Is this fraudulent?

[Collaudatore]

Firstly, I did try Google, but to no avail.

A supplier of ours has sent a letter stating that "his business is now known as **** and the new bank details are ***"

Upon further review, I find this is not corporate rebranding exercise, but is in fact a new company with a very similar name.

Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.

It is his company, but I think he is trying to pull a fast one, and these charges ought to be paid to the old company.

Hope I've explained that sufficiently well

If anyone has any links to support their findings, that'd be smashing too

Thanks PH

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Collaudatore said:

Firstly, I did try Google, but to no avail.

Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.

Has the previous entity gone into some form of insolvency?

[Ham_and_Jam]

Collaudatore said:

Firstly, I did try Google, but to no avail.

A supplier of ours has sent a letter stating that "his business is now known as **** and the new bank details are ***"

Upon further review, I find this is not corporate rebranding exercise, but is in fact a new company with a very similar name.

Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.

It is his company, but I think he is trying to pull a fast one, and these charges ought to be paid to the old company.

Hope I've explained that sufficiently well

If anyone has any links to support their findings, that'd be smashing too

Thanks PH

If he has recently incorporated then it is normal to inform your suppliers and customers of your new business name / bank details.

The change in name of his company is more than likely going to be the same just with a ltd suffix. Nothing dodgy about that, unless I haven’t read your post properly.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Did you contact the supplier to make sure he did send the change of bank details?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Ham_and_Jam said:

If he has recently incorporated then it is normal to inform your suppliers and customers of your new business name / bank details.

The change in name of his company is more than likely going to be the same just with a ltd suffix. Nothing dodgy about that, unless I haven’t read your post properly.

Apart from rendering invoices for goods/services from one entity and asking to be paid into another.

[Mr Pointy]

Are you certain that it's the original company that have ben in contact? It's a classic scam method:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53309873

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Mr Pointy said:

Are you certain that it's the original company that have ben in contact? It's a classic scam method:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53309873

That's what I was inferring above.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

I've been through exactly this.

We were XYZ Systems Ltd. We had to go into administration, so we wrote to all our customers & supplier to say in future we would be XYZ Something Else Ltd.

What we didn't do was steal the admin funds by invoicing for old co's stuff from new co.

[Simpo Two]

50p says he's winding up the old company (if it is a company) to shake off creditors, and diverting income to the new one so he gets to keep as much cash as possible. You should pay whichever company did the work. If it's gone pop, you win

[Collaudatore]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I've been through exactly this.

We were XYZ Systems Ltd. We had to go into administration, so we wrote to all our customers & supplier to say in future we would be XYZ Something Else Ltd.

What we didn't do was steal the admin funds by invoicing for old co's stuff from new co.

Yes I believe this is what he is trying to achieve.

It is definitely the same person running the (new) company.
What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.
Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

[CRA1G]

Simpo Two said:

50p says he's winding up the old company (if it is a company) to shake off creditors, and diverting income to the new one so he gets to keep as much cash as possible. You should pay whichever company did the work. If it's gone pop, you win

How does he win? He would still owe the old company any outstanding invoices and if in administration would be perused for any outstanding monies by the liquidator or the receiver.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Collaudatore said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

I've been through exactly this.

We were XYZ Systems Ltd. We had to go into administration, so we wrote to all our customers & supplier to say in future we would be XYZ Something Else Ltd.

What we didn't do was steal the admin funds by invoicing for old co's stuff from new co.

Yes I believe this is what he is trying to achieve.

It is definitely the same person running the (new) company.
What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.
Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

The key word in my little story is steal 😊

[Zetec-S]

IANAL but surely it's a case that you have a contract with the original company. Paying the new company could potentially leave you open to being pursued by the original company (or it's administrators if that's the way it's going?) and having to sort out that mess...?

We had something similar, supplier set up a new company and tried to get us to pay for works which the old company had done as it was about to go into administration...

[sleepezy]

Collaudatore said:

What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.

It is unusual - but it is possible that as part of a prepack he bought all the trade including any unbilled 'WIP'

Collaudatore said:

Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

Normally pretty quickly - a few days at most - you could search the London Gazette or ask for the appointment docs (the latter particularly given you know he's trying to bill from a different company). I'd want to see an executed sale agreement from oldco to newco (or at least have confirmation from the administrator) to cover my back otherwise you could have the administrator come after you again (assuming your presumption is correct)

[Gary C]

Collaudatore said:

Yes I believe this is what he is trying to achieve.

It is definitely the same person running the (new) company.
What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.
Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

Can you contact the new director ?

[Collaudatore]

sleepezy said:

Collaudatore said:

What I am questioning is whether billing the old companies services from the new company is legal or not.

It is unusual - but it is possible that as part of a prepack he bought all the trade including any unbilled 'WIP'

Collaudatore said:

Companies House does not register the old company as "in administration", but there is a recent director change noted there. How quickly does Companies House update for this sort of change?

Normally pretty quickly - a few days at most - you could search the London Gazette or ask for the appointment docs (the latter particularly given you know he's trying to bill from a different company). I'd want to see an executed sale agreement from oldco to newco (or at least have confirmation from the administrator) to cover my back otherwise you could have the administrator come after you again (assuming your presumption is correct)

Okay, so if it is a matter of a few days, then oldco is definitely not in administration.
Further information. Oldco - he is still a director. Newco, someone who could be his wife/sister is the director.
There is also another resignation of someone who could be a wife (or sister) about 5 years ago.


Man gets separated from wife.
Man (edit) *stops trading* from old company and his new wife or sister creates new company.
Man bills for services performed by Oldco from Newco to avoid paying wife during divorce?
Meanwhile PHer gets free stuff...?

Edited by Collaudatore on Tuesday 21st July 09:43

[Collaudatore]

Gary C said:

Can you contact the new director ?

Sorry, I should have been clearer. It is a resignation of a director.

[sgrimshaw]

If you have any doubts then .....

Tell him that you are unable to pay a different company than that named on the invoice.

He should arrange for the original invoices to be credited by the old company and re-invoiced by the new company.

[Collaudatore]

sgrimshaw said:

If you have any doubts then .....

Tell him that you are unable to pay a different company than that named on the invoice.

He should arrange for the original invoices to be credited by the old company and re-invoiced by the new company.

It's the other way around though. He has performed work under the old company name and did not bill us for several months. Now the new company is billing us.

[sgrimshaw]

Collaudatore said:

It's the other way around though. He has performed work under the old company name and did not bill us for several months. Now the new company is billing us.

So presumeably you either sent a PO or had a contract with Old Company to provide Goods or Services?

You have no such agreement or liability to pay New Company.

Just say for example, you did pay the New Company's invoices .... what will your defence be to Old Company for not paying their invoices should they eventually submit them?

Are these VAT Invoices?