Older supercars, warranties and engine / gearbox failures
Discussion
Hello.
Really interested to canvass the opinions of fellow PHers and their experiences.
Fairly regular supercar owner. Owned a host of 360 and 430 over the last few years. Imo they are about the apex of supercar value and what you want from these cars.
But... Of late, and I am getting on a bit now..! It's struck me that the risks attached to owning one of these cars is particularly high, especially if there's no warranty. I've been struggling to pull the trigger on buying another one precisely for this reason.
I realise people will tell me "the engines are strong / they are more reliable cars than they used to be" but engine failures still happen. And a Ferrari engine rebuild is c. £40,000... Let alone more common DCT failures in slightly newer models (458, Huracan etc)
Given these are older cars now, warranties are a particularly tricky issue. Most generic warranty companies won't cover them and any dealer warranty might be limited to something like a £5,000 claim limit which obviously only scrapes the sides of a full rebuild repair.
So how do people play it? How many are currently driving these cars with absolutely no warranty cover (as I did)? How many people have suffered major failures? And are there smaller independent companies out there willing to offer warranties on these older cars? I think Porsche only covers for 15 years, so soon the average GT3 could become a major liability to own.
All thoughts welcome!
Really interested to canvass the opinions of fellow PHers and their experiences.
Fairly regular supercar owner. Owned a host of 360 and 430 over the last few years. Imo they are about the apex of supercar value and what you want from these cars.
But... Of late, and I am getting on a bit now..! It's struck me that the risks attached to owning one of these cars is particularly high, especially if there's no warranty. I've been struggling to pull the trigger on buying another one precisely for this reason.
I realise people will tell me "the engines are strong / they are more reliable cars than they used to be" but engine failures still happen. And a Ferrari engine rebuild is c. £40,000... Let alone more common DCT failures in slightly newer models (458, Huracan etc)
Given these are older cars now, warranties are a particularly tricky issue. Most generic warranty companies won't cover them and any dealer warranty might be limited to something like a £5,000 claim limit which obviously only scrapes the sides of a full rebuild repair.
So how do people play it? How many are currently driving these cars with absolutely no warranty cover (as I did)? How many people have suffered major failures? And are there smaller independent companies out there willing to offer warranties on these older cars? I think Porsche only covers for 15 years, so soon the average GT3 could become a major liability to own.
All thoughts welcome!
Cheers for the post
Unfortunately, I've heard con rods and bearings can go in the 430 engine. Especially if it's used hard, which is really what most people will be doing with these cars.
Yes, variators an issue for both cars, but don't (I think) cause engine damage per se, they are just an expensive fix.. Unless you're saying the variators caused your top end damage?
Even basic gearbox internals work is going to go over any £5k claim limit.
Having to find breaker engines because rebuild quotes are so high is not unheard of.. I can't imagine anyone buying fairly entry-level Ferraris wants that on their plate! :/
Unfortunately, I've heard con rods and bearings can go in the 430 engine. Especially if it's used hard, which is really what most people will be doing with these cars.
Yes, variators an issue for both cars, but don't (I think) cause engine damage per se, they are just an expensive fix.. Unless you're saying the variators caused your top end damage?
Even basic gearbox internals work is going to go over any £5k claim limit.
Having to find breaker engines because rebuild quotes are so high is not unheard of.. I can't imagine anyone buying fairly entry-level Ferraris wants that on their plate! :/
Edited by 360430Lover on Saturday 12th April 10:36
Absolutely. And obviously plenty of people will go that route if they're not as stupid as I probably was in my 30s!
But I think those lucky enough to own one of these cars will tell you that they do offer something pretty special that basically can't be found anymore (I'd say a GT3 is the same ball park but we're talking a £90k+ car even today)
It kinda got me thinking.. Surely there's a company out there somewhere that could offer legitimate "classic supercar" - type warranties? Perhaps it could be a similar type of proposal to the Audi "named component" so let's say, simply the engine and gearbox. £2k a year? Surely this type of warranty would massively help sales of these cars? And as people are right to say - they are in the main quite reliable considering the nature of them - then it's likely going to pay off for whoever sets it up? I'm almost tempted myself!
I think these cars are slow sellers for this very reason. I think most prospective buyers are realistic enough to know there's going to be some maintenance involved, but to them be spanked with a major failure on top asks a lot from the average "entry-level" supercar buyer.
But I think those lucky enough to own one of these cars will tell you that they do offer something pretty special that basically can't be found anymore (I'd say a GT3 is the same ball park but we're talking a £90k+ car even today)
It kinda got me thinking.. Surely there's a company out there somewhere that could offer legitimate "classic supercar" - type warranties? Perhaps it could be a similar type of proposal to the Audi "named component" so let's say, simply the engine and gearbox. £2k a year? Surely this type of warranty would massively help sales of these cars? And as people are right to say - they are in the main quite reliable considering the nature of them - then it's likely going to pay off for whoever sets it up? I'm almost tempted myself!
I think these cars are slow sellers for this very reason. I think most prospective buyers are realistic enough to know there's going to be some maintenance involved, but to them be spanked with a major failure on top asks a lot from the average "entry-level" supercar buyer.
It's your choice to take risks. But there's currently not really options for those that don't want to..? And do we want these cars rotting because they are a nightmare to sell (trust me, I know..), or do we want them driven, with ownership as stress free as possible?
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
Finally I can reply... Thanks PH..
In terms of a previous reply: long term costs of a warranty do build up of course, but for vast majority of us, we dip in and out of various cars and not many plan their finance-bought Ferraris as "keepers." The "thrill" of any Ferrari does wane a bit after a year, so few would benefit from long-term ownership without a warranty
However, as seen by a few other responders, these cars (newer or older) come with distinct liabilities.
The Getrag gearbox in 458 / Cali was tuned for faster more aggressive shifting (as compared with AMG products) and this led to quite a few failures. So with any DCT, an excited Ferrari owner has two ticking timebombs to contend with. My argument is people will just pass up on ownership for this very reason. That's a lot of anxiety for anyone, especially younger owners that are balancing numerous other living costs = these cars are notoriously slow sellers. It can't be a coincidence...
A previous replier mentioned rust. These ally cars don't rust, they corrode or oxidise. But yes, that can happen. More concerning is the fact all the rubbers dry up and the electrics tend to give up on cars that sit for too long. Another Ferrari / supercar issue to manage / stuff like dashboard replacements can also be hellishly expensive.. If you can even get hold of a replacement.. And then there's the never-ending roof issues, both soft and hard top. Apparently the original Cali roof is a monstrously expensive fix, if it goes wrong. And it does go wrong.
Insurance / warranty companies do make money, yes. It couldn't work any other way. But peace of mind is worth it, surely? I just find it a little odd that so few / no packages for these cars are readily available
In terms of a previous reply: long term costs of a warranty do build up of course, but for vast majority of us, we dip in and out of various cars and not many plan their finance-bought Ferraris as "keepers." The "thrill" of any Ferrari does wane a bit after a year, so few would benefit from long-term ownership without a warranty
However, as seen by a few other responders, these cars (newer or older) come with distinct liabilities.
The Getrag gearbox in 458 / Cali was tuned for faster more aggressive shifting (as compared with AMG products) and this led to quite a few failures. So with any DCT, an excited Ferrari owner has two ticking timebombs to contend with. My argument is people will just pass up on ownership for this very reason. That's a lot of anxiety for anyone, especially younger owners that are balancing numerous other living costs = these cars are notoriously slow sellers. It can't be a coincidence...
A previous replier mentioned rust. These ally cars don't rust, they corrode or oxidise. But yes, that can happen. More concerning is the fact all the rubbers dry up and the electrics tend to give up on cars that sit for too long. Another Ferrari / supercar issue to manage / stuff like dashboard replacements can also be hellishly expensive.. If you can even get hold of a replacement.. And then there's the never-ending roof issues, both soft and hard top. Apparently the original Cali roof is a monstrously expensive fix, if it goes wrong. And it does go wrong.
Insurance / warranty companies do make money, yes. It couldn't work any other way. But peace of mind is worth it, surely? I just find it a little odd that so few / no packages for these cars are readily available
Edited by 360430Lover on Sunday 13th April 12:04
1 how much did you spend on warranty costs,
2 how much did you spend on repairs which weren’t covered under warranty
3 what was the cost of repairs performed under warranty
In response to this..
My tale is complicated! I never paid for a warranty. However, I've experienced cars SO bad I've rejected them (twice). We're talking over £10-£15k works needed out of the blocks.
I had a bundled warranty (so free) with a 360 and had the AC condenser done, so something like £800 all in. FOC. So that did me quite well. The dealer also sorted a sh*t ton of issues with my 360 early on (leaks, sensors, door locks, alternator list goes on) of which I was grateful for.
But yes, I had numerous other costs, but then again I was prepared for those..
As for resale and values.. Sure, these cars do eventually sell. For what actual value, we never know or course. But I've had enormous discounts on 360 / 430 over the years. £10k off a 360. £15k off a 430.
If there were concrete warranties out there, I think these cars would fly out and at market value.
2 how much did you spend on repairs which weren’t covered under warranty
3 what was the cost of repairs performed under warranty
In response to this..
My tale is complicated! I never paid for a warranty. However, I've experienced cars SO bad I've rejected them (twice). We're talking over £10-£15k works needed out of the blocks.
I had a bundled warranty (so free) with a 360 and had the AC condenser done, so something like £800 all in. FOC. So that did me quite well. The dealer also sorted a sh*t ton of issues with my 360 early on (leaks, sensors, door locks, alternator list goes on) of which I was grateful for.
But yes, I had numerous other costs, but then again I was prepared for those..
As for resale and values.. Sure, these cars do eventually sell. For what actual value, we never know or course. But I've had enormous discounts on 360 / 430 over the years. £10k off a 360. £15k off a 430.
If there were concrete warranties out there, I think these cars would fly out and at market value.
davek_964 said:
What a strange statement to make.
Plenty of people own their Ferraris long term without a warranty. I owned mine for 7 years, I knew several other owners who'd had them similar or longer. And if they do sell, it's often to buy another Ferrari.
If the thrill of a Ferrari wears off for you that quickly, you're probably buying the wrong car in the first place. I still found mine excellent after 7 years.
Your entire argument is a little strange. You think that relatively cheap warranties should be available for older supercars to mitigate risk to potential buyers.
But if there is that much risk, the warranties aren't going to be cheap.
If my comments were that "strange," then no one would ever take out a warranty and warranties wouldn't exist... Clearly they do, because they do.. There is just a hole in the market when it comes to.. Strangely.. The most expensive cars to live with / repair. Perhaps that's because as a liability they are actually too much of a liability... Which really says it all.. Plenty of people own their Ferraris long term without a warranty. I owned mine for 7 years, I knew several other owners who'd had them similar or longer. And if they do sell, it's often to buy another Ferrari.
If the thrill of a Ferrari wears off for you that quickly, you're probably buying the wrong car in the first place. I still found mine excellent after 7 years.
Your entire argument is a little strange. You think that relatively cheap warranties should be available for older supercars to mitigate risk to potential buyers.
But if there is that much risk, the warranties aren't going to be cheap.
Edited by davek_964 on Sunday 13th April 12:59
Finding the same think exciting after 7 years is perhaps the stranger comment..? Cars aren't wives.. And even then..
M138 said:
I know you’ve had some lovely cars Gary and appreciate your advice.
They were good with my brother getting it sorted.
I know in the ideal world buying a Ferrari and affording the upkeep of one go hand-in-hand but quite a few of us are guilty of pushing our luck financially when it comes to a dream car, just use a bit of caution as you don’t want your dream turning into a nightmare.
100%They were good with my brother getting it sorted.
I know in the ideal world buying a Ferrari and affording the upkeep of one go hand-in-hand but quite a few of us are guilty of pushing our luck financially when it comes to a dream car, just use a bit of caution as you don’t want your dream turning into a nightmare.
I doubt many imagine buying a £50k Ferrari 360 could end up costing about 90% of its value again to sort it out..
MDL111 said:
Without knowing anything about the insurance market, I suspect a comprehensive third-party warranty on cars of that age would be punitively expensive. My reasoning being that there are too few buyers of the warranty to make it work financially when you compare # of purchasers with the cost per claim. And at that age the # of claims will not be zero and the cost of each claim (even if it is not a catastrophic one) will make it not viable and definitely not a good risk adjusted return.
True.. Soon we will have not only 360 / 430 / Gallardo.. We'll have a bunch of over 15yo 991 GT3 with both a famously dicky engine and PDK. And the masses of 458s out there that Ferrari won't touch (over 15yo). So it is interesting times ahead for relatively high tech cars that are (or were) very popular and sought after. I know for I would not touch a 991 GT3 with a 20 foot pole unless it had Porsche warranty attached. What happens when that car starts to get old? Same for 458s too. It's a lotta car and a lotta fix for the unfortunate ones.
MDL111 said:
Without knowing anything about the insurance market, I suspect a comprehensive third-party warranty on cars of that age would be punitively expensive. My reasoning being that there are too few buyers of the warranty to make it work financially when you compare # of purchasers with the cost per claim. And at that age the # of claims will not be zero and the cost of each claim (even if it is not a catastrophic one) will make it not viable and definitely not a good risk adjusted return.
To your point directly, I actually think there'd be quite a few takers for warranties @ £2-3k pa for people that want more peace of mind. 1,000 people taking up engine / gearbox warranties for the probably less than 5 big failures (per 1000) surely pays off quite handsomely for a company willing to offer it?
Unless.... The industry knows that these cars aren't quite as strong and reliable as is commonly claimed? I've actually thought for a while that DCT gearboxes could be a really problem for the used car market. They're complex, relatively expensive to repair (even compared to single clutch boxes) and they do like to break.
ANOpax said:
I really think you’re tilting at windmills here and the concern that you’re voicing happens to every car through its lifecycle unless there is something truly catastrophic lurking without a fix (looking at you BMW V10 M5).
We’ve run 3 different DCT boxed Ferraris for the equivalent of 13 years. The oldest one is 14 this year (owned for the last 8 years and it still delivers a thrill every time I drive it). One of them had the sensors replaced prior to my wife buying it three years ago (it’ll be 12 this year) and her previous car gave us two years of trouble free motoring from age 10-12.
I hope I haven’t just jinxed myself with the above but I am ready for gearbox rebuild expense as they will all need rebuilding eventually. It’s a case of when, not if. But ‘twas ever thus. Same deal with the F1 actuators on F355 onwards and they aren’t cheap to replace either. And this is why cars depreciate the way they do. F355s were cheap for a long time because of F1 issues, Valve guide issues and manifold issues. These were expensive to fix relative to the value of the car. The same is true today of DCT box equipped cars. And you’re correct that the perception of the maintenance liability will hamper values but their time will come when the value of the car appreciates and the fix isn’t so relatively expensive - as has happened with F355s.
Actuator rebuild isn't such a high ticket fix. In fact, all single clutch boxes, component by component are OK. Ultimately it's the obscene cost of clutch discs and flywheels that make single clutch ownership unnecessarily expensiveWe’ve run 3 different DCT boxed Ferraris for the equivalent of 13 years. The oldest one is 14 this year (owned for the last 8 years and it still delivers a thrill every time I drive it). One of them had the sensors replaced prior to my wife buying it three years ago (it’ll be 12 this year) and her previous car gave us two years of trouble free motoring from age 10-12.
I hope I haven’t just jinxed myself with the above but I am ready for gearbox rebuild expense as they will all need rebuilding eventually. It’s a case of when, not if. But ‘twas ever thus. Same deal with the F1 actuators on F355 onwards and they aren’t cheap to replace either. And this is why cars depreciate the way they do. F355s were cheap for a long time because of F1 issues, Valve guide issues and manifold issues. These were expensive to fix relative to the value of the car. The same is true today of DCT box equipped cars. And you’re correct that the perception of the maintenance liability will hamper values but their time will come when the value of the car appreciates and the fix isn’t so relatively expensive - as has happened with F355s.
Will 360s and Gallardos really appreciate? I think there's too many of them. The 360 era was when Ferrari sales really took off. Probably too many around to result in huge appreciation. Could be wrong!
Sort of?
It's also more validation for the idea of a warranty for older supercars..?
They cost a lot to own. It'd be nice if they also weren't very occasionally ruinous to own..
ANOpax said:
When I bought my F355 ten years ago, actuators couldn’t be rebuilt. They had to be replaced at a cost of €4,500. That was c.10% of the value of the car back then. With F355’s now above €100k and actuator rebuilds possible, the liability has diminished (to be replaced by other liabilities such as certain electronic parts availability).
This is why I feel a certain sense of déjà vu with your concerns.
This is why I feel a certain sense of déjà vu with your concerns.
Edited by ANOpax on Sunday 13th April 21:35
It's actually interesting seeing what's happening now with the original R8s
Ie. There's quite a few young buyers of these cars, stretching themselves to buy £35k examples and they get faced with £80k supercar repair bills
I know we love to have these smug aphorisms about what people can afford but clearly an iconic car like the R8, and there are plenty of them about, is going to attract all sorts of buyers. Early S Tronics I think can still be Audi warrantied but I doubt the early V8 and V10 can be anymore. So you have this relatively cheap entry supercar and then the potential for a rebuild on a V10 (and I've seen those engines in bits). They fail.
There must be some pretty grim stories of young people getting into some pretty serious debt over what should be an enjoyable "hobby.."
Ie. There's quite a few young buyers of these cars, stretching themselves to buy £35k examples and they get faced with £80k supercar repair bills
I know we love to have these smug aphorisms about what people can afford but clearly an iconic car like the R8, and there are plenty of them about, is going to attract all sorts of buyers. Early S Tronics I think can still be Audi warrantied but I doubt the early V8 and V10 can be anymore. So you have this relatively cheap entry supercar and then the potential for a rebuild on a V10 (and I've seen those engines in bits). They fail.
There must be some pretty grim stories of young people getting into some pretty serious debt over what should be an enjoyable "hobby.."
ANOpax said:
When I bought my F355 ten years ago, actuators couldn’t be rebuilt. They had to be replaced at a cost of €4,500. That was c.10% of the value of the car back then. With F355’s now above €100k and actuator rebuilds possible, the liability has diminished (to be replaced by other liabilities such as certain electronic parts availability).
This is why I feel a certain sense of déjà vu with your concerns.
This is why I feel a certain sense of déjà vu with your concerns.
Edited by ANOpax on Sunday 13th April 21:35
Absolutely. Everything you say is true.
But my point is surely we can get warranties going to cover these cars? It's definitely a niche cuz no one is doing it!
But my point is surely we can get warranties going to cover these cars? It's definitely a niche cuz no one is doing it!
ANOpax said:
As you point out, running older supercars is a gamble. That’s why the price of admission is low but the stakes are high.
If you want one, you’ve got to ask yourself one question:“Do I feel lucky?”…
If you want one, you’ve got to ask yourself one question:“Do I feel lucky?”…
grumpynuts said:
I think some folk get hung up on having a warranty on an expensive sports car. Buy the best you can afford, then get a thorough service done so you know of any issues.The next thing is to put aside an amount of cash each year for maintenance and get it serviced each year. The best way to keep a high end sports car reliable is to use the thing regularly and stop fretting about mileage.
I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.
911 engines are - by sheer dint of how many there are - pretty solid (outside of the known weaknesses which anyone should be clear eyed about) AND can be rebuilt at half if not a third of the money a Ferrari build project is going to set anyone back. Getting a 991 block wouldn't be hard. Finding a Ferrari V8 block in good condition would be. And then older Ferrari parts on top of that.. I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.
However, 991s and Ferrari 360s are similar ish money.. So you get the reason why someone might be more hesitant about buying an old Ferrari. And by the way, the way these older V8s are priced currently is a complete joke. These cars sit and sit and sit because the vast majority are £10k overs and everyone knows it. God only knows who is paying £65-75k for an F1 360 (or why they ever would) but that's the joy of the current market.
You're right re servicing, of course. But it's not uncommon to see service gaps in Ferrari ownership. Oil analysis is definitely worth doing with these cars for various reasons. So is regular checking of the dicky Ferrari manifolds (or just take them out altogether).
grumpynuts said:
I think some folk get hung up on having a warranty on an expensive sports car. Buy the best you can afford, then get a thorough service done so you know of any issues.The next thing is to put aside an amount of cash each year for maintenance and get it serviced each year. The best way to keep a high end sports car reliable is to use the thing regularly and stop fretting about mileage.
I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.
Oh and btw there's far more chance of engine failure in a car that is driven close or at redline with regularity. Cars that sit spring other kinds of issues. I bought a 911 at 11 years old with no warranty, i added 60k miles in 10 years with zero issues,just expected maintence and age related small component failures.The biggest thing was the exhaust boxes rotted out,but i knew it was coming.
I had a great time with the car and am sure the next owner has bought a good,well used but well maintained car.
If i had fancied a Ferrari,I'd have followed the same plan, maintainnit well but use the thing,they love it and are more reliable.Garage queens give problems,regularly used ones don't.
andyr said:
To the OP. I have a 458 and feel the same as you do.
You can get a warranty from Warranty Wise. They seem pretty good. Just over 3k for 2 years. Any one claim capped at 10k and would cover the ICE system also.
Power15 covers engine, gearbox and some suspension parts ( I’ve claimed for these )
A warranty is like any insurance product. It depends on your appetite for risk.
For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?
Exactly. Sadly, Warranty Wise won't do cars older than about 10, maybe 12 years old. So that's all 360s and 430s out of the picture there. And yes if I was fortunate enough to reach 458 levels one day, I'd buy one from Ferrari. You can get a warranty from Warranty Wise. They seem pretty good. Just over 3k for 2 years. Any one claim capped at 10k and would cover the ICE system also.
Power15 covers engine, gearbox and some suspension parts ( I’ve claimed for these )
A warranty is like any insurance product. It depends on your appetite for risk.
For those of you who say “put it in a fund” and “I’ve never needed a warranty”. Sure. But then do you drive your car on third party insurance ? I suspect not - you have fullly comp insurance. But why not save some money and have basic car insurance - you’ll never be in an accident, right ?
I can only assume most other owners have that 40 grand emergency pot on standby
MDL111 said:
I switched the FF to third-party about 3-4 years ago as fully comp cost 6.5k a year with a 10k deductible - not worth it to me
Edit: I think that was the same year I decided to stop renewing the warranty
Jesus. How old are you? 12? Edit: I think that was the same year I decided to stop renewing the warranty
My old £72k F430 was only around £600 full comp and that's with a write off in the last 5 years.. FFs are just over £100k aren't they?
MDL111 said:
I looked up the cost for a replacement engine a couple of days ago - a refurbished exchange engine for the FF is c. 30k from Eurospares (and a new one c. 73k) - the refurbished one does not sound so bad imo. I looked it up as a replacement engine for the 997 is supposedly 100k or thereabouts, which I thought is ridiculous. So for the 911 I would get a warranty if there was a comprehensive one on offer (Porsche does one for cars of that age in Germany at 1,800 Euros, but the model unfortunately does not qualify / only for the "standard" 996/997 engines).
So I have changed my mind a little from my previous statement, esp in terms of saleability of a car, a decent warranty for call it 2-3k would be something I would consider.
Yup. Plus specialist labour at least £100ph.. So I have changed my mind a little from my previous statement, esp in terms of saleability of a car, a decent warranty for call it 2-3k would be something I would consider.
Full rebuilds can be hefty in labour. Engine swaps will add up too.
Edited by 360430Lover on Tuesday 6th May 22:32
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