Copyrighting music
Discussion
Grrbang said:
Grrbang said:
This is called 'poor man's copyright' and I believe its evidential benefit in the UK is very vulnerable to attack by an opponent if they solicitor up. This is because you're mailing it to yourself, and promising the court that you didn't tamper with the contents
To give an example, they might argue that you could have posted the envelope to yourself unsealed, then you added the ‘evidence’ and sealed it yesterday. So even a tamper proof envelope is not necessarily a solution.The point is though is that if others are denied the ability to listen to the piece of music, copyright infringement cannot be claimed. You have to publish it. Otherwise, you'd have armies of people producing riffs, beats or entire tunes and sitting on them until someone published something that sounded similar.
Worth also noting that copyright in the UK only covers the UK (and the EU up to when we leave). Global copyright is obtainable via WIPO.
Grrbang said:
To give an example, they might argue that you could have posted the envelope to yourself unsealed, then you added the ‘evidence’ and sealed it yesterday. So even a tamper proof envelope is not necessarily a solution.
Whenever I've done this I've glued a thick band of paper around the envelope - covering the seal and wide enough to have the address written on and stamps and postmark applied to it. There's no way the "evidence" could be added later.
Just a copy/paste reply, not much use I think...
'Thank you for having contacted us.
Your question refers to copyright. Our role in the field of copyright consists in assisting governments in developing IP laws and standards and in providing a discussion forum for our Member States.
We are not in the position to provide private legal advice to individuals with regard to their case. We therefore suggest you consult a practicing lawyer for assistance. You may find a list of specialized lawyers on the web site of your National Copyright Office.
However, the following information may be helpful to you:
According to the Berne Convention, copyright protection is granted to works automatically from the moment of their creation or fixation and does not depend on any formalities or registration in the 177 countries party to that Convention. Thus, WIPO does not offer any kind of copyright registration service.
The world wide registration is not possible as it is does not exists
At the same time, as copyright protection falls under national legislation, some countries provide for a voluntary registration of copyright, which in particular serves as prima facie evidence in a court of law with reference to disputes relating to copyright.
You may wish to visit our WIPO Lex facility for information on law currently in force in a given country or contact the National Copyright Office of your country for assistance.
Additional resources include:
FAQs on Copyright
Case studies for individuals and SMEs as copyright owners and users
WIPO booklets "Understanding Copyright and Related Rights" and “Basic notions of Copyright and Related Rights”
We hope this is helpful. Thank you for your understanding.
Best regards'
'Thank you for having contacted us.
Your question refers to copyright. Our role in the field of copyright consists in assisting governments in developing IP laws and standards and in providing a discussion forum for our Member States.
We are not in the position to provide private legal advice to individuals with regard to their case. We therefore suggest you consult a practicing lawyer for assistance. You may find a list of specialized lawyers on the web site of your National Copyright Office.
However, the following information may be helpful to you:
According to the Berne Convention, copyright protection is granted to works automatically from the moment of their creation or fixation and does not depend on any formalities or registration in the 177 countries party to that Convention. Thus, WIPO does not offer any kind of copyright registration service.
The world wide registration is not possible as it is does not exists
At the same time, as copyright protection falls under national legislation, some countries provide for a voluntary registration of copyright, which in particular serves as prima facie evidence in a court of law with reference to disputes relating to copyright.
You may wish to visit our WIPO Lex facility for information on law currently in force in a given country or contact the National Copyright Office of your country for assistance.
Additional resources include:
FAQs on Copyright
Case studies for individuals and SMEs as copyright owners and users
WIPO booklets "Understanding Copyright and Related Rights" and “Basic notions of Copyright and Related Rights”
We hope this is helpful. Thank you for your understanding.
Best regards'
MitchT said:
Whenever I've done this I've glued a thick band of paper around the envelope - covering the seal and wide enough to have the address written on and stamps and postmark applied to it. There's no way the "evidence" could be added later.
If I understand your approach correctly, the other side might argue that you could have only mailed yourself only the band of paper, without any envelope. Then, you stuck the band to an envelope yesterday.spangle82 said:
At the same time, as copyright protection falls under national legislation, some countries provide for a voluntary registration of copyright, which in particular serves as prima facie evidence in a court of law with reference to disputes relating to copyright.
Ok, so your decision comes down to which voluntary register to use, given that our government operates no such register. It's either a foreign government register (e.g. US copyright office - copyright.gov), or a private UK register (e.g. copyrightservice.co.uk). Another option might be lodging with a solicitor. The US copyright office looks intriguing because its fees are slightly lower than the private UK register. It's a trusted institution. UK lawyers cite it as useful for UK cases (see also https://azrights.com/media/news-and-media/2008/09/...). You don't seem to require an attorney to register (but do your homework to avoid making an error).
But the UK companies could work too, so it's worth checking both.
StevieBee said:
You have to publish it. Otherwise, you'd have armies of people producing riffs, beats or entire tunes and sitting on them until someone published something that sounded similar.
Not sure I agree. Copyright is created when the work is performed OR recorded on some kind of medium. I'm not aware of any requirement to publish.
I also believe that copyright is infringed by copying, whether performed or not.
A quick search seems to back this up.
Grrbang said:
StevieBee said:
You have to publish it. Otherwise, you'd have armies of people producing riffs, beats or entire tunes and sitting on them until someone published something that sounded similar.
Not sure I agree. Copyright is created when the work is performed OR recorded on some kind of medium. I'm not aware of any requirement to publish.
I also believe that copyright is infringed by copying, whether performed or not.
A quick search seems to back this up.
The scenario here is that the OP writes and records a piece of music. Does nothing with it other than post it to himself with no apparent intended purpose for the time being.
Someone else writes something that sounds very similar and it gets to number 1. Unless that person had the ability to listen (or see the score) to what the OP had written, there is no way that they could have deliberately copied it and thus breeched the copyright. And because the OP is not earning from his music, there is no material loss other than any tenuous claim on future earning.
The only way a copyright claim would stand a chance is if the music is in the public domain - i.e published. You cannot claim loss on the basis of coincidence.
And don't forget that there is no copyright authority in the UK so no framework of legislation prevails that would otherwise administer the processes involved. This is why the only cases that reach court are those where there is abundant evidence to show that someone has pinched someone else idea or work.
I gave an analogy earlier that demonstrated the point in that there are many examples of inventions wrongly attributed certain people because they got the patent first. A patent is slightly different to copyright but the analogy is a relevant one.
Edited by StevieBee on Wednesday 14th August 08:27
Grrbang said:
Ok, gotcha - how do you prove that someone else has copied it if you always kept it to yourself!
Correct.To be honest, it's often difficult to prove breech even if a song is in the public domain.
In the late 80s and 90s as sampling became commonplace, it was fairly obvious. Then it wasn't so much as stealing the idea as stealing the physical music (or portion of) so artists were banged to rights. The difficulty comes when an original piece is written that is 'inspired' by something else because all creativity is born from inspiration.
The opening riff to Dr Feelgood's Roxette is exactly the same (though slower) to the opening of the theme tune to Joe 90.
Goyte's 'Someone I used to know' is Baa Baa Black Sheep by a different name (and Lyrics)
Are these rip-off copies or would the artists claim inspiration?
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