Can the owner just close a pub?
Discussion
We had the same situation in our village.
A local businessman who had a chain of 5 pubs bought the local pub for the land at the back. He wanted planning permission for three houses, his intention being to de licence the pub and convert to a private dwelling, and build two more homes at the back.
He paid about £200k for it as a pub with the land, but it would have been worth double that as a private dwelling, plus another £600k or so for the other two houses at the back.
He began to close lunchtimes in order to demonstrate that the pub was no longer a going concern and then went to the council licensing authorities to get permission for a change of use, and planning for the other two houses.
They refused on the basis that it was not being opened "full time" and was a financially viable amenity that had been well supported by the village. He had to reopen lunchtimes and continue to operate as a pub, and was given planning for one house at the back on the proviso that he reopened the recently shut Post Office in an extension on the side of the pub.
He built the house, built the extension and reopened the Post Office, reopened the pub lunchtimes, then sold the house and the pub as a going concern.
He still made money but nowhere near as much as he wanted to whilst depriving the village of it's pub.
It is still open and thriving today nearly 10 years later.
The local councillors did a brilliant job of objecting to his plans and proved to the LA that the pub was viable, so it can be done if you have villagers who are prepared to fight it.
A local businessman who had a chain of 5 pubs bought the local pub for the land at the back. He wanted planning permission for three houses, his intention being to de licence the pub and convert to a private dwelling, and build two more homes at the back.
He paid about £200k for it as a pub with the land, but it would have been worth double that as a private dwelling, plus another £600k or so for the other two houses at the back.
He began to close lunchtimes in order to demonstrate that the pub was no longer a going concern and then went to the council licensing authorities to get permission for a change of use, and planning for the other two houses.
They refused on the basis that it was not being opened "full time" and was a financially viable amenity that had been well supported by the village. He had to reopen lunchtimes and continue to operate as a pub, and was given planning for one house at the back on the proviso that he reopened the recently shut Post Office in an extension on the side of the pub.
He built the house, built the extension and reopened the Post Office, reopened the pub lunchtimes, then sold the house and the pub as a going concern.
He still made money but nowhere near as much as he wanted to whilst depriving the village of it's pub.
It is still open and thriving today nearly 10 years later.
The local councillors did a brilliant job of objecting to his plans and proved to the LA that the pub was viable, so it can be done if you have villagers who are prepared to fight it.
ACV/Asset of Community Value.
If you apply soon enough it should be feasible to block an application for Change of Use. Recently missed a deadline to do that when the only neighbourhood pub in my area got closed by the landlord who claimed he was going to build a place for himself to live, but surprise surprise turned it into self-contained student bedsits instead. This was incredibly crooked as it's a conservation area, there's a moritorium on creation of any more HMO or student residences (what used to be a vibrant neighbourhood has all been converted and the whole place is basically a ghost town outside term time).
My advice is to get on it quickly if you value the place.
If you apply soon enough it should be feasible to block an application for Change of Use. Recently missed a deadline to do that when the only neighbourhood pub in my area got closed by the landlord who claimed he was going to build a place for himself to live, but surprise surprise turned it into self-contained student bedsits instead. This was incredibly crooked as it's a conservation area, there's a moritorium on creation of any more HMO or student residences (what used to be a vibrant neighbourhood has all been converted and the whole place is basically a ghost town outside term time).
My advice is to get on it quickly if you value the place.
Thesprucegoose said:
Muzzer79 said:
I can’t see how you could force someone to keep a business going just because you like it?
It’s their business to do with as they please. If they want to close, they close.
there could be local planning restrictions.It’s their business to do with as they please. If they want to close, they close.
But you can’t force them to keep trading as a pub. They could feasibly close the doors and just live there
Muzzer79 said:
But you can’t force them to keep trading as a pub. They could feasibly close the doors and just live there
Not sure that's the case. They can close the doors but as in another pub within a few miles of where I live, the landlord wanted to close and retire there but wasn't allowed to.The building stands boarded up after 4 years or so after the landlord had to move out, and it is now owned by one of the large breweries who have said they will reopen it as a pub.
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/business/2018/...
This has happened local-ish to me, the pub used to have a bowling green which they have no built houses on and they have converted the pub to a house however the local council have said they have to convert it back.
This has happened local-ish to me, the pub used to have a bowling green which they have no built houses on and they have converted the pub to a house however the local council have said they have to convert it back.
blue_haddock said:
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/business/2018/...
This has happened local-ish to me, the pub used to have a bowling green which they have no built houses on and they have converted the pub to a house however the local council have said they have to convert it back.
The first comment regarding the structural deficiencies are interesting...This has happened local-ish to me, the pub used to have a bowling green which they have no built houses on and they have converted the pub to a house however the local council have said they have to convert it back.
The Moose said:
The first comment regarding the structural deficiencies are interesting...
2 sides to every story. IF that note is correct, then WTF? Building unsafe, closes. BUT if it's unsafe, why are you living in it?More significant bit - the refusal due to "moving from a drinking establishment to an eating establishment" etc - since when do local planners / councillrs et all decide how businesses operate? If you want a social club build one, don't try to demand that a drinking pub can't become a food pub. These places might well be socially significant but they are businesses. The government has tried to meddle with commercial things many times in the past, and that's why we have neither an aero or automotive industry of note. God forbid that extends to pubs and beer, that's one area we're still world class at...
Monkeylegend said:
Muzzer79 said:
But you can’t force them to keep trading as a pub. They could feasibly close the doors and just live there
Not sure that's the case. They can close the doors but as in another pub within a few miles of where I live, the landlord wanted to close and retire there but wasn't allowed to.The building stands boarded up after 4 years or so after the landlord had to move out, and it is now owned by one of the large breweries who have said they will reopen it as a pub.
Free house: owned by the publican, he runs a business from it and may live there. His to do with as he pleases.
Tenanted pub: owned by a brewery, leased to a publican, who may live there. Publican runs the business, pays rent. The lease will link the two, so if he wants to stop running the pub, he has to give up the lease and move on.
Greg66 said:
Monkeylegend said:
Muzzer79 said:
But you can’t force them to keep trading as a pub. They could feasibly close the doors and just live there
Not sure that's the case. They can close the doors but as in another pub within a few miles of where I live, the landlord wanted to close and retire there but wasn't allowed to.The building stands boarded up after 4 years or so after the landlord had to move out, and it is now owned by one of the large breweries who have said they will reopen it as a pub.
Free house: owned by the publican, he runs a business from it and may live there. His to do with as he pleases.
Tenanted pub: owned by a brewery, leased to a publican, who may live there. Publican runs the business, pays rent. The lease will link the two, so if he wants to stop running the pub, he has to give up the lease and move on.
Some Gump said:
The Moose said:
The first comment regarding the structural deficiencies are interesting...
2 sides to every story. IF that note is correct, then WTF? Building unsafe, closes. BUT if it's unsafe, why are you living in it?Gassing Station | Business | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff