RE: PH Blog: Audi calls a truce

RE: PH Blog: Audi calls a truce

Friday 17th February 2012

PH Blog: Audi calls a truce

Does the new RS4 herald the end of the German power war? Harris reckons it might



I've written more about Audis in the past two months than I have for the past five years. There's lots of new metal coming from the land of the four rings. This week we have a new RS4. Last week we had an uprated TT RS with red wheels. Ew.

Anyways, there we were thinking it might be canned when Audi sends everyone some photos and a spec sheet of a buxom looking small estate car called the RS4. On its own, this would be of little significance, but I have a feeling in my waters that the new, third-generation RS4 has unwittingly signalled the end of an era that we currently call the 'power war'.

TT RS Plus - plus power, plus chintz...
TT RS Plus - plus power, plus chintz...
In years to come, when people try and identify the moment car manufacturers were cured of the impulse to wave their genitals at each other, it might be Wednesday 15 February 2012 - the day of the embargo for all RS4 information.

I will now attempt to support this theory.

Audi has been at the forefront of the power race for over a decade now. Unable to match BMW M or even Mercedes AMG at the end of the 90s, it took the decision to enlist the help of Cosworth and boost its 2.7-litre bi-turbo V6 to 380bhp. I remember the B5 RS4 launch in Munich: we were told the cars had 155mph limiters and they all sailed into the 170s. Audi engineers used the word 'tolerance' and then sniggered.

Cosworth unleashed power war with B5 RS4
Cosworth unleashed power war with B5 RS4
The original B5 RS4 became a cult car because it was so fast, usable and tweakable. Owners didn't care that people like me crapped on about steering feel, it would take the kids and the dog and, after MTM had messed with it, cruise at 180mph to Geneva.

BMW never felt the need to respond to the RS4. Mercedes gave us the C32 AMG, which had nothing like the firepower on paper but was so much more violent than the claimed 349hp that the V8 362hp C55 which followed never felt quite as quick. But Audi remained the boss for power.

Further supported by the release of the first RS6 - complete mit 450hp twin-turbo V8, which pre-dated the 479hp E55 AMG Kompressor. Which didn't have anything less than 500hp according the German TuV organization. And so it went on.

Meet the new V8, same as the old V8
Meet the new V8, same as the old V8
Now look, I'm not going to list the increases and swings in power between ze Germans, or even what was going on in the US, but it was quite clear that Audi always felt it necessary to have the biggest trouser bulge. BMW had a 500hp M5, Audi produced a 580hp RS6. Whatever Audi's cars lacked in dynamic terms, they recouped through knuckle-size.

And now we have a 450hp RS4. No turbochargers, 30bhp more, and the same torque as the B7 RS4 - which was launched back in 2006. That last fact is eye-opening.The new RS4 is unlikely to weigh less than the B7 because it has a heavy dual-clutch gearbox and is physically bigger, so it is unlikely to feel any quicker than the car it replaces. Which is now seven years old.

Is this progress? I don't know, in fact I'm struggling to know how to respond to the specification of the new RS4. As someone who has whinged in and on several magazines/blogs/websites about the evils of ever-increasing outputs that help conceal the crazy mass of these vehicles, I now find myself sitting looking at the vitals of a car which, according to my mantra, should be applauded for detaching itself from the cycle-of-evil-horsepower and I feel what seasoned interwebbers refer to as 'meh'. 450hp: that all you got Audi? World class hypocrisy, I know.

B7 RS4 just as fast as the new one
B7 RS4 just as fast as the new one
Pathetic, isn't it? Perhaps it's the mechanical similarity to the B7 version that means the new car doesn't capture the imagination like the last two versions, maybe we expected something more - I don't know. Either way, the guts are disappointed.

But this is surely a milestone in one of two ways. The great power-aggressors of Ingolstadt have stood firm and called-away their heavy artillery. If this can be viewed as an end to hostilities in Germany, then that's probably a good thing because it will force them to compete for more sensible honours. Kerb weight would be a good place to begin.

Equally, this might just be a statement of intent from Quattro GmbH. It feels the RS brand is now established enough to no longer need a power figure that steals glances on the newsstand and on Google. If so, it's a brave decision at a time when Mercedes will sell you a C63 estate with 487hp and so much more torque that it is almost in different class to the RS4.

I just have this lingering feeling that the RS4 marks a tipping point in the evolution of the very fast car. When a brand that has defined itself by out-thrusting its rivals settles back and says 'enough', I think we can call that a significant event.

Next week, Audi will announce an 860hp RS6, and I will never utter another word on this subject.

 

 

Author
Discussion

b14

Original Poster:

1,060 posts

187 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Realistically though, what engine have they got that would (a) fit; and (b) give you 500+ bhp? I'm not sure we've heard anything about the V6 boosting quite that hard and certainly the V10 from the R8 or the RS6 would be a step too far in terms of size.

Not saying Harris is wrong but they need to leave some headroom for the RS6 which is't going to top 600bhp I don't think.

TobesH

550 posts

206 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
An interesting observation Chris. I have to say I was thinking Audi's new RS4 would have been powered by a V6 twin turbo lump, uprated from the S4 in the name of efficiency and environmental compassion; Greener but still kicking out 550 fast ones! Maybe Audi are saving money and using up a last batch of their wonderful V8 engines?

Whatever the reasoning, there was no way the power war was going to continue, for Pete's sake we have hot hatches now with 350 galloping nags as standard.

truck71

2,328 posts

171 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Sincerely hope this is right, if 450hp became the constant and mass reduced model on model everyone wins. Still wouldn't buy an Audi though since mine is so horrible it's tarnished them for a good while.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
NA to compete with the outgoing M3. And will the F10 M3 also be NA?

Or are Audi simply using up the spare engines they will no longer need for the RS5 since that is a sales flop?

Tankman

176 posts

228 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Or are Audi simply using up the spare engines they will no longer need for the RS5 since that is a sales flop?
I reckon that's probably quite close to the truth.

Nors

1,291 posts

154 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
"Next week, Audi will announce an 860hp RS6, and I will never utter another word on this subject."

laugh

"Autoexpress" (I know) states, the next RS6 will have a 550bhp version of the new S6 Turbo V8. If so, that is obviously less than the C6 RS6 (but probably bags more torque)and would be a major revelation in having a newer model performance version with less power!!!

Mind you, the B8 S4 has less power than the previous B7 S4, yet, it's still quicker. So it is possible obviously.

As Chris says though, weight saving has to be the next technological advance surely.

I also suspect this is power war over!



Pauly-b

131 posts

188 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
I guess the use of the engine is to save funds with x amount being ordered for the RS5 - Still a little disappointed in this, not sure there's anything here to get me out of my B7 RS4 if I'm honest sadly...

enroz

98 posts

164 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Can't really agreed with you as vehicle progression does not stop just because someone mentions too much power.

Remember the crazy figures of 200bhp for the Sierra Cosworth or the mental 360bhp of the Lotus Carlton which was deemed a heath risk because it was 'so' fast.

I think manufacturers will be a bit more cautious with the higher end models due to green issues, but there will always be the special car that you want above all others, mainly based on facts and figures which will have large horses involved.

Can you imagine a world where AMG, M & RS divisions complete for the lowest CO2 emmissions?

I think Audi want to be grown up with the new A4RS, but will probably change their minds when they don't sell very well, mainly due to the fact the it has not distinguished itself from the previous model.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Nors said:
I also suspect this is power war over!
Didn't Stephan Reil ( Audi RS Chief) declare that a few years ago?

Audi quits power race - - Source: Autocar


Audi’s S and RS ranges will no longer offer more power than the equivalent models from AMG or BMW M-Power. Stephan Reil, the General Manager of Development at Quattro Gmbh, the company responsible for Audi’s RS models, claimed that, ‘continuing to increase the power outputs is not the way forward. With more power the car normally gets heavier and then you need more power again.’

Taking a sideswipe at AMG, which recently launched the 603bhp S65 AMG, Reil said ‘with a rear-wheel-drive car, all you succeed in doing is lighting up the yellow traction control sign. Our drivetrain allows us to transfer the power to the road.’

Reil said the Quattro Gmbh brand will develop cars that combined high power outputs with ‘outstanding driving dynamics and road handling.’ Audi is planning to adopt a new naming structure (SQ3 to SW8) for its sporting models.

vjj

592 posts

238 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Monkey -I hope you are right.

There is so much more to the whole driving experience than outright poweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.

What is more important is the way the power is delivered - take the M5 V10 for example - is there really any difference between the 400hp or 500hp modes? Not in my experience.To take advantage of the latter you need to be revving the nuts off it on a track.

Seems to me the ideal, in whatever class of road vehicle you care to mention, AWD or RWD,is around 400hp with 400ft/lbs or so of torque across a broad rev range,combined with good brakes and decent steering.

Anything more is surplus to requirements on a public road in the real world.

I think the manufacturers should concentrate on making their performance models as nice to drive in as many situations as possible.


Mike Gill

51 posts

170 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

monthefish

20,439 posts

230 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
I think it would be a dangerous game for a manufacturer to play to keep power/torque the same without reducing the weight to make it quicker than the previous model.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
monthefish said:
I think it would be a dangerous game for a manufacturer to play to keep power/torque the same without reducing the weight to make it quicker than the previous model.
Porsche have made a start on this front.

Fot me 1200kgs is perfect.

E38Ross

34,947 posts

211 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
I thought it ended when bmw released the m5 will less power than the RS6, but this is still a big thing.

The next m3 will be about the same 450bhp but will almost certainly be a turbocharged straight 6. But I suspect it'll be slightly lighter than the outgoing m3 ad the normal 3er is lighter plus the engine will be lighter.

Strawman

6,463 posts

206 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
More details please on this new 860 BHP RS6 you mention at the end.

Nors

1,291 posts

154 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Mermaid said:
Didn't Stephan Reil ( Audi RS Chief) declare that a few years ago?

Audi quits power race - - Source: Autocar


Audi’s S and RS ranges will no longer offer more power than the equivalent models from AMG or BMW M-Power. Stephan Reil, the General Manager of Development at Quattro Gmbh, the company responsible for Audi’s RS models, claimed that, ‘continuing to increase the power outputs is not the way forward. With more power the car normally gets heavier and then you need more power again.’

Taking a sideswipe at AMG, which recently launched the 603bhp S65 AMG, Reil said ‘with a rear-wheel-drive car, all you succeed in doing is lighting up the yellow traction control sign. Our drivetrain allows us to transfer the power to the road.’

Reil said the Quattro Gmbh brand will develop cars that combined high power outputs with ‘outstanding driving dynamics and road handling.’ Audi is planning to adopt a new naming structure (SQ3 to SW8) for its sporting models.
Thanks for sharing, never seen that!

No mention there though of "how" their going to attain ‘outstanding driving dynamics and road handling.’!!!

The Audi website mentions their Ultra technology of weight saving, but, outside the Aluminium A8 / R8 (and Alu some wings on some models) which are not that light, I fail to see where their actually going with this.

Tankman

176 posts

228 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Pauly-b said:
I guess the use of the engine is to save funds with x amount being ordered for the RS5 - Still a little disappointed in this, not sure there's anything here to get me out of my B7 RS4 if I'm honest sadly...
Don't change it Pauly and don't be sad. B7 RS4 is still the best all round every day car Audi have ever made, in my opinion. With the added bonus of being a super fast point to point steed, mile munching autobahn cruiser and day to day family saloon. This is based upon also having driven S4 B8, RS5, TTS, S8, RS6 V8 and V10, but is only my opinion for what it's worth.

Tankman

176 posts

228 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Nors said:
Thanks for sharing, never seen that!

No mention there though of "how" THEY ARE going to attain ‘outstanding driving dynamics and road handling.’!!!

The Audi website mentions their Ultra technology of weight saving, but, outside the Aluminium A8 / R8 (and Alu some wings on some models) which are not that light, I fail to see where THEY ARE actually going with this.
There fixed it for you, you could always use the common contraction of "they're"

Pittsy98

26 posts

151 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
As people are stating, its really not just about power. I hate to be a kill joy, but I'm sure the new RS4 will be faster than the current C63. Bold statement I know, but I'm talking about real world performance.
I actually own a '09 C63 Saloon, its a fantastic car, but if you try and use full throttle on an even slightly greasy or bumpy road you will firmly have your wrist slapped by the TC! With the RS4's AWD, I would be left for dead trying to keep up with a face full of flashing amber TC lights!

flatline84

1,060 posts

156 months

Friday 17th February 2012
quotequote all
Depends what you define as real world performance. Rolling from 40-50 to 80-90 which is really what most do - the C63 will probably embarass the RS4