Making tax digital

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Discussion

MaxFromage

1,861 posts

130 months

Friday 23rd August 2019
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Sorry I don't understand your reply! However for example, if I log into their VAT account, there is no return period. HMRC do not have a record of one either and are struggling to get one set up.

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Friday 23rd August 2019
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MaxFromage said:
Sorry I don't understand your reply! However for example, if I log into their VAT account, there is no return period. HMRC do not have a record of one either and are struggling to get one set up.
If HMRC say there isn't an obligation (vat return period) then that is probably the issue.

I can explain more about how the API works if you wish, however.

Stev8s

337 posts

182 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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£150 sounds a lot I use Sage line 50 for my accounts and used 123 Sheets bridging software £19.50 for a year

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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It is also possible to do bridging for free.

egomeister

6,698 posts

262 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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I used this free solution: http://www.comsci.co.uk/100PcVatFreeBridge.html

Pretty easy to use, and seems to have worked fine for me.

768

13,602 posts

95 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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Do any countries have competing tax collection agencies? I'm pretty sure anyone could have had a better go at this.

egomeister

6,698 posts

262 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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768 said:
Do any countries have competing tax collection agencies? I'm pretty sure anyone could have had a better go at this.
I find it inexplicable why they didn't take the same approach as PAYE. HMRC basic PAYE tools cover what you need there for a small business, while bigger companies with more comprehensive software can use the integrated tools in though.

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Saturday 24th August 2019
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egomeister said:
I used this free solution: http://www.comsci.co.uk/100PcVatFreeBridge.html

Pretty easy to use, and seems to have worked fine for me.
There is no reason why any system that HMRC have allowed on the list should be incapable of working.

The Excel option has difficulties for agents where they are doing submissions from more than one computer using an agents services account. It cannot keep the refresh token in track when each computer stores its own tokens. The end result is that each use of the apis requires a new authorisation rather than 1 authorisation every 18 months. The associated phone calls can be a real faff.

However, for a single company there is no reason why it should not work.

All of the MTD systems have some usage of the MTD supplier's server and some data goes into the cloud (the authorisation tokens).

plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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johnhemming said:
All of the MTD systems have some usage of the MTD supplier's server and some data goes into the cloud (the authorisation tokens).
Not true for Desktop direct solutions. The only server they need to talk to is HMRC.

egomeister

6,698 posts

262 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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johnhemming said:
There is no reason why any system that HMRC have allowed on the list should be incapable of working.

The Excel option has difficulties for agents where they are doing submissions from more than one computer using an agents services account. It cannot keep the refresh token in track when each computer stores its own tokens. The end result is that each use of the apis requires a new authorisation rather than 1 authorisation every 18 months. The associated phone calls can be a real faff.

However, for a single company there is no reason why it should not work.

All of the MTD systems have some usage of the MTD supplier's server and some data goes into the cloud (the authorisation tokens).
Just because there is no reason it shouldn't work, doesn't mean that the user is capable of making it work hehe

Given that all I had to do was name some cells in a spreadsheet and then point the software at it, I struggle to see what HMRC are gaining from this at the moment... still at least I can delay having to switch to a new bookkeeping system which should save a few hundred pounds each year until HMRC close the door on this route.

Kudos to all the people who've developed free/low cost solutions around this nonsense!

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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plasticpig said:
Not true for Desktop direct solutions. The only server they need to talk to is HMRC.
How, then, do they handle oauth2?

plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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johnhemming said:
How, then, do they handle oauth2?
http://localhost is a valid redirect URI.


Edited by plasticpig on Sunday 25th August 17:49

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Sunday 25th August 2019
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plasticpig said:
http://localhost is a valid redirect URI.
I accept that point and withdraw my assertion above. It does mean, of course, that the MTD supplier credentials are distributed in the code that handles oauth2 processing.


The Don of Croy

5,976 posts

158 months

Monday 26th August 2019
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plasticpig said:
The Don of Croy said:
My return was handled by a third party a/c group for £150 plus VAT.

Next quarter it will be £100.

Let's me keep Sage Line 50 working for the foreseeable and compliant with HMRC (payment already taken by DD).

What a faff.
Did you use to submit the return yourself? If so there are plenty of options out there that can handle output from Sage and submit a return to HMRC.
No, for the fee they took my data backup and ran it through their software, then submitted the return.

No doubt it could be done cheaper, but after considering many options over many months I just wanted it done (as painlessly as possible).

plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Monday 26th August 2019
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johnhemming said:
I accept that point and withdraw my assertion above. It does mean, of course, that the MTD supplier credentials are distributed in the code that handles oauth2 processing.
Well yes. You can make it more difficult for the hacker using obfuscation, encryption a self modifying code but ultimately it is possible to get the credentials. No really sure what this gains them other than being able to write an unauthorized submission system which could trap the account username and password. They would still have the issue that a second method of authenticated is required.

If they got past that hurdle then they could (assuming the login has admin rather than user privileges) change the bank details for repayments and then submit a fake return which generates a repayment. At this point you would hope that HMRC's anti fraud header system might smell a rat.. Although HMRC have been very cagey about exactly what they are doing with these.


johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Tuesday 27th August 2019
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plasticpig said:
At this point you would hope that HMRC's anti fraud header system might smell a rat.. Although HMRC have been very cagey about exactly what they are doing with these.
My understanding (from a general knowledge of criminal law rather than from HMRC) is that the anti-Fraud headers would assist in prosecutions where fraud had occurred. It is, of course, possible for fraud to occur simply as a result of people making VAT returns that are fraudulent.

I don't think the headers can actually be used to stop data being submitted.

Eric Mc

121,785 posts

264 months

Tuesday 3rd September 2019
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Finally managed to submit a VAT return using the new MTD protocols. A lot of extra work to no obvious advantage to anybody.

snuffy

9,662 posts

283 months

Tuesday 3rd September 2019
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Eric Mc said:
A lot of extra work to no obvious advantage to anybody.
That's not how Government thinking works.

LeighW

4,362 posts

187 months

Tuesday 3rd September 2019
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Eric Mc said:
Finally managed to submit a VAT return using the new MTD protocols. A lot of extra work to no obvious advantage to anybody.
We're 26 and counting (!), no problems to speak of, but more clients needing help than planned, so we need to buy another block of licences for our bridging software. The setting up has been a PITA, and as you say Eric, for no obvious advantage to anyone.

Now we have the joys of the latest HMRC brainwave; the VAT Domestic Reverse Charge starting on 1st October to deal with. rolleyes

johnhemming

70 posts

61 months

Tuesday 3rd September 2019
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I am doing MTD for businesses and agents. Some people take a bit of time setting things up, but I saw one end user who set the system up and submitted their first vat return in 35 minutes without any help. People who are used to it normally take 2-3 minutes on the server.

If we are going to have a digital tax system I think MTD is better than SAF-T.