Racing a Lancia Delta HF Integrale 16v

[fergus]

227bhp said:

Thurbs said:

It is a Walker's baffled sump which they are now re-designing as a result of this issue.

Out of interest what was wrong with it?

it allowed the oil to move away from the pick up pump - hence the new crank (see 3 posts down)

[227bhp]

fergus said:

227bhp said:

Thurbs said:

It is a Walker's baffled sump which they are now re-designing as a result of this issue.

Out of interest what was wrong with it?

it allowed the oil to move away from the pick up pump - hence the new crank (see 3 posts down)

Yes I can read. How exactly did that happen when it's completely boxed in?
(I don't know why you're answering a question which wasn't aimed at you and you don't know the definite answer to)

Edited by 227bhp on Wednesday 21st June 17:50

[fergus]

227bhp said:

fergus said:

227bhp said:

Thurbs said:

It is a Walker's baffled sump which they are now re-designing as a result of this issue.

Out of interest what was wrong with it?

it allowed the oil to move away from the pick up pump - hence the new crank (see 3 posts down)

Yes I can read. How exactly did that happen when it's completely boxed in?
(I don't know why you're answering a question which wasn't aimed at you and you don't know the definite answer to)

Edited by 227bhp on Wednesday 21st June 17:50

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading. A dry sump is the real solution here. Why take the risk when running on slicks?

[Evoluzione]

How much power and torque did this make?

[227bhp]

fergus said:

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading.

That one is.
You ever hear the one about the organ grinder and the monkey?

[fergus]

227bhp said:

That one is.
You ever hear the one about the organ grinder and the monkey?

evidently not

[B'stard Child]

227bhp said:

fergus said:

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading.

That one is.

And it appears to have not worked as well as it should have done..... No?

[227bhp]

B'stard Child said:

227bhp said:

fergus said:

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading.

That one is.

And it appears to have not worked as well as it should have done..... No?

Correct. What we need to know is specifically why and what the mod is to make it work. They've no doubt sold loads of these over the years so it will be helpful to a lot of people to know so they can make a slight alteration if needed.
I'd much rather do that than ring them up:

"Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you can mod the design to avoid this, can you tell me how?"

I think i'd rather just drop the pan and do a bit of a mod.

[B'stard Child]

227bhp said:

B'stard Child said:

227bhp said:

fergus said:

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading.

That one is.

And it appears to have not worked as well as it should have done..... No?

Correct. What we need to know is specifically why and what the mod is to make it work. They've no doubt sold loads of these over the years so it will be helpful to a lot of people to know so they can make a slight alteration if needed.
I'd much rather do that than ring them up:

"Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you can mod the design to avoid this, can you tell me how?"

I think i'd rather just drop the pan and do a bit of a mod.

Then I'm reading a different story - I don't think Thurbs has had his modified - his comment was that the manufacturer said they were redesigning the sump as a result of what happened - as a result he won't know what that change was

Thurbs has fitted a accusump to get round the issue??

Of course I could have this all wrong but I'd be ringing up the manufacturer and saying "Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you are modifying the design to avoid this, can you tell me how I can do mine?"

[fergus]

B'stard Child said:

227bhp said:

B'stard Child said:

227bhp said:

fergus said:

I don't know why you're getting upset.

A lot of baffled sumps are not made to hold oil in a specific place in a sustained high G loading.

That one is.

And it appears to have not worked as well as it should have done..... No?

Correct. What we need to know is specifically why and what the mod is to make it work. They've no doubt sold loads of these over the years so it will be helpful to a lot of people to know so they can make a slight alteration if needed.
I'd much rather do that than ring them up:

"Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you can mod the design to avoid this, can you tell me how?"

I think i'd rather just drop the pan and do a bit of a mod.

Then I'm reading a different story - I don't think Thurbs has had his modified - his comment was that the manufacturer said they were redesigning the sump as a result of what happened - as a result he won't know what that change was

Thurbs has fitted a accusump to get round the issue??

Of course I could have this all wrong but I'd be ringing up the manufacturer and saying "Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you are modifying the design to avoid this, can you tell me how I can do mine?"

Surely if you know where the scavenge pump feeds from and the volume of oil in the sump, you can arrange the baffles in such a way as to pool the oil in a specific area. For circuit use, where there is both lat. and long. G forces probably outside those found in a rally environment, I'm not sure if a wet sump is the way forward.

Although, if these have been used for tarmac rallying, I can't see why they haven't had problems before?

Are all concerned 100% sure it was an oil starvation issue as a function of the sump design?

[227bhp]

B'stard Child said:

Then I'm reading a different story - I don't think Thurbs has had his modified - his comment was that the manufacturer said they were redesigning the sump as a result of what happened - as a result he won't know what that change was

Thurbs has fitted a accusump to get round the issue??

Of course I could have this all wrong but I'd be ringing up the manufacturer and saying "Hello, some bloke has one of your baffled sumps fitted and its caused £2.5ks worth of damage to his engine, he says you are modifying the design to avoid this, can you tell me how I can do mine?"

That's a modified (baffled) sump, you can see it on their website:

Thurbs said:

It is a Walker's baffled sump which they are now re-designing as a result of this issue.

I'm assuming it's just a simple fix as it must have been quite obvious what the problem was when it came off.

[SlimJim16v]

Pete used to race an evo before going to Australia. Might be worth contacting him and I'm sure he'd be interest in yours. Oh, I see he's posted on page 1.

Nick, JWC111 on evocorner forum, builds 500bhp+ engines and has highly modified track and road cars. Definitely worth contacting him - http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/

I think they both use/d Accusumps, along with any other mods. And IMHO, a baffled sump that fks your crank is not fit for its purpose.

Edited by SlimJim16v on Tuesday 4th July 01:27

[Thurbs]

Hi guys. Sorry I missed all these posts. It has been a busy few weeks.

The theory was that the baffled sump would be ok given (as others have said) they have worked no problem in rally cars. I don’t know if circuit racing creates a different set of issues around surge? What I can say is that under braking the car is making longitudinal 1.1-1.2g force for a few seconds. This is no more than the progression in to lateral g of around the same amount, but usually for longer (Coram etc).

The main reasons for not wanting a dry sump is the extra weight, extra piping complication, another pump to drive and if there were an issue we didn’t want lots of hot oil being pumped around the engine bay. Some of these disadvantages have sort of come to fruition with the accusump system we installed to solve the problem, but at least I am not buying new cranks after each session. I think in hindsight we should have gone with a dry sump setup, but you live and learn.

I am afraid I do not know what modification Walkers are planning on making to the baffles to stop the surge. I will ask Steve when I see him next.

I should have said I am on 1b tyres not slicks… specifically the Nankang AR-1 with 245/35 R17. Power wise, this isn’t a factor with the surge as it was all on the brakes.

With the accusump, we did a test at Snetterton which went well, no surge! Then a weekend at Spa Francorchamps which didn’t go so well. On lap 7 of qualifying, the “pull” clutch arm came out of the thrust release baring fixing. This caused a clutch-less change from 5th to 4th and it broke the pin which holds the selector on to the selector shaft, meaning it was stuck in 4th. We found a new box but it needed a standard clutch which we couldn’t source in time for all the shops closing in Belgium late Saturday afternoon.







We have Croft in a few weeks and goal is to finish!

Video from Spa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6LwLrw2olI

[Markbarry1977]

Just watching your video and I see my mate Matty's liquid moly sponsored M3 in the background. Lol.

[Aloysius]

Thurbs said:

We have Croft in a few weeks and goal is to finish!

Would that be the weekend of the 22/23 July? If so I might just call in to watch the action.

[Thurbs]

Hi guys. It has been a busy few weeks, have finally had some race finishes, a class win and an overall win! The Delta is awsome on the wet...

The first Race at Croft we got a class win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBN_RSMN_Sg & https://lanciadeltaracing.com/2017/07/25/first-you...

The second race at Croft we qualified 2nd, took the lead on the first lap, won overall by 40+ seconds and got the fastest lap: https://youtu.be/cCckIHgvwOY & https://lanciadeltaracing.com/2017/07/27/to-finish...

The race win I have done a "unlisted" video for anyone who is interested in watching the whole thing... warning: it is 50m long! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZJc1wK7Hfc

[B'stard Child]

Congratulations - excellent result

I assume the Lancia is now performing faultlessly?

[Thurbs]

B'stard Child said:

Congratulations - excellent result

I assume the Lancia is now performing faultlessly?

Race cars rarely do.

We had a fuel pump issue caused by a bad crimp in the tank and a broken spark plug on Friday during testing.

On Saturday we ran out of tyres and if we had managed them better we could have (should have / would have etc) finished 5th overall. But hey, that's racing. Not the car’s fault and it ran without issue.

Sunday the car was faultless and sublime in the wet.

[Jacobyte]

That's fantastic, well done, enjoy the rest of the season!

[Zombie]

Thurbs said:

Hi guys. Sorry I missed all these posts. It has been a busy few weeks.

The theory was that the baffled sump would be ok given (as others have said) they have worked no problem in rally cars. I don’t know if circuit racing creates a different set of issues around surge? What I can say is that under braking the car is making longitudinal 1.1-1.2g force for a few seconds. This is no more than the progression in to lateral g of around the same amount, but usually for longer (Coram etc).

The main reasons for not wanting a dry sump is the extra weight, extra piping complication, another pump to drive and if there were an issue we didn’t want lots of hot oil being pumped around the engine bay. Some of these disadvantages have sort of come to fruition with the accusump system we installed to solve the problem, but at least I am not buying new cranks after each session. I think in hindsight we should have gone with a dry sump setup, but you live and learn.

I am afraid I do not know what modification Walkers are planning on making to the baffles to stop the surge. I will ask Steve when I see him next.

I should have said I am on 1b tyres not slicks… specifically the Nankang AR-1 with 245/35 R17. Power wise, this isn’t a factor with the surge as it was all on the brakes.

With the accusump, we did a test at Snetterton which went well, no surge! Then a weekend at Spa Francorchamps which didn’t go so well. On lap 7 of qualifying, the “pull” clutch arm came out of the thrust release baring fixing. This caused a clutch-less change from 5th to 4th and it broke the pin which holds the selector on to the selector shaft, meaning it was stuck in 4th. We found a new box but it needed a standard clutch which we couldn’t source in time for all the shops closing in Belgium late Saturday afternoon.







We have Croft in a few weeks and goal is to finish!

Video from Spa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6LwLrw2olI

The clutch looks very similar to the clutch used on Alfa v6s. There is a known issue with the release bearing pulling out of the pressure plate due to a manufacturing defect. They're all made by valeo, even the different brands - QH, OE Alfa etc.

Discussion here;

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gta/980210-alf...