Built vs Bought
Discussion
Due to a dramatic change of circumstances I had to sell the Punto and haven't had time, money or inclination to get a car ready for the second track day in the #FCTDC season.
So I took my 145
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankhall/sets/72157...
Completely, totally and utterly standard apart from part worn Michelin Pilot Sport 3's from a Ginetta Junior race car.
Early report my Alfa was a quick as the Punto at trap points by the end of the day. A tad sluggish to start with and she is notably "perkier" than before. So as well as a raising money for charity, getting together with a bunch of mates and having a ball on track I've given my car a Carbon clean as well.
So I took my 145
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankhall/sets/72157...
Completely, totally and utterly standard apart from part worn Michelin Pilot Sport 3's from a Ginetta Junior race car.
Early report my Alfa was a quick as the Punto at trap points by the end of the day. A tad sluggish to start with and she is notably "perkier" than before. So as well as a raising money for charity, getting together with a bunch of mates and having a ball on track I've given my car a Carbon clean as well.
One mechanical issue. Later in the day and on my drive home my gear selector got really stiff. So much so I basically didn't have 2nd and 4th gears.
This morning I found this...
...chunk of plastic trim wedged in the linkage. Quick fix but an hour to get the battery, fuse box, tray, loom and bits of pipe out of the way enough to get to it.
Find out more about our charity track days here...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/561769647533221/
This morning I found this...
...chunk of plastic trim wedged in the linkage. Quick fix but an hour to get the battery, fuse box, tray, loom and bits of pipe out of the way enough to get to it.
Find out more about our charity track days here...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/561769647533221/
So the results are in. Even though I wasn't going full on my 145 and I did a pretty respectable 1:26.23...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG-d5PghTBM&t
...photos are here...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankhall/sets/72157...
Time to update my Blyton board...
Modified Bravo HLX - 1:24.8 (dry and sunny)
Standard Alfa 145 Cloverleaf with sticky tyres and stuff removed from the boot and door cards - 1:26.23 (dry and sunny)
Standard Punto HGT with Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres - 1:29.6 (damp-ish dank and cool)
Standard Bravo HLX with Toyo T1R tyres and EBC brake pads - 1:41.3 (dry and sunny)
Trap speeds at the end of the straight.
Alfa 145 Cloverleaf - 84mph (camera 91mph indicated)
Modified Fiat Bravo - 83mph (camera 90mph indicated)
Fiat Punto HGT - 82mph (camera 85 indicated)
Standard Fiat Punto HLX - 81mph (camera 85mph indicated)
It's not going to take much for the 145 to beat the Bravo but who knows what direction I'll have to take next?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG-d5PghTBM&t
...photos are here...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankhall/sets/72157...
Time to update my Blyton board...
Modified Bravo HLX - 1:24.8 (dry and sunny)
Standard Alfa 145 Cloverleaf with sticky tyres and stuff removed from the boot and door cards - 1:26.23 (dry and sunny)
Standard Punto HGT with Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres - 1:29.6 (damp-ish dank and cool)
Standard Bravo HLX with Toyo T1R tyres and EBC brake pads - 1:41.3 (dry and sunny)
Trap speeds at the end of the straight.
Alfa 145 Cloverleaf - 84mph (camera 91mph indicated)
Modified Fiat Bravo - 83mph (camera 90mph indicated)
Fiat Punto HGT - 82mph (camera 85 indicated)
Standard Fiat Punto HLX - 81mph (camera 85mph indicated)
It's not going to take much for the 145 to beat the Bravo but who knows what direction I'll have to take next?
Excellent times!
Fettling the 145 a bit will easily see it beat the bravo would be my guess, not sure how rigorous the weight savings program has been so far? Next step should probably be stripping more weight, fancy brake pads and some suspension upgrades, getting more power out of that twinny will take new cams and a remap, which will cost a lot more.
Im impressed to see it beat the Punto HGT that easily though, the power/weight on an HGT is quite decent with 133hp in a punto, while the 145 isnt exactly a light car.
Fettling the 145 a bit will easily see it beat the bravo would be my guess, not sure how rigorous the weight savings program has been so far? Next step should probably be stripping more weight, fancy brake pads and some suspension upgrades, getting more power out of that twinny will take new cams and a remap, which will cost a lot more.
Im impressed to see it beat the Punto HGT that easily though, the power/weight on an HGT is quite decent with 133hp in a punto, while the 145 isnt exactly a light car.
Vitorio said:
Excellent times!
Fettling the 145 a bit will easily see it beat the bravo would be my guess, not sure how rigorous the weight savings program has been so far? Next step should probably be stripping more weight, fancy brake pads and some suspension upgrades, getting more power out of that twinny will take new cams and a remap, which will cost a lot more.
Im impressed to see it beat the Punto HGT that easily though, the power/weight on an HGT is quite decent with 133hp in a punto, while the 145 isnt exactly a light car.
I am so proud of my Alfa. She has done some incredible things the last month to six weeks. Got me to hospital in time (53 miles in 32 minutes without breaking an 20,30, 40 or 50mph limits) to say goodbye to my father. Lead car at his funeral procession and now this. Incredible. Fettling the 145 a bit will easily see it beat the bravo would be my guess, not sure how rigorous the weight savings program has been so far? Next step should probably be stripping more weight, fancy brake pads and some suspension upgrades, getting more power out of that twinny will take new cams and a remap, which will cost a lot more.
Im impressed to see it beat the Punto HGT that easily though, the power/weight on an HGT is quite decent with 133hp in a punto, while the 145 isnt exactly a light car.
Not to mention the van load of stuff she took without hesitation, averaging 45mpg, driving seven hundred miles so comfortably I flt like I had only been to the shops and back.
I don't really need to do anything to make the 145 quicker than the Bravo. Just drive with less mechanical sympathy and hope she takes it.
I was holding back in a endurance race kind of mode, early progressive braking and easy on the (never full) throttle to make sure she would get me home.
Tuning the Twinspark will be similar to the Bravo (I have most of the Bravo bits in the shed), filter, exhaust, springs and weight reduction.
The AC pump leaks so it's a matter of finding a shorter belt and deleting that.
While I'm at it I could find a balance shaft removal kit as it's weight and mechanical drag that gave the Twinspark its unique sound but at the same time restricted output.
Also there's the JTD manifold to make a Twinspark Turbo area to explore.
Sounds like a very good car, i hope itll last you a good while longer (and sorry to hear about your dad, my condolences)
If you ever get into newer metal, id suggest you give the 147 a try as well, front double wishbone suspension, and im quite impressed with how my boggo spec 147 handles itself through a corner.
If you ever get into newer metal, id suggest you give the 147 a try as well, front double wishbone suspension, and im quite impressed with how my boggo spec 147 handles itself through a corner.
Vitorio said:
Sounds like a very good car, i hope itll last you a good while longer (and sorry to hear about your dad, my condolences)
If you ever get into newer metal, id suggest you give the 147 a try as well, front double wishbone suspension, and im quite impressed with how my boggo spec 147 handles itself through a corner.
I do like the 147 but the car felt heavy in comparison to my 145If you ever get into newer metal, id suggest you give the 147 a try as well, front double wishbone suspension, and im quite impressed with how my boggo spec 147 handles itself through a corner.
All that Lusso stuff is ballast.
Liquid Knight said:
I do like the 147 but the car felt heavy in comparison to my 145
All that Lusso stuff is ballast.
True, the 147 isnt a light car (but lets be honest, a 145 isnt a featherweight either, the boxers which were ansolutely fine in the 33 kind of suffered in the 145), but some weight savings can fix that (to some degree :P)All that Lusso stuff is ballast.
Its a shame there never was a 147 QV, the 2.0 is just a tad light for such a badge, and the GTA is a whole new world, if only they'd done a 2.5 V6 version...
Vitorio said:
True, the 147 isnt a light car (but lets be honest, a 145 isnt a featherweight either, the boxers which were ansolutely fine in the 33 kind of suffered in the 145), but some weight savings can fix that (to some degree :P)
Its a shame there never was a 147 QV, the 2.0 is just a tad light for such a badge, and the GTA is a whole new world, if only they'd done a 2.5 V6 version...
Agreed. Its a shame there never was a 147 QV, the 2.0 is just a tad light for such a badge, and the GTA is a whole new world, if only they'd done a 2.5 V6 version...
The 145 V6 on this thread looks really good.
The 145 and 147 weigh roughly the same but the 147 is so much higher...
...it would lean over even more being top heavy.
Liquid Knight said:
The 145 and 147 weigh roughly the same but the 147 is so much higher...
Is it? from the specs i can find a 145QV (which presumably is on lower springs then std) is 6mm higher then a 147 2.0 (which isnt on lowering springs)Granted, this says little about where the COG is, but i cant imagine the difference is huge, considering they run the same engine, and the 147 can probably be dropped quite a bit
My springs must be saggy as I parked next to a 147 and it was a Range Rover-esque two inches higher.
In reply to your other comment...
...this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Stilo-2-4-Abarth-2...
...has been on my watch list as an alternative to messing about with my 145 for a while now.
I wouldn't mind getting a Stilo SW and swapping the Abarth engine and bits over. They are a tad nose heavy and the longer wheelbase could compensate for that.
In reply to your other comment...
...this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Stilo-2-4-Abarth-2...
...has been on my watch list as an alternative to messing about with my 145 for a while now.
I wouldn't mind getting a Stilo SW and swapping the Abarth engine and bits over. They are a tad nose heavy and the longer wheelbase could compensate for that.
Liquid Knight said:
My springs must be saggy as I parked next to a 147 and it was a Range Rover-esque two inches higher.
In reply to your other comment...
...this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Stilo-2-4-Abarth-2...
...has been on my watch list as an alternative to messing about with my 145 for a while now.
I wouldn't mind getting a Stilo SW and swapping the Abarth engine and bits over. They are a tad nose heavy and the longer wheelbase could compensate for that.
Id gamble that your 145 has had lowering springs then (or the specs i looked up are wrong :P) either way, visually the 147s wheel arches dont do it any favoures when it comes to range rover-esqe-nessIn reply to your other comment...
...this...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Stilo-2-4-Abarth-2...
...has been on my watch list as an alternative to messing about with my 145 for a while now.
I wouldn't mind getting a Stilo SW and swapping the Abarth engine and bits over. They are a tad nose heavy and the longer wheelbase could compensate for that.
That Stilo looks good, for me it would have to be a jack of all trades (daily, shuttle the kids about etc..) so im a bit nervous about them none the less, but that engine.... If i could get a 147 with a slightly more interesting lump then the 2.0 four-pot i wouldnt even bother looking at stilos :P
Forgive the lack of updates. The have been ups and downs.
The MG ZT had a sudden and catastrophic water pump failure. Literally came from nowhere. The car was supposed to have been serviced last MOT but when the pump went it took the cam'belt, twelve valves and one of the head gaskets with it.
I had managed to save up for the retired Uno race car but had to replace the MG instead.
With this...
....mighty steed of a Rover 620Ti. As quick as the MG, smaller on the outside, bigger inside and as economical. Best of all a factory fitted dogs dick tow bar so I managed...
...to get the soon to be built Uno home at least.
Now the plan was to get the race car and build one as quick using the 1368cc 16V (98hp) engine from a Fiat Idea I bought for my sister last year.
I bought a set of wheel straps to get that home and the fun begins.
It was a tad wet when I pulled the engine out.
Phase 1 ditch the ecu, injectors and other ballast.
Ignition taken care of by the Uno distributor (using a knackered old Panda one at this stage) replacing the drive with an 18mm socket so I don't have to cut a locating wedge in the camshaft bolt. The original locator is too short and a standard socket too long. It would be easier to shorten and drill the socket than lengthen the shaft or weld a nut on the end of the bolt to meet it.
I'm thinking bike carb's for fueling. I have a set from my GSXR250R SP that'll be too small and from my old FZR1000 that are too big. CBR600 ones should do the trick. Having said that the ports are tiny...
...compared to any engines I have played with before so I guess a new base plate and fun ahead.
The Uno has a sunroof and I'm not a fan of those on track so before headed to the scrap heap the Idea had one more part to give.
Now do I use duct-tape or silicone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoSIWYkNI8g
@1:09 I think I'll weld it.
The MG ZT had a sudden and catastrophic water pump failure. Literally came from nowhere. The car was supposed to have been serviced last MOT but when the pump went it took the cam'belt, twelve valves and one of the head gaskets with it.
I had managed to save up for the retired Uno race car but had to replace the MG instead.
With this...
....mighty steed of a Rover 620Ti. As quick as the MG, smaller on the outside, bigger inside and as economical. Best of all a factory fitted dogs dick tow bar so I managed...
...to get the soon to be built Uno home at least.
Now the plan was to get the race car and build one as quick using the 1368cc 16V (98hp) engine from a Fiat Idea I bought for my sister last year.
I bought a set of wheel straps to get that home and the fun begins.
It was a tad wet when I pulled the engine out.
Phase 1 ditch the ecu, injectors and other ballast.
Ignition taken care of by the Uno distributor (using a knackered old Panda one at this stage) replacing the drive with an 18mm socket so I don't have to cut a locating wedge in the camshaft bolt. The original locator is too short and a standard socket too long. It would be easier to shorten and drill the socket than lengthen the shaft or weld a nut on the end of the bolt to meet it.
I'm thinking bike carb's for fueling. I have a set from my GSXR250R SP that'll be too small and from my old FZR1000 that are too big. CBR600 ones should do the trick. Having said that the ports are tiny...
...compared to any engines I have played with before so I guess a new base plate and fun ahead.
The Uno has a sunroof and I'm not a fan of those on track so before headed to the scrap heap the Idea had one more part to give.
Now do I use duct-tape or silicone?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoSIWYkNI8g
@1:09 I think I'll weld it.
So today...
I went to visit.
https://www.facebook.com/EliteMotorsportEngineerin...
To get some barely broken in tyres from a couple of Ginneta Jnr's.
Serious case of shed envy here.
195-50-15 Pilot Sport tyres as fitted to my Alfa 145
Should fit the arches of the Uno...
...once the Stilo Steel wheels arrive.
I went to visit.
https://www.facebook.com/EliteMotorsportEngineerin...
To get some barely broken in tyres from a couple of Ginneta Jnr's.
Serious case of shed envy here.
195-50-15 Pilot Sport tyres as fitted to my Alfa 145
Should fit the arches of the Uno...
...once the Stilo Steel wheels arrive.
Started stripping the interior today.
It's just as well I'll be fitting harnesses as these...
...lower seat belt mounts are a certain MOT failure.
I'm thinking of cutting the spare wheel well out...
...fitting a plate to make it flat so I can...
...have a rear diffuser from the beam axle back to the bumper between the back box and tow point.
It's just as well I'll be fitting harnesses as these...
...lower seat belt mounts are a certain MOT failure.
I'm thinking of cutting the spare wheel well out...
...fitting a plate to make it flat so I can...
...have a rear diffuser from the beam axle back to the bumper between the back box and tow point.
In other news I dropped the inlet manifold and old exhaust gasket off at...
http://www.optimastainless.co.uk/
...to get some base plates made.
http://www.optimastainless.co.uk/
...to get some base plates made.
I don't need to do a pedantic step by step guide of how to overhaul rear brakes do I?
Considering the old girl has been stored outside both wheel cylinders being seized solid was not a surprise. ?
New shoes and cylinders all round, wheel bearings greased up, but I could not bleed them as the pedal is would not move. So it's either sized front calipers, knackered bias valve (if they Uno has one like my Pandas have) or knackered master cylinder.
As the car will be...
"Moving faster!"
...I was going to replace...
"The Master! Master! Master of puppets is pulling your stings!"
...anyway.
Considering the old girl has been stored outside both wheel cylinders being seized solid was not a surprise. ?
New shoes and cylinders all round, wheel bearings greased up, but I could not bleed them as the pedal is would not move. So it's either sized front calipers, knackered bias valve (if they Uno has one like my Pandas have) or knackered master cylinder.
As the car will be...
"Moving faster!"
...I was going to replace...
"The Master! Master! Master of puppets is pulling your stings!"
...anyway.
Love your posts LK, top italian shedding!
Out of curiosity, why start with a base Uno for a track car, would a turbo not be a better base? (probably somewhat expensive though)
On the topic of unos and track prep, i seem to remember from my days of obsessing over cinquecentos that the uno turbo (or was it punto GT?) had 253mm vented discs at the front, which were a straight swap to the cinq (provided you got 14 inch wheels). Those were pretty rare though, but as luck would have it, the alfa 155 1.8 (i think 8 valve) used the exact same discs/calipers etc.. so those are a straight swap as well, and might be easier to find.
Might be worth looking into if you want bigger brakes on the Uno
Out of curiosity, why start with a base Uno for a track car, would a turbo not be a better base? (probably somewhat expensive though)
On the topic of unos and track prep, i seem to remember from my days of obsessing over cinquecentos that the uno turbo (or was it punto GT?) had 253mm vented discs at the front, which were a straight swap to the cinq (provided you got 14 inch wheels). Those were pretty rare though, but as luck would have it, the alfa 155 1.8 (i think 8 valve) used the exact same discs/calipers etc.. so those are a straight swap as well, and might be easier to find.
Might be worth looking into if you want bigger brakes on the Uno
The Cinquecento/Seicento had different wheel bearings and therefore offset.
Sorry about the introduction. It was for the old PPC forum as part of my £999 Challenge build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVXVO-reYyQ=48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-_uEg0fxc0&t=...
The offset and bearing meant at the time companies would charge extra for "conversion" discs. That were the same as Bravo HLX or mk2 Punto HGT ones.
I have all the bits in my shed to do the big brake conversion later but they are significantly heavier than the Idea brakes up front with Uno drums at the back. With as little weight as possible the drums should be fine. Stripped out the Uno should weigh around the 700Kg mark.
Sorry about the introduction. It was for the old PPC forum as part of my £999 Challenge build.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVXVO-reYyQ=48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-_uEg0fxc0&t=...
The offset and bearing meant at the time companies would charge extra for "conversion" discs. That were the same as Bravo HLX or mk2 Punto HGT ones.
I have all the bits in my shed to do the big brake conversion later but they are significantly heavier than the Idea brakes up front with Uno drums at the back. With as little weight as possible the drums should be fine. Stripped out the Uno should weigh around the 700Kg mark.
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