGo said:
HoHoHo said:
I’ll tell you what should have happened.......
We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er )
Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the st hits the fan.
I think you should be approaching company A as you would likely do a lot better job than than company B.We produce a huge amount in house however like 99% of companies we outsource when required and particularly on specialist products.
Situation 1
Yesterday at Olympia 2:45pm
Graphic being installed into a very large lightbox and its been printed incorrectly, rather than 3m x 2850mm it’s 2850mm x 3m.....put simply it doesn’t fit.
Call supplier, explain problem and by 9pm a new graphic is printed and delivered to my house by courier (the supplier is 260 miles from me). Roll on 6am this morning and one of my guys is at the end of my drive and I pass the parcel to him.
By 8am the new graphic is installed at Olympia and the client is very happy (and a PH’er
)Situation 2
We buy a specialist and bespoke system with graphic however because it’s totally bespoke we decide to ask the supplier to not only supply hardware but also the graphics - it makes sense to us so it’s correct. Some weeks ago we get the system shipped directly to Tokyo for an event and then to be left in our client’s Tokyo office for further use. The client uses the system for the first time and at 10pm last night notifies us of some issues, mostly relating to the artwork.
It transpires the supplier has changed the artwork post approved PDF proof and delivered directly on our behalf and in short it’s not what we ordered or expected, it’s a mess
Call made at 9am this morning. Supplier quickly recognises mistake and reproofs as per our artwork again and will send new correct graphics from the UK to Tokyo FOC.
Now that’s how a good supplier should respond when the s
t hits the fan.Choosing the right contractors doesn't happen by accident and is a massively important skill. And when you get it right you get the type of quality examples you quoted. Nice work!
By no means am I implying we’re better than the OP (that’s a given
) however I’ve always believed any company is only as good as its supply chain.Thought I'd update this.
Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
- sigh**
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
JZZ30 said:
Thought I'd update this.
Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
Glad you got it sorted, he sounds like a right cock!Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
- sigh**
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
If I can help in any way drop me a pm
JZZ30 said:
Thought I'd update this.
Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
WTF !! ?? Just before Christmas i received the 'simple procedure' claims paperwork from the court.
I duly filled it in and returned it. Got date back from the court for late January (just a preliminary hearing, not full) with a note about how we should really try and settle the matter between ourselves before this.
I again opened communications stating it's in neither of our interests to spend a day in court, making an offer and expecting a counter offer, but his reply was just a straight up 'No, we will see what the Judge says'
- sigh**
Day in court. Watch a few cases go through, Judge making a real emphasis that people should just be making deals and not put themselves through this.
Our turn, judge asks is there any chance of settling, he says yes. He will take 50%!
FFS! I agreed and that was the end of it.
Good news, client has come back and asked us to do the stand again. So I'm pleased the we sufficiently managed the situation to keep them happy enough to return.
Not the outcome I was expecting! I bet you were tempted to tell him to FRO after all that aggro but your business head brought you back to your senses.
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