Private car sale - Letter of court action

[moooooobss]

Hi Everyone

I've got a bit of a situation brewing and I was hoping for some advice from PH.

So the backstory:

My wife sold her horse box back in May. 2 weeks after sale she received a letter saying that the fuel injector had gone and that the buyer wanted a full refund as the goods were not fit for purpose. We replied stating that the vehicle was in working order when it was sold to and that no refund would be given.

Fast forward 3 months and my wife receives another letter saying that the vehicle was mis-described when sold as it was advertised as recently passed its MOT (12 days before the new owner bought the vehicle) and that the new owner had taken it to a local garage and they had told them that it could not have passed its MOT due to a list of issues:

slipping clutch
rotten flow in horse stalls
no spare tyre
no horn (the horn isnt on the steering wheel but a button on the dashboard - so maybe the garage missed it??)

The new owner also says that the horse box was misdescribed as in the advert it said 'had new brakes' and the garage they took it to said that the brake pipes were corroded.

My wife replied stating that it had passed its MOT shortly before being purchased and that the brakes were as described.

5 days later we then receive another letter stating that the vehicle "is no longer fit for purpose" due to the issues explained in the previous letter. Before we can then reply another 7 days later we receive a Notice of Court action. The owner states that they are seeking a full refund + £1G for the fuel pump that they paid for. If they do not get a refund or satisfactory response within 30 days they are going to start court action. They are claiming that they are due a refund as the goods were not fit for purpose when sold to her as they should under the sales of goods act 1979.

I'm really not sure where we stand on this. My wife did not misdescribe the horse box in the advert or during the sale process. She didnt make any comments like 'runs fine - in perfect condition’. Just wondering if this person has a case?

[moooooobss]

Few questions.

What sort of truck is it? A C1 (7.5T) a C?

3.5 tonne

What's the chassis, i.e. Make and model?

Ford Transit

What's a rotten flow?

Thats my spelling mistake. They state in their letter that the floor in the horse stalls in rotten

As for their complaints, it has a horn, it doesn't need a spare tyre for a test, and the fact that they've since fked the clutch is not your problem.

If everything really is as you describe, tell them you'll see them in court.

But if you want good useful advice on here, you have to tell the whole truth, you're not leaving anything out?

That is 100% the truth

[moooooobss]

Here is the original ad wording:

3.5t ford transit horsebox
Can be driven on normal licence. Power Steering so easy to drive. 3 seats in front. Storage above driver. Stalled for 2 ponies. Would fit 16h horse. Payload unknown. Rear load, Side off. Easily manageable for 1 person. Just passed its MOT. Had new brakes.


The vehicle passed its MOT 12 days before being bought and had to have new brake shoes fitted in order to pass MOT.

Also note the buyer test drove the vehicle once and inspected it twice. At no point did they voice any concerns.

[moooooobss]

Does anyone know if this did go to small claims and if the judge found in the buyers favour - surely they wouldnt just say pay the money back to the buyer and you get the horse box back as the vehicle isnt worth the same amount now as its been nearly 4 months and I'm guessing they used the box as well.

[moooooobss]

Thanks to everyone who replied with advice. We are going to respond explaining that the vehicle was in full working order when sold. I will keep you all updated if it goes further.

[moooooobss]

PartOfTheProblem said:

Whats the age / mileage / price?

I think I'm with everyone else - sold as seen, as describe, please fk off.

I'm hopeless at quote formatting.

14 years old. 30K miles. £5.5G

[moooooobss]

TooMany2cvs said:

moooooobss said:

14 years old. 30K miles. £5.5G

So not exactly a bargain basement stter?

Not having a clue about Tranny horsebox values, a quick search finds...
https://www.horsedeals.co.uk/detail/ford-transit-2... - similar age, bit cheaper
https://www.horsedeals.co.uk/detail/ford-transit-l... - old, lot cheaper
https://www.horsedeals.co.uk/detail/ford-transit-2... - old, lot cheaper
...but all look fairly tidy, suggesting even this isn't exactly bargain-bucket shed territory.

While consumer law doesn't specify any measure of value, expectations are higher for relatively expensive goods than for relatively cheap ones.

He's still on very flaky territory with it being a private sale and the ad not being inaccurate, but that's something which might not work in your favour.

Something my wife just told me 'Horse box prices are very dependant on location.

Who knew? Supply and demand I imagine.

[moooooobss]

Thanks again for everyones input. Its just a little stressful when you get a letter talking about going to court!

[moooooobss]

100% private sale.

It just amazes me that they are quoting the wrong act when its taken me all of 5 mins to find out that the sales of goods act was superseded by the consumer rights act 2015.

Debating whether to send a solicitors letter to hopefully nip this in the bud.

[moooooobss]

In one of the letters sent they attached an invoice from a garage detailing the problems with the vehicle (as already detailed in a previous post). The date of the invoice is from August. Vehicle sold to them in May.

Again - Massive thank you for everyones input. Going to sit tight at see. There is no way that we are going to give a refund - Will be interesting to see how far they are willing to take this.

Lets hope a judge would see the details of the sale the same way that you guys have.

[moooooobss]

Hi everyone

Thanks for your replies. It's very reassuring to know that not one person in this thread agrees with the buyer. The more I have read your replies the more it makes sense that they have probably had their use out of the box over the summer and now don't want it anymore. It just always crosses your mind the worst case scenario in that a judge would side with them and this end up costing us money that we don't have.

A couple of people have said only reply if you receive a intended notice of court action which I guess we technically have in the form of their letter saying they will take my wife to court unless we pay up so I think a clear response is needed. (fYI after a bit of digging I found a template on the citizens advice website that exactly matches the letter sent to us so it's clear that they haven't got any legal advice from a solicitor)

It was sold as described
You viewed it twice and voiced no concerns
It's been under their ownership for nearly 3 months
See you in court

I will keep this thread updated with anymore progress

[moooooobss]

Hi everyone

Just resurrecting this thread as we had our day in court last week and I thought I would update everyone with the results.

Short of it is that we sat down with a judge. Judge explained to both parties that the fact that the vehicle may be unfit for purpose is irrelevant in a private sale. The only laws that have to be followed are that the person has the right to sell the vehicle. It be road worthy and that it was not miss described.

Some discussions between the judge and claiment took place. We, as the defendant, were not asked to provide any evidence as the judge had made a decision based on the claiments evidence.

The decision was that the vehicle was not miss described and there fore the case was dismissed.

So after a long two years this has finally been put to bed.

So there you have it folks. I hope no one else has to go through our experience but I just thought I would provide this update for anyone else out there who is looking for answers as I was when I started this thread.

[moooooobss]

Probably but at this point we just want to be done with it

[moooooobss]

ash73 said:

I remember reading somewhere (probably on here) this is why you should never say things like "in good condition" in an advert, just describe what it is and any known faults.

Best approach is to say as little as possible

[moooooobss]

The Moose said:

Great (and the correct!) result for you.

The bit I bolded above - does that mean you are unable to sell a car that is not road worthy as a private person even if it's described with it's faults?

Sorry my bad. I've just checked our solicitors letter sent to the claiment and it describes the following three rules when selling a car privately

Seller must have the legal right to sell the car
The vehicle must be as described
The vehicle is not miss represented

Sorry about the initial confusion. Don't know where I got road worthy from.

[moooooobss]

meatballs said:

If the small claims court wasn't so accessible it would be very costly to claim back money when someone does genuinely screw you over. You could add some pre-screening to reply to the claimant and say this is very unlikely to be upheld perhaps.

I think the thing that is missing is a cursery glance by a judge before it goes to court once all the papers have been submitted. They can then decide if there is any merit to the case or not. You can do this now via a 'summary judgement' however this can cost a significant sum and may get you no where.

[moooooobss]

meatballs said:

If the small claims court wasn't so accessible it would be very costly to claim back money when someone does genuinely screw you over. You could add some pre-screening to reply to the claimant and say this is very unlikely to be upheld perhaps.

I think the thing that is missing is a cursery glance by a judge before it goes to court once all the papers have been submitted. They can then decide if there is any merit to the case or not. You can do this now via a 'summary judgement' however this can cost a significant sum and may get you no where.