Sold a car privately - COURT ACTION
Discussion
Hello chaps, mainly for peace of mind... looking to see your view point on the following...
I sold a car (BMW 330ci 2003 - 134k) late Jan, answered all questions truthfully, listing was as described, excellent condition and running perfectly, cat d bla bla bla, usual description of my ownership of several months, sold due to being a lil too juicy on fuel... I sold it to a guy who I felt like was in a rush and just wanted to buy and leave, didnt even test drive! I insisted and he still said no need however I still took him out for my own peace of mind, he was happy and just handed the cash over, didnt ask any questions on arrival, he did ask on the phone about the rocker cover gasket leak which I told him about and he was aware of this (common issue) and had me drop the price from 2400 to 2100. Purchased and left happy! or so I thought...
4 weeks later I get a phone call from a lady demanding full refund because its got some faults and accused me of lying about the car being serviced 3 days prior, I also found out it had driven over 4000 miles in 4 weeks and she was stating the tyres are in poor condition so I have misrepresented the condition and the garage shes taken it to have said it will cost £4000 to fix some engine leak or something. I not having sold many cars in my lifetime said leave it with me I need to see where I stand with this then later that day called her back and said sorry I cannot do anything as its sold as seen and I described it to the best I can. shes now taking me to court however I did NOT sell the car to her and never met her, she seems to be the sister of the chap I sold the car to so is this not a worthless case whereby I have never dealt with the claimant? furthermore I have read online re this caveat emptor and have proof where I serviced the car 3 days prior to her buying the car from a reputable garage, the car has been driven to what I think an excessive amount in a short period.
The previous letter/garage receipt I have received, I responded back to Mr M*** (claimant) stating I will NOT be refunding due to the following reasons:-
I have not sold the above car to the claimant named above (Doesn't even have the same surname as the chap who I sold the car to)
I am a private seller.
Vehicle purchased for £2100, NOT £2150. (see exhibit C)
Car details:- 2003 BMW 3 Series Reg:- ******* Mileage:- 134000
Vehicle was advertised & described to the best of my knowledge and was in full working order at the time of sale. (see exhibit A)
Serviced by a garage 2 days prior to selling. (see exhibit B)
Sold as seen receipt was signed by both parties. (see exhibit C)
MOT History confirms it was roadworthy at the time of sale. (See exhibit D)
Claimant (Mr ****) was not interested in a test drive on arrival and was happy to purchase without, So I insisted as I found this rather odd and wanted him to, for my own peace of mind, to be sure he was happy however I found him to be in a hurry to leave throughout.
I have found out the car has been driven nearly 4000 miles in 3 weeks. Compare exhibit A/B/C to Exhibit E (Sent from claimant).
I would like to point out that the nature of cars is such that faults can arise at any given time, he inspected the vehicle and I answered all of the questions he asked truthfully such as the rocker cover gasket was leaking oil and the car was pulling to one side, hence the drop in price. He then said “I've looked around and am happy to buy” to which I responded “lets go for a test drive” to which he replied “no I am happy to buy without, she seems fine”. I must say I was a little on edge and after insisting, he agreed and we went for a test drive.
I strongly believe the claimant to be committing fraudulent activity by buying a car privately for short period of time and once they've had their use they no longer require the car so have now made these false claims.
Can anyone shed any light please for peace of mind as I am stressing out about this as it seems completely unnecessary, shes even put a charge in where shes asking for £30 interest a day until the court date! I find this absurd!
I sold a car (BMW 330ci 2003 - 134k) late Jan, answered all questions truthfully, listing was as described, excellent condition and running perfectly, cat d bla bla bla, usual description of my ownership of several months, sold due to being a lil too juicy on fuel... I sold it to a guy who I felt like was in a rush and just wanted to buy and leave, didnt even test drive! I insisted and he still said no need however I still took him out for my own peace of mind, he was happy and just handed the cash over, didnt ask any questions on arrival, he did ask on the phone about the rocker cover gasket leak which I told him about and he was aware of this (common issue) and had me drop the price from 2400 to 2100. Purchased and left happy! or so I thought...
4 weeks later I get a phone call from a lady demanding full refund because its got some faults and accused me of lying about the car being serviced 3 days prior, I also found out it had driven over 4000 miles in 4 weeks and she was stating the tyres are in poor condition so I have misrepresented the condition and the garage shes taken it to have said it will cost £4000 to fix some engine leak or something. I not having sold many cars in my lifetime said leave it with me I need to see where I stand with this then later that day called her back and said sorry I cannot do anything as its sold as seen and I described it to the best I can. shes now taking me to court however I did NOT sell the car to her and never met her, she seems to be the sister of the chap I sold the car to so is this not a worthless case whereby I have never dealt with the claimant? furthermore I have read online re this caveat emptor and have proof where I serviced the car 3 days prior to her buying the car from a reputable garage, the car has been driven to what I think an excessive amount in a short period.
The previous letter/garage receipt I have received, I responded back to Mr M*** (claimant) stating I will NOT be refunding due to the following reasons:-
I have not sold the above car to the claimant named above (Doesn't even have the same surname as the chap who I sold the car to)
I am a private seller.
Vehicle purchased for £2100, NOT £2150. (see exhibit C)
Car details:- 2003 BMW 3 Series Reg:- ******* Mileage:- 134000
Vehicle was advertised & described to the best of my knowledge and was in full working order at the time of sale. (see exhibit A)
Serviced by a garage 2 days prior to selling. (see exhibit B)
Sold as seen receipt was signed by both parties. (see exhibit C)
MOT History confirms it was roadworthy at the time of sale. (See exhibit D)
Claimant (Mr ****) was not interested in a test drive on arrival and was happy to purchase without, So I insisted as I found this rather odd and wanted him to, for my own peace of mind, to be sure he was happy however I found him to be in a hurry to leave throughout.
I have found out the car has been driven nearly 4000 miles in 3 weeks. Compare exhibit A/B/C to Exhibit E (Sent from claimant).
I would like to point out that the nature of cars is such that faults can arise at any given time, he inspected the vehicle and I answered all of the questions he asked truthfully such as the rocker cover gasket was leaking oil and the car was pulling to one side, hence the drop in price. He then said “I've looked around and am happy to buy” to which I responded “lets go for a test drive” to which he replied “no I am happy to buy without, she seems fine”. I must say I was a little on edge and after insisting, he agreed and we went for a test drive.
I strongly believe the claimant to be committing fraudulent activity by buying a car privately for short period of time and once they've had their use they no longer require the car so have now made these false claims.
Can anyone shed any light please for peace of mind as I am stressing out about this as it seems completely unnecessary, shes even put a charge in where shes asking for £30 interest a day until the court date! I find this absurd!
So I have received a court letter dated in august however she has to pay a fee of £170 otherwise it will be struck out, I thought this should have been struck out already prior due to all this buyer beware (Caveat Emptor) but obviously not!
she states I have written excellent condition and drives flawlessly (which it did in my ownership), A car which is nearly 15yrs old with over 134k she has managed to drive 4000 miles in 4 weeks! then calls me up complaining that the tyres are worn and drives like a dog... I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the audacity!
I read someone on PH where someone wrote in the unlikely event of the buyer winning you can put forward a hiring charge of £30 per day is this likely to be accepted? down to the judge I guess and I know I am jumping to conclusion but if she wins this means she gets the 2k she paid plus another 2k for interest!
she states I have written excellent condition and drives flawlessly (which it did in my ownership), A car which is nearly 15yrs old with over 134k she has managed to drive 4000 miles in 4 weeks! then calls me up complaining that the tyres are worn and drives like a dog... I dont know whether to laugh or cry at the audacity!
I read someone on PH where someone wrote in the unlikely event of the buyer winning you can put forward a hiring charge of £30 per day is this likely to be accepted? down to the judge I guess and I know I am jumping to conclusion but if she wins this means she gets the 2k she paid plus another 2k for interest!
VladD said:
Indeed. Sounds like they're trying to con you. Don't answer to the phone to either of them again.
Appreciate it, I am an honest and truthful individual and strongly believe in karma so as you can all imagine would have described to the best of my ability!My only concern is shes paid a fee of £105 to submit a claim to the court and has now gotta pay £170 for the hearing by mid august which is likely she will, however I sold it to a Mr A and she is a Mrs M with a different surname and claims to be his sister however can she be a claimant although I have never dealt with her and she was not present at the time of sale?! Surely its got to be he himself as claimant!
So confused
IanCress said:
You sold the car in January, and it's now June. How long have you sat on this?
Also, the court letter is dated August?
I'm confuzzled.
I sold it in 22nd Jan she phones me in end of feb and opens/submits a court case in April and I have since put my defense through etc so I have been following all protocol but thought surely this would have been struck out before hearing seeing as it seems such a straight forward case! If she wanted the warranty or anything why buy privately, its inevitable for something to creep up on a car of this age and mileage! but anyhow the court date is august 22nd so long as she pays the hearing fee by end of July, if not then it will be struck out...Also, the court letter is dated August?
I'm confuzzled.
I must add she has taken the car to some garage and has managed to get a quote of £4000 to fix things like an oil leak from the sump section and other bits which are written on the invoice. but this is after driving the car 4000 miles in 4 weeks! plus I told him to test drive and he didnt want to! to top it off I told him on the phone your most welcome to bring an RAC inspection as that what I do.
The Surveyor said:
It can't have been in poor condition if she's managed to drive it for 4,000 miles in 4 weeks. That alone should be enough evidence to show that it wasn't the dog she's claiming.
Also, If it was her brothers name on the receipt, then she's claiming off the wrong person.
It looks like she's bought it for a long trip or holiday, now wants to hand it back and get all her money back. I can't see how she has a claim at all here IMHO
Yes both I and he signed a receipt and have two copies which I understand it may not be worth the paper its written on this should be enough to state I sold it to her brother and not her. That exactly what I thought, I have another vehicle and haven't managed to drive 4000 miles in 2 years, however it just makes me think these people haven't got anything better to do, I am worried that if she ends up winning because of whatever reason that she will get this £30 daily interest shes now charging me up to the date of the hearing that's like £2k plus! Also, If it was her brothers name on the receipt, then she's claiming off the wrong person.
It looks like she's bought it for a long trip or holiday, now wants to hand it back and get all her money back. I can't see how she has a claim at all here IMHO
48Valves said:
A lesson to others when selling a car.
Do not put anything that can be taken objectively in an advert. Stick to facts.
One mans drives perfectly in another mand bag pf spanners.
I understand where you're coming from however if you write drives perfectly and someone drives away on the day and breaks down that in reality is luck and I wouldn't dare contact the seller because I would have carried out all my check and researched about that particular car and to know what I need to look out for in advance, in my ownership the car drove flawlessly now if shes contacted me 4 weeks later racked up 4k miles its likely she was going to have to change tyres and problems can arise at anytime.Do not put anything that can be taken objectively in an advert. Stick to facts.
One mans drives perfectly in another mand bag pf spanners.
MadProfessor said:
My 2p's worth although I'm not a lawyer so it's probably worthless:
- If the name and address on the receipt is not hers then she has no claim against you surely? Did you complete and return the V5 document with his details on it? I always do this and you can even do it online.
- Can you counter-claim for any costs such as loss of earnings for attending court?
- My understanding of caveat emptor is that her only basis for suing you would be misrepresentation which she would have to prove
Yes, the v5 was all filled out correctly in the chaps name and both sold as seen receipts were also signed by he himself.- If the name and address on the receipt is not hers then she has no claim against you surely? Did you complete and return the V5 document with his details on it? I always do this and you can even do it online.
- Can you counter-claim for any costs such as loss of earnings for attending court?
- My understanding of caveat emptor is that her only basis for suing you would be misrepresentation which she would have to prove
I guess the counter claim will now be submitted as and when I am in court.
daveco said:
+1
To do 4,000 miles in 4 weeks on a 134k, 15 year old car that's known to go through oil and tyres quickly and then claim you mis-sold them the car...is a tad idiotic on their part.
Guaranteed the bloke who bought it off you then passed it onto a friend/family member with zero mechanical sympathy who decided a trip to Marbella and back would be a perfect way to run the car in...
I just hope the judge sees the truth and doesn't buy into her lies and discrepencies which to me are loud and clear... but that last part of your post made me chuckle :LTo do 4,000 miles in 4 weeks on a 134k, 15 year old car that's known to go through oil and tyres quickly and then claim you mis-sold them the car...is a tad idiotic on their part.
Guaranteed the bloke who bought it off you then passed it onto a friend/family member with zero mechanical sympathy who decided a trip to Marbella and back would be a perfect way to run the car in...
Edited by daveco on Thursday 8th June 14:06
daemon said:
You didnt sell her the car. End of.
You've all the paperwork to prove it.
She needs to take it up with the person she subsequently bought it off - family member or not.
What if she is representing him? surely it still needs to be him as the claimant and myself as the defendant correct?You've all the paperwork to prove it.
She needs to take it up with the person she subsequently bought it off - family member or not.
I guess there are a lot of what ifs and I will find out in due course what action (if any) she will take...
Likes Fast Cars said:
IANAL but it seems to me like you're on firm ground. I am assuming the brother sold it to her??? Hence her interest in it??? So she should sue him.
Can you check the ownership / registered owner details online? May be worth doing to get a clearer picture of the ownership.
I recall there is a schedule or rule for interest calculations (on the court website somewhere) which is nothing like £30 per day interest - total b
ks and I would think the judge will throw that out.
I have a feeling she is representing him, don't know why, he seemed to know what he was talking about when viewing the car but anyhow I am feeling a lil better seeing as others agree the interest shes added is completely stupid!Can you check the ownership / registered owner details online? May be worth doing to get a clearer picture of the ownership.
I recall there is a schedule or rule for interest calculations (on the court website somewhere) which is nothing like £30 per day interest - total b
ks and I would think the judge will throw that out.MK1RS Bruce said:
Seriously are you actually worried?? Anything that was written in the advert is completely subjective anyway.
I'm not worried as such its just something which is on my mind if you know what I mean... It's not nice knowing that I am having to fill out court forms and waste time on something as stupid as this, it's like if you wanted warranty, go to a trader or a dealership.Exactly, that was MY viewpoint on how the car has been for me, when I stated your welcome to bring an rac inspection he replied, no I have had a few of these cars before so no need. but as said before I think the biggest point so far is this woman appears to be the claimant whereby I have never met or dealt with her ever.
janesmith1950 said:
IANAL, however off the top of my head...
1) You did not sell the vehicle to the claimant, therefore no contract exists between the claimant and defendant, the claim must fail
2) Alternatively, the vehicle was sold "as seen" privately and no warranty given or implied
3) Alternatively, any claim for misrepresentation is denied
Hi could you elaborate on your 3rd point? Misrepresentation is what shes claiming for...1) You did not sell the vehicle to the claimant, therefore no contract exists between the claimant and defendant, the claim must fail
2) Alternatively, the vehicle was sold "as seen" privately and no warranty given or implied
3) Alternatively, any claim for misrepresentation is denied
Thanks
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
I think you need to share what you wrote in the advert with us. She/He/they? may have a case if you wrote...
Drives perfectly
Fault free
100% reliable
Won't let you down
Nothing needs doing
Won't need anything for the MOT
BMW reliability
etc etc
Here's the ad...Drives perfectly
Fault free
100% reliable
Won't let you down
Nothing needs doing
Won't need anything for the MOT
BMW reliability
etc etc
2003 BMW 330CI M SPORT CONVERTIBLE - AUTO FACELIFT
Serviced last week!
M Sport so has the following...
Auto Wipers
M Steering Wheel
Auto Xenon Headlights
Sat Nav (Inc Aux Output)
Electric Power Folding Mirrors
Full Electric Leather Memory Seats
I have since had the following done...
BBS LM Deep Dish Alloys Wheels (8J / 9J)
Upgraded BM54 75w Amp
LED Number Plate Lights
Black Kidney Grills
Rear Lip Spoiler
I have had the car coded for a few more extras such as
Front US Indicator DRL
Windows Close/Open from key fob
Soft top can be closed/opened from key fob
The car is cat D from 2012, apart from this 'history' it performs faultlessly, quick and handles perfectly. Its probably the worst time to sell given that these do increase during the summer however funds required for a family car (3 or 5 E series diesel)
ANY QUESTIONS... JUST ASK
Listed for £2400 however accepted £2100 due to the rocker cover gasket leaking which she acknowledges he knew about at the time of sale.
shake n bake said:
Who's name is on the court letter as the claimant? Does it match who you sold the car too?
Boosted LS1 said:
This. If it's her and not the person who bought the car then it's game over for her. You have no contract with her.
Correct, Court letter states the individual who I have never met or dealt with, I sold the car to a bloke and the claimant (on court letter) appears to be his sister.Andehh said:
IANAL but what he put on the advert is irrelevant, unless he stated explicitly '' I guarantee this car will not let you down at all in the next few months''. All of the above may be well & true on the Friday, but by the Monday all instantly become moot points?
OP - do not loose sleep over this. Get all your paperwork & evidence in order, which by the sounds of it you already have, and respond as & when you have to and just laugh her out of court. She doesn't have a hope in hell of winning this one, not a single bit of the situation swings anything in her favor?
Even TRYING to understand her point of view / plays devil's advocate I can't see what she hopes to achieve!? 4,000 miles in 1 month for a 15 year old / 134k car is very very good going!!!
As for the interest, you can claim around 8%, which by my crude reckoning is around 45p a day. £30!? fk off.
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work...
edit: And please please don't leave us hanging here, keep us updated throughout!
Hi everyone, first things first I'd like to thank everyone for your help so far... so its still going ahead, court date is on the 21st in Bristol County Court (for those of you up for coming along OP - do not loose sleep over this. Get all your paperwork & evidence in order, which by the sounds of it you already have, and respond as & when you have to and just laugh her out of court. She doesn't have a hope in hell of winning this one, not a single bit of the situation swings anything in her favor?
Even TRYING to understand her point of view / plays devil's advocate I can't see what she hopes to achieve!? 4,000 miles in 1 month for a 15 year old / 134k car is very very good going!!!
As for the interest, you can claim around 8%, which by my crude reckoning is around 45p a day. £30!? f
k off.https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work...
edit: And please please don't leave us hanging here, keep us updated throughout!
Edited by Andehh on Thursday 8th June 15:09
) so long as she pays the hearing fee otherwsie it will be struck out, thanks everyone, I appreciate your in depth input, I have just left it aside and am awaiting confirmation of this hearing from the courtsAndeh - thats exactly what I was thinking, the interest she has put down is crazy!
fivepointnine - this buyer obviously had high expectations of a used car and wasn't the confrontational type and was very vague in his replies but I was just selling a car not making friends :L
E36GUY - I have asked the court to strike the case out however they simply don't do this, I think its after the hearing etc is all paid for the judge looks at the case before the hearing and strikes it out
Yipper - of course it matched the description hence hwy it was sold to the buyer, I then heard nothing until 4 weeks & 4000 miles later when she sent me a letter from her garage to confirm the work etc
The paperwork is all genuine, I have case numbers etc which I have confirmed with moneyclaimonlnine
Edited by muussaah on Friday 28th July 15:00
Hoofy said:
I'd love to see how many times she swears in court.
PS Not sure you should be posting her name on here.
its not end of the world as I am sure there are many individuals with that name. An address etc is more confidential than a name I think but I don't mind removing if needs bePS Not sure you should be posting her name on here.
Hudson - I can assure you I won't be giving whatsoever, I will stand my ground because I am a man of principle, I am very fussy when buying a car of my own and look at all aspects and even research common issues etc before any committments so I would want my buyer to feel the same and even though I mentioned this to him he very vaguely replied "I know about these cars so can check it all myself" or something along those lines. I will produce all the evidence and see what the judge decides but at the face of it all it seems like it'll be a straight forward case in my favour
danllama said:
Read from start to finish. What an amusing read. I'd love to meet this woman for a quick chat, just to get an idea of how her head works!
Exactly my thoughts! I have also just been notified she has paid the additional £170 (on top of the £105 submissions fee) for the hearing to actually take place on the 22nd Aug 17, just makes you think what on earth is going on.I rang the court this morning to see if I can in anyway have the case struck out as I have never sold the car to the claimant or know who she is however they just told me as she has paid the hearing fee it will go to hearing where the outcome will be decided.
Du1point8 said:
1st question in court...
1) Did the defendant sell the car to Ms X...
A: Not unless Ms X is in fact a bloke called Mr Y as signed on the V5 and she has undergone treatment.
Dismiss case!!
This made me laugh a lil... I hope its as simple as this and for those of you asking, the v5 was sent off etc1) Did the defendant sell the car to Ms X...
A: Not unless Ms X is in fact a bloke called Mr Y as signed on the V5 and she has undergone treatment.
Dismiss case!!
she claims to be the sister of the chap I sold the car to, could she make out she is representing him and have her name down as the claimant for this reason? surely not?
tomsimes said:
Assuming I've looked for the correct Court, it doesn't look like it'll be at Bristol due to 'severe flooding':
https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/...
Correct, Got a letter this morning to state its now at the Bristol Magistrates due to flooding, I spoke to a law firm re this but all im getting is that its down to the decision on the day and to make sure I have all the particulars of my defense etc. Its annoying as I just want it over and done with, thanks for the support tho guys, appreciate it a lot and will keep you all posted.https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/...
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