Would you buy an Integrale?

[DeejRC]

It’s the greatest rally car ever made. End of.
You will spend plenty of money at Walkers. You then get to drive to back across some fantastic roads from Walkers with it in top condition
A lot of stuff is unobtanium.
Your wife will probably hate it.
Yellow Veglia dials rock. They just do.
The seats are AWESOME!

I sold mine to buy a house. I’m still not sure how much of a stupid decision this was.

[Skyedriver]

It's been known for people to live in a car - try driving a house

[anonymous-user]

I bought an Integrale in August, it blew a head gasket in less than 100 miles of driving and it spent over a month at Omicron who did an excellent job getting it running again. While it was there it had new cams, belts, pipes and anything else that they deemed worth changing while it was in bits.

Now it's back on the road I've spent a little more time driving it and I must admit I'm struggling to see what the appeal is, beyond the looks. I will happily put up the the creaks and rattles and the polite chat with middle-aged men who seem drawn to it like moths if I could work out what is special about the driving experience. Maybe I'm too restrained with it?

Any advice?

[Harris_I]

It won't be as quick as modern high performance stuff but it will have unmatched steering feel which I guess is subjective. That's a big plus for me because I want to enjoy the simple act of driving without risking my licence. Of course you can get that in an Elise but not in a contemporary Subaru or other rally-rep (OK, the Impreza arrived a couple of years later) and certainly not in most post 2010 performance cars.

Traction still matches most modern stuff despite the absence of electronics. If you want to go beyond just enjoying the steering at low speeds and experience the traction, then it needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck. It might sound a cliché, but it really does require a Scandinavian flick to get it to dig in and take off. (The first time you try it, it takes a certain amount of faith it will get round the corner.) On standard (fresh) dampers, the suspension is more supple than today's hot hatches and there will be considerably more lean angle, but then this is a road car and personally I'd like the chassis to deal with poor road surfaces and telegraph the outcome to me in advance.

At the time, the performance was exceptional but today may feel a bit tepid. A larger fuel pump, chip and exhaust will add around 40-60hp without too much trouble or expense. I don't think I would ever need more for the road but we are all different. I especially love the grunt and traction out of junctions. I'm too old for the hooligan stuff, but it still entertains at 7 or 8/10ths.

Original brakes are poor but there are various levels of modern upgrade. (IIRC some owners swapped to early Boxster calipers but I stuck with grooved Tarox discs on standard calipers and am quite happy).

[Skyedriver]

DrBrule said:

I bought an Integrale in August, it blew a head gasket in less than 100 miles of driving and it spent over a month at Omicron who did an excellent job getting it running again. While it was there it had new cams, belts, pipes and anything else that they deemed worth changing while it was in bits.

Now it's back on the road I've spent a little more time driving it and I must admit I'm struggling to see what the appeal is, beyond the looks. I will happily put up the the creaks and rattles and the polite chat with middle-aged men who seem drawn to it like moths if I could work out what is special about the driving experience. Maybe I'm too restrained with it?

Any advice?

If you want to offload it at a bargain price.......
Might even do a p/x for my Boxster or Excel..

Edit: I have the same feeling for my 3.2S Boxster as you do for the Integrale.

Edit 2: Actually, no idea where you are or your car spec but if you fancy trying a Boxster....

Edited by Skyedriver on Thursday 13th October 16:50

Edited by Skyedriver on Thursday 13th October 19:46

[anonymous-user]

Thank you but I’ve never felt drawn to Porsches, of any kind.

I think the poster above you might have highlighted the issue; drive it harder. I am pottering about like Miss Daisy.

It’s a late 92 16v btw.

[Harris_I]

DrBrule said:

I think the poster above you might have highlighted the issue; drive it harder. I am pottering about like Miss Daisy.

But also I'm saying it should feel special at low speeds as well. I love pootling in mine, just winding the windows down and letting the exhaust burble bouncing off buildings in a town centre at night.

I know you said Porsches don't do it for you, but for me the sensation of a pre-991 steering writhing in my hands and the nose bobbing is delicious, particularly on the 996 GT3. I feel the same about the 205 GTi, Elise and any flavour of Caterham (although I confess there's too much compromise with the Caterham to make me love it).

It's an old school car and with that comes a visceral involvement - I think one has to buy into that whole vibe otherwise it's easy to walk away unimpressed. For example, even with the downside of a big lag from the old fashioned turbo, there's still an immediate and organic throttle response. E-power trains don't respond in the same way, no matter how powerful.

I think for all these reasons, I have this feeling that the next generation of drivers may not "get" these old school homologation specials. They may simply see them as slow, noisy throwbacks in an era of clean energy touchscreen e-power train motoring.

[anonymous-user]

Ohhh, you mentioned the 205 - one of my favourite cars that I’ve driven.

I am okay with old cars; prior to the Delta I had an SZ and I used to have a Mk2 Golf GTI as a plaything about 10 years ago too.

I need to do some more miles in it and see if at some point something clicks. It’s still very new to me.

[Skyedriver]

DrBrule said:

Thank you but I’ve never felt drawn to Porsches, of any kind.

No worries, just thought I'd ask.

As it happens I have a thing about black cars (after a Metro Turbo in black many years ago).

[andy-integrale]

footsoldier said:

My car is at Walkers now getting an annual reboot after a lot of miles last year.
I’ve probably said it more than once, but it’s the last road car I’d sell, brilliant things when properly sorted in original spec

I have had my Evo 2 15 years, love it still. “Properly sorted in original spec” is a good shout. Even Evo’s are knocking on for 30 years old and worn bushes and dampers etc do them no favours.

They also love cold air in the turbo and getting properly warmed through on a decent run. I have just changed my daily and while I love it it’s too quick for the road. You can enjoy an integrale at sensible speeds.

Edited by andy-integrale on Friday 14th October 20:11

[Harris_I]

andy-integrale said:

Even Evo’s are knocking on for 30 years old and worn bushes and dampers etc do them no favours.

Agree. The car seems very sensitive to even slightly imperfect suspension/tyres/geometry.

[Fessia fancier]

Harris_I said:

Agree. The car seems very sensitive to even slightly imperfect suspension/tyres/geometry.

My thoughts too, I would get the geometry checked. I particularly like the steering on mine. I also think they make more sense as you stretch the car.

[daviekiwi]

The Integrale is still a bucket list car for me, My dads mate had an Evo pearlato bianco, excuse my lingo.
It looked stunning! and am a Bmw guy.
I would buy one for the looks alone. pm me

[footsoldier]

Mine has just had the annual sort out at Walkers… Fixed leak and then recharged the aircon, replaced alternator, water pump and belts; by choice having a brake disc and pad upgrade for going up and down mountains in a spirited fashion, and some brighter headlight bulbs... Still no sign of the rust that cliches would predict, but topped up the underbody protection. And wheels refurbed and painted white!

Well used last year, 5000km in all weather and road conditions, going straight back to the alps for winter.

[footsoldier]

DrBrule said:

I bought an Integrale in August, it blew a head gasket in less than 100 miles of driving and it spent over a month at Omicron who did an excellent job getting it running again. While it was there it had new cams, belts, pipes and anything else that they deemed worth changing while it was in bits.

Now it's back on the road I've spent a little more time driving it and I must admit I'm struggling to see what the appeal is, beyond the looks. I will happily put up the the creaks and rattles and the polite chat with middle-aged men who seem drawn to it like moths if I could work out what is special about the driving experience. Maybe I'm too restrained with it?

Any advice?

Is your car on standard suspension? Too many lose the ‘leaning while gripping’ feel when they are ‘upgraded’ with coilovers etc.

As others have said, I would make sure it’s set up correctly, then drive it like you would have done when it was new, and keep ahead of any wear and tear and maintenance issues.

[anonymous-user]

I know it’s on Final Edition springs and the previous owner did suggest going back to oem or Ohlins would be a good idea.

[footsoldier]

DrBrule said:

I know it’s on Final Edition springs and the previous owner did suggest going back to oem or Ohlins would be a good idea.

Definitely go back to OEM, imo. Mine came with coliovers and it was a game changer when I went back to original spec. Added suppleness to the ride, and just grips better round corners, less easily unsettled.

[footsoldier]

DrBrule said:

I know it’s on Final Edition springs and the previous owner did suggest going back to oem or Ohlins would be a good idea.

Definitely go back to OEM, imo. Mine came with coliovers and it was a game changer when I went back to original spec. Added suppleness to the ride, and just grips better round corners, less easily unsettled.

Edited by footsoldier on Saturday 29th October 19:42

[Harris_I]

Same here. I started on OEM, switched to BAD coilovers when the car was overseas on much smoother roads (superb kit, btw), came back to the UK and found it too crashy, switched to fresh OEM dampers on Final Edition springs (too low), then finally standard OEM springs and dampers.

The original is the best!

[arguti]

I think the issue is that many of these cars have been messed with/modified and so it is difficult to find a genuinely unmolested car that has been looked after by someone that knows these cars well enough.

I know it sounds fairly obvious but having owned a number of older alfas such as 105 coupes, alfetta GTV6s, etc etc and having owned some of these when new gives you some idea as to how they should feel on the road and many restored cars have lost that.

I brought this over from Italy earlier this year - unmolested HF4WD. Subtle and fun.

Edited by arguti on Tuesday 1st November 11:11