Copyrighting music

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spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Wednesday 7th August 2019
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Hi all - hope this is the right forum for this.

Ive written apiece of music and want to copyright it. https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/... it says 'Write down a copy of your musical work on paper or store it as an audio recording. Place it within an envelope that’s signed with your name across the seal of the envelope. Post it to yourself by registered post – the time stamp from the post will be vital in the event of copyright dispute. It’s equally important that you DO NOT open the envelope on receipt but store it in a safe place until such time that you need it as part of any legal proceedings.'

That seems simple enough and I plan to send two copies off tomorrow but I wondered if should include a covering letter offically claiming copyright or something like that. Thanks for any advice.

MitchT

15,788 posts

208 months

Wednesday 7th August 2019
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Is this still a thing then? I have tons of sealed envelopes full of demos that I've posted to myself over the years, but I wondered if it was a waste of time, what with everything you save to cloud storage effectively being time-stamped.

spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Thanks Mitch. I dont like sending important stuff to, well, nobody knows where exactly. Servers fail, companies go bust, websites break or disappear completely because money wasn't paid. When and if the cloud breaks or the Russians take it over, you'll still have the paper safely stored as backup smile

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Is there a formal procedure for this? I always assumed that once you wrote something, you automatically possessed copywright.

mr_spock

3,340 posts

214 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Eric Mc said:
Is there a formal procedure for this? I always assumed that once you wrote something, you automatically possessed copywright.
No, but it's about building evidence in case of a breach. There was a case recently where the melody to a song was written down, but the guitar riff intro wasn't, so that got ripped off with no comeback. In theory that means a lot of notation for improvised parts, but the author needs to decide what's key.

Just found it - Brad the Guitologist goes into the Stairway to Heaven case: https://youtu.be/5PNwA97Tbho?t=91

sgtBerbatov

2,597 posts

80 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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MitchT said:
Is this still a thing then? I have tons of sealed envelopes full of demos that I've posted to myself over the years, but I wondered if it was a waste of time, what with everything you save to cloud storage effectively being time-stamped.
But have you read the T's & C's of that cloud storage service? Do you have ownership over to them?

Like every time you share a video or photo on Facebook, through their T&C's, you sign ownership of those to them.

spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Eric Mc said:
Is there a formal procedure for this? I always assumed that once you wrote something, you automatically possessed copywright.
Thats right, you do, the issue is proving it in the case of somebody nicking it. I was going to do the letter separately then thought it would be more 'proveworthy' if it was printed on the back of the sheet of music. How does this look?

To whom it may concern.

This letter dated 8 August 2019 and signed by me spangle 82 of the above address proves that I own and have all rights to the piece of music printed overleaf entitled ('name')

Yours sincerely,

Signed:

Printed:

Date:

spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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PS I presume 'registered post' means 'Signed For' rather than 'Special Delivery'?

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
quotequote all
spangle82 said:
Thats right, you do, the issue is proving it in the case of somebody nicking it. I was going to do the letter separately then thought it would be more 'proveworthy' if it was printed on the back of the sheet of music. How does this look?

To whom it may concern.

This letter dated 8 August 2019 and signed by me spangle 82 of the above address proves that I own and have all rights to the piece of music printed overleaf entitled ('name')

Yours sincerely,

Signed:

Printed:

Date:
Beware of any entity that claims to ensure your copywright is "registered" provided you pay them a fee. As I said, there is no formal organisation in existence for registering copywright. You just make sure you have as much proof as possible that you have written something and the relevant dates. It might just be a sheet of paper with a date written on it - or these days, maybe a computer file.

Obviously, if you can get the work (whatever it is) published with your name credited to it, that is a very powerful piece of evidence that it is, indeed, your work.

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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I'm fairly certain that unless your music is published it will be almost impossible to claim for copyright infringement on the basis that the party being accused of infringement would have had no opportunity to hear what you had written and therefore not be influenced by it. And because your music isn't commercially available and (I assume) you receive no income from it, you can't claim financial loss - though may claim loss of future earnings.

There's no legal remedy for great minds thinking alike and in creative circles, great minds often do.

That's not to say that you shouldn't do the self-addressed envelope thing. It is better than nothing and does afford a degree of recognition of ownership but just don't go thinking it will fully protect you.


spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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Eric and Stevie, you have touched on an interesting point - two people independently thinking of the same thing at roughly the same time.

As you say if its not 'published' then another person could honestly claim he had no idea he was infringing copyright. But then, if I invented something and used it/made money from it, and later someone came up to me and said 'You can't use that or make money from it because it is my invention and here is proof that I invented it X years ago' - surely I'd have to stop, or pay damages if Id made money from it in the meantime...

So publishing is a big criterion in proving copyright and the benefits that come from it. Commercial music is not a world I know much about, would I just ask a publishing company if they would like to to include my work in their next book of music? Or perhaps self-publishing - either in print or online - would get the work in the public domain and therefore more 'provable'. Maybe my local music shop would like to sell it?!

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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spangle82 said:
Eric and Stevie, you have touched on an interesting point - two people independently thinking of the same thing at roughly the same time.

As you say if its not 'published' then another person could honestly claim he had no idea he was infringing copyright. But then, if I invented something and used it/made money from it, and later someone came up to me and said 'You can't use that or make money from it because it is my invention and here is proof that I invented it X years ago' - surely I'd have to stop, or pay damages if Id made money from it in the meantime...

So publishing is a big criterion in proving copyright and the benefits that come from it. Commercial music is not a world I know much about, would I just ask a publishing company if they would like to to include my work in their next book of music? Or perhaps self-publishing - either in print or online - would get the work in the public domain and therefore more 'provable'. Maybe my local music shop would like to sell it?!
There are a great many examples of someone inventing something only for someone else to get the patent first - TV, Telephone, Lightbulb....

Creative protection is notoriously tricky because - as the theory goes - there is no such thing as an original idea; creators are always inspired by something, whether consciously or otherwise.

From what I know (my friend is a published songwriter), for a songwriter, a publisher is of more use than an agent. But you'll only get a publisher if there was genuine desire to see your music sell (I sense from your post that you really just want to keep this for something later). Self publishing is possible - get something produced and then stick out there (iTunes, etc). You need to register your piece with the Performing Rights Society who'll issue a number. I think you need to do this via a company which you can set up yourself - even if it's just as a sole trader. Once you have the number, the music is then 'published'.

I'm catching up with my songwriter friend at the weekend so will ask if he has any other advice.


spangle82

Original Poster:

318 posts

238 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
From what I know (my friend is a published songwriter), for a songwriter, a publisher is of more use than an agent. But you'll only get a publisher if there was genuine desire to see your music sell (I sense from your post that you really just want to keep this for something later). Self publishing is possible - get something produced and then stick out there (iTunes, etc). You need to register your piece with the Performing Rights Society who'll issue a number. I think you need to do this via a company which you can set up yourself - even if it's just as a sole trader. Once you have the number, the music is then 'published'.

I'm catching up with my songwriter friend at the weekend so will ask if he has any other advice.
That would be great, thank you!

I never intended to write a piece of music, one day a phrase emerged, then the next day another, then another until over a few days it became a standalone piece. It just works. I have no plans to make money from it myself, but I dont want anyone to steal it and if I hear it in a TV series or film next year without being able to say 'Oi, send money!' I'll be very annoyed. Happy to get a number from PRS - that seems to constitute 'published' so given what was said before, that must automatically put it in the public domain?

As a famous example, the sheet music for Moonlight Serenade on my desk says at the bottom: '(C) 1939 (Renewed 1967) EMI ROBBINS CATALOG INC. All Rights Controlled by EMI ROBBINS INC. (Publishing) and WARNER BROS. PUBLICATIONS US INC (Print). All Rights Reserved'. I presume that does the trick, though what paperwork in a vault backs it up I don't know. I'm surprised the Miller estate doesn't own it. I guess if you own music that famous you dont need a PRS number!

Thanks again Steve!

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Thursday 8th August 2019
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If you can record it, why not just upload it to YouTube with a full description and a static visual with the title of the track and composer name?

Or upload it to Soundcloud.

Or both.

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Friday 9th August 2019
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spangle82 said:
StevieBee said:
From what I know (my friend is a published songwriter), for a songwriter, a publisher is of more use than an agent. But you'll only get a publisher if there was genuine desire to see your music sell (I sense from your post that you really just want to keep this for something later). Self publishing is possible - get something produced and then stick out there (iTunes, etc). You need to register your piece with the Performing Rights Society who'll issue a number. I think you need to do this via a company which you can set up yourself - even if it's just as a sole trader. Once you have the number, the music is then 'published'.

I'm catching up with my songwriter friend at the weekend so will ask if he has any other advice.
That would be great, thank you!

I never intended to write a piece of music, one day a phrase emerged, then the next day another, then another until over a few days it became a standalone piece. It just works. I have no plans to make money from it myself, but I dont want anyone to steal it and if I hear it in a TV series or film next year without being able to say 'Oi, send money!' I'll be very annoyed. Happy to get a number from PRS - that seems to constitute 'published' so given what was said before, that must automatically put it in the public domain?

As a famous example, the sheet music for Moonlight Serenade on my desk says at the bottom: '(C) 1939 (Renewed 1967) EMI ROBBINS CATALOG INC. All Rights Controlled by EMI ROBBINS INC. (Publishing) and WARNER BROS. PUBLICATIONS US INC (Print). All Rights Reserved'. I presume that does the trick, though what paperwork in a vault backs it up I don't know. I'm surprised the Miller estate doesn't own it. I guess if you own music that famous you dont need a PRS number!

Thanks again Steve!
So, had a chat with my my bud. My original suggestions are valid. He said that unless you are an aspiring writer then it's highly unlikely you'd get a publisher to take you on on the basis of a single piece. Making money from music is difficult so professional publishers tend to be highly selective in who they take on as clients. But the only way you'd stand any chance of winning a copyright infringement is to demonstrate that the accused party had the opportunity to listen to your music or see the sheet music so you need to record it and publish it.

He suggested getting it on any of the music library services. These are services that film makers and others use to obtain 'royalty free' music, paying a fee for the piece chosen, which you as a song writer will get a slice of.

The ones worthy of looking at are Pond5, Epidemic Sound and Filmstro....but there are many others. I believe you don't need the PRS number for these (but check that when you speak to them). You will need to record the piece to a certain standard and have the file properly coded so you will need to speak to a competent recording studio (I know one if you need an introduction).

You can of course just video yourself playing it on a piano and sticking the video on You Tube but what's to stop someone saying that they wrote it ten years before you uploaded the video!

Hope that's of help.







MitchT

15,788 posts

208 months

Friday 9th August 2019
quotequote all
StevieBee said:
You can of course just video yourself playing it on a piano and sticking the video on You Tube but what's to stop someone saying that they wrote it ten years before you uploaded the video!
The fact that they can't produce any evidence to prove their claim, perhaps? Plus, if posting something on YouTube, Soundcloud, etc. isn't water tight then how would the music library services you've described be any better? Someone could still acquire your work from one of these services and claim it's a rip-off of something they did years prior.

thebraketester

14,192 posts

137 months

Friday 9th August 2019
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I am sure getcarter will be along shortly but it might be worth a PM to him.

Katzenjammer

1,081 posts

177 months

Friday 9th August 2019
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You have copyright the moment you create an artistic or literary or musical work. However copyright is just that - a right to prevent others from copying. If you put the music or score in an envelope and merely send it to yourself this is dated evidence that you are the creator and owner. But if you do nothing else with that music then strictly speaking no one will ever see it or hear it to copy it in which case if someone comes up with the same tune independently then they will not have infringed your copyright.


In the UK there is no official government backed copyright repository however there is in the USA (see the example above re. Moonlight Serenade)


Patents for inventions are different in that they are a monopoly right. They can infringed by persons who come up with the same invention independently, i.e. actual “copying” does not need to take place for the right to be infringed.

Edited by Katzenjammer on Friday 9th August 19:19

Grrbang

724 posts

70 months

Saturday 10th August 2019
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This is called 'poor man's copyright' and I believe its evidential benefit in the UK is very vulnerable to attack by an opponent if they solicitor up. This is because you're mailing it to yourself, and promising the court that you didn't tamper with the contents and re-seal.

If you want belt and braces, I would think you need independence: perhaps a date generated by an independent server (e.g. cloud/platform), or registering the copyright with a trusted third party register.

The UK government doesn't maintain a copyright register that I know of, but there are third party registers.

There are private companies that operate copyright registers - don't know if anyone has any experience with them? If you want the register to be super-reliable/permanent, then you may wish to register at a government IP (intellectual property) office. The UK doesn't do this, but the US and other countries operate such copyright registers. Some actual solicitors suggested this in IP blog comments, because they don't see why the UK courts wouldn't accept an officially registered US copyright as evidence in a UK infringement case ( http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2009/08/getting-in-fl...).

The above helps with establishing date. Authorship must also be established. I would imagine that dated records of the creative process would help with proving authorship, e.g. the raw recordings used in creating the music.

However, I am not a copyright lawyer & this isn't proper legal advice. A solicitor who is up to date on the case law and has experience may know what's best.

Edited by Grrbang on Saturday 10th August 17:20

Grrbang

724 posts

70 months

Saturday 10th August 2019
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Grrbang said:
This is called 'poor man's copyright' and I believe its evidential benefit in the UK is very vulnerable to attack by an opponent if they solicitor up. This is because you're mailing it to yourself, and promising the court that you didn't tamper with the contents
To give an example, they might argue that you could have posted the envelope to yourself unsealed, then you added the ‘evidence’ and sealed it yesterday. So even a tamper proof envelope is not necessarily a solution.