Is this fraudulent?
Discussion
sgrimshaw said:
So presumeably you either sent a PO or had a contract with Old Company to provide Goods or Services?
You have no such agreement or liability to pay New Company.
Just say for example, you did pay the New Company's invoices .... what will your defence be to Old Company for not paying their invoices should they eventually submit them?
Are these VAT Invoices?
Yes, these are VAT invoices. You have no such agreement or liability to pay New Company.
Just say for example, you did pay the New Company's invoices .... what will your defence be to Old Company for not paying their invoices should they eventually submit them?
Are these VAT Invoices?
Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
Unfortunately, as a company...how do I put this? There are individuals within the company who will pick up the phone and say "Aye Jimbob, we need this here, now" and so Jimbob rocks up and expects to get paid as he delivered what he was asked - small companies/small suppliers/informal processes.
So with that in mind, we do not have a black and white contract with either Newco or Oldco, but it is plain that the contract was not with Newco as the company was not yet incorporated when the services were (as stated on the invoice) performed.
Collaudatore said:
Yes, these are VAT invoices.
Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be provided by NewCo and invoiced by NewCo?
It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.
Edited to make more sense as written in a hurry.
Edited by sideways sid on Tuesday 21st July 17:02
sideways sid said:
Collaudatore said:
Yes, these are VAT invoices.
Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be requested by NewCo and paid for by NewCo?
It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.
Collaudatore said:
sideways sid said:
Collaudatore said:
Yes, these are VAT invoices.
Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be requested by NewCo and paid for by NewCo?
It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Collaudatore said:
sideways sid said:
Collaudatore said:
Yes, these are VAT invoices.
Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
I guess this is the sentence that could cause trouble if it ever got to court.Defence in the event I didn't capture this? I would send Oldco a copy of the letter and the invoices received and proof of payment to the bank account details on the (Newco) invoice and tell them to go figure it themselves.
Was the letter from OldCo introducing NewCo, explaining that future work would be requested by NewCo and paid for by NewCo?
It sounds more like letter was from NewCo, requesting that historic invoices issued by OldCo are paid to NewCo, which probably has little value legally and would not help your defence.
OldCo May have sold the ‘credit’ to the NewCo? OldCo may have needed quick Cashflow.
It depend what sort of relationship and how important OldCo / NewCo are to you.
If you can get confirmation from OldCo to pay NewCo and that is what you want to do pay up, if you don’t want to pay then don’t.
It depend what sort of relationship and how important OldCo / NewCo are to you.
If you can get confirmation from OldCo to pay NewCo and that is what you want to do pay up, if you don’t want to pay then don’t.
Sounds like yes.
Check the VAT registration of Newco first; when was it first registered, if it's very new it might not be registered, that's a serious fraud.
Then ask the question directly to both companies "what's going on?" Remember, the truth is the truth is the truth, it doesn't change.
You have a debt to Oldco, if you pay Newco and it's not Kosher, you'll still owe Oldco.
Don't get involved in someone else's dodgy carry on.
And so on
Check the VAT registration of Newco first; when was it first registered, if it's very new it might not be registered, that's a serious fraud.
Then ask the question directly to both companies "what's going on?" Remember, the truth is the truth is the truth, it doesn't change.
You have a debt to Oldco, if you pay Newco and it's not Kosher, you'll still owe Oldco.
Don't get involved in someone else's dodgy carry on.
And so on
OP, what this seems to boil down to is:
you originally contracted with OldCo Ltd for a bunch of stuff.
the stuff was done by OldCo Ltd a few months ago.
NewCo Ltd now pops up without any preamble or explanation, and bills you for the stuff done by OldCo.
It stinks.
Ask questions of OldCo. Ask NewCo for documentary evidence of the basis on which you should now pay NewCo (ie some sort of legal agreement between OldCo and NewCo). Was OldCo factoring its debts at all?
you originally contracted with OldCo Ltd for a bunch of stuff.
the stuff was done by OldCo Ltd a few months ago.
NewCo Ltd now pops up without any preamble or explanation, and bills you for the stuff done by OldCo.
It stinks.
Ask questions of OldCo. Ask NewCo for documentary evidence of the basis on which you should now pay NewCo (ie some sort of legal agreement between OldCo and NewCo). Was OldCo factoring its debts at all?
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Collaudatore said:
Recently he has sent us a bunch of invoices predating the date of his companies incorporation.
So you didn't actually mean the above? You mean the supply was prior. jammy-git said:
1. What documents do you have from OldCo? Any invoices, quotes, contracts, etc?
2. What sort of relationship do you want with NewCo moving forward?
Invoices yes, but absolutely nothing else, other than a letter explaining that OldCo is now known as NewCo (which it is not, it is a new company)2. What sort of relationship do you want with NewCo moving forward?
As far as we're concerned, they're not the only show in town, but we chose them to supply our services for a reason, so we'd like to continue doing business with them in the future.
dartissimus said:
Sounds like yes.
Check the VAT registration of Newco first; when was it first registered, if it's very new it might not be registered, that's a serious fraud.
...
You have a debt to Oldco, if you pay Newco and it's not Kosher, you'll still owe Oldco.
...
Don't get involved in someone else's dodgy carry on.
My thoughts exactly Check the VAT registration of Newco first; when was it first registered, if it's very new it might not be registered, that's a serious fraud.
...
You have a debt to Oldco, if you pay Newco and it's not Kosher, you'll still owe Oldco.
...
Don't get involved in someone else's dodgy carry on.
Names don't matter. Neither does the VAT registration number for that matter. If it's a different company registration number then that's a problem. It used to be possible to switch company names between registration numbers. Not up on the current state of the law on doing that but there aren't many good reason for doing it and plenty of dodgy ones.
Collaudatore said:
jammy-git said:
1. What documents do you have from OldCo? Any invoices, quotes, contracts, etc?
2. What sort of relationship do you want with NewCo moving forward?
Invoices yes, but absolutely nothing else, other than a letter explaining that OldCo is now known as NewCo (which it is not, it is a new company)2. What sort of relationship do you want with NewCo moving forward?
As far as we're concerned, they're not the only show in town, but we chose them to supply our services for a reason, so we'd like to continue doing business with them in the future.
In essence, do you have anything that proves the work was performed by the OldCo, rather than the NewCo? As far as I'm aware, it is possible to trade before formally registering a company and completing the VAT registration.
If you wish to have an on-going relationship with them, I'd simply ask for a director from the OldCo to confirm in writing that the work was performed by the NewCo, and then pay the invoices.
jammy-git said:
If you wish to have an on-going relationship with them, I'd simply ask for a director from the OldCo to confirm in writing that the work was performed by the NewCo, and then pay the invoices.
It would be "safer" to pay to oldco and tell the newco that he would need to persue the oldco for the money. If he is still in charge of both companies and there is nothing funny going on, it should he straight forward for him. If he is adamant that you pay the new company, as he does not want to get paid by the oldco to the newco, then that tells you all you need to know, and he is trying to pass liability or risk on to you.Unless I have missed something, I cannot see any benefit for you to not pay the oldco that did the work.
KrazyIvan said:
jammy-git said:
If you wish to have an on-going relationship with them, I'd simply ask for a director from the OldCo to confirm in writing that the work was performed by the NewCo, and then pay the invoices.
It would be "safer" to pay to oldco and tell the newco that he would need to persue the oldco for the money. If he is still in charge of both companies and there is nothing funny going on, it should he straight forward for him. If he is adamant that you pay the new company, as he does not want to get paid by the oldco to the newco, then that tells you all you need to know, and he is trying to pass liability or risk on to you.Unless I have missed something, I cannot see any benefit for you to not pay the oldco that did the work.
If it's NewCo that invoiced for the work, then surely the debt rests with them, and it's NewCo that has to be paid.
I am absolutely not an expert with this, but I believe it's possible to "trade" before registering a company and the invoice (again, I assume) has been raised and the invoice dated after incorporation, but for services provided before incorporation. I believe this is legal.
From a very quick Google: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/tradin...
As ever, the devil will be in the detail.
I'm just highlighting that I believe there is an option through which this is all legal and above board and that the debt is owed to NewCo.
From a very quick Google: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/tradin...
As ever, the devil will be in the detail.
I'm just highlighting that I believe there is an option through which this is all legal and above board and that the debt is owed to NewCo.
I’ve been in a similar position in that I was apart of a company where the OldCo transitioned to the NewCo including employees, customers and premises etc.
Nothing dodgy whatsoever, just a fresh start. All suppliers and loans were paid fully. No issues with opening new credit accounts with old suppliers and re-accrediting with existing customers.
In fact the OldCo is still active on companies house.
We had PO’s in the name of the OldCo but work was invoiced by the NewCo. We closed our business bank account, so couldn’t accept any payments through the OldCo.
This situation could be totally different i.e. the directors are running away from debt but the simple answer would be to speak to your point of contact at the company and seek clarification.
Nothing dodgy whatsoever, just a fresh start. All suppliers and loans were paid fully. No issues with opening new credit accounts with old suppliers and re-accrediting with existing customers.
In fact the OldCo is still active on companies house.
We had PO’s in the name of the OldCo but work was invoiced by the NewCo. We closed our business bank account, so couldn’t accept any payments through the OldCo.
This situation could be totally different i.e. the directors are running away from debt but the simple answer would be to speak to your point of contact at the company and seek clarification.
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