To build or to buy
Discussion
For years both me and my brother have wondered over these machines. Right now I am seriously considering starting a project, that will be a long one, but none the less the road to owning a dream car. The main question is, in the long run what is the cheapest option, don't confuse me for someone with masses of disposable income.
Is it cheaper to save the money you'd budget for a build per month and buy a pre owned car, or self build?
It would be my first ever build, but one I'm sure I'd never regret!
Is it cheaper to save the money you'd budget for a build per month and buy a pre owned car, or self build?
It would be my first ever build, but one I'm sure I'd never regret!
It is way cheaper to buy a complete s/h car - no question - end of.
However. You will be buying someone else's interpretation of what an Ultima should be - their hobby build.
Building an Ultima will give you a great deal of satisfaction and a full understanding of how the car works. That has a value to most on here.
A budget build will leave a bad taste in the mouth ( unless you are very resourceful ) and as has been said before on here, a nice spec will be around £75K. The same car will be available s/h with a few K miles for £50+K.
I was not happy with my s/h car and have spent the equivalent of a nice new build now for the car I wanted.
Paul
However. You will be buying someone else's interpretation of what an Ultima should be - their hobby build.
Building an Ultima will give you a great deal of satisfaction and a full understanding of how the car works. That has a value to most on here.
A budget build will leave a bad taste in the mouth ( unless you are very resourceful ) and as has been said before on here, a nice spec will be around £75K. The same car will be available s/h with a few K miles for £50+K.
I was not happy with my s/h car and have spent the equivalent of a nice new build now for the car I wanted.
Paul
Thanks guys. I'm finding it hard to find builder diaries that disclose how much they've paid for their build, which I imagine if you're trying to keep the woman in doors happy, is a good move haha.
It's a lot of car for the money, but I'm reluctant to take something on, even if it were to be planned over a few years. May be my eyes are too big for my wallet, better pop down to the post office and grab a euromillions ticket.
It's a lot of car for the money, but I'm reluctant to take something on, even if it were to be planned over a few years. May be my eyes are too big for my wallet, better pop down to the post office and grab a euromillions ticket.
Building my Sport was one of the the most satisfying things I have done. I too was not particularly flush and took more than a few years of building a bit and then saving, fitting in between house purchases and hostile girlfriends.
I am not sure I agree with a bad tasting budget build. A poorly built budget build on the other hand...
I built with Ford brakes, a carbed SBC and non-standard wheels and am more than happy with the result. If anything if give me more opportunity to research, tinker and upgrade at leisure
I am not sure I agree with a bad tasting budget build. A poorly built budget build on the other hand...
I built with Ford brakes, a carbed SBC and non-standard wheels and am more than happy with the result. If anything if give me more opportunity to research, tinker and upgrade at leisure
If it is the experience of building a car then the Ultima is second to none. The car's subassemblies are neatly organized and the hardware is very well made.
That being said the experience is expensive. If you are after a really fast car just buy one. If you don't like something about how it was built just change it.
That being said the experience is expensive. If you are after a really fast car just buy one. If you don't like something about how it was built just change it.
Interesting thread, as I've also been looking into this recently and like yourself undecided which route to take. I know the self build would bring me great pleasure, but finding real world pricing is proving difficult. The Ultima website gives you the break down of what seems to be a comprehensive build list (minus engine and painting of course), and whilst totalling up, doesn't come to £75k.
So what am I/ we missing?
Cheers
So what am I/ we missing?
Cheers
leem5 said:
Interesting thread, as I've also been looking into this recently and like yourself undecided which route to take. I know the self build would bring me great pleasure, but finding real world pricing is proving difficult. The Ultima website gives you the break down of what seems to be a comprehensive build list (minus engine and painting of course), and whilst totalling up, doesn't come to £75k.
So what am I/ we missing?
Cheers
A conservative guess would put the prices on the Ultima site about 2 years out of date. Also you have to take in to account how many of the "optional extras" are actually needed for the build.So what am I/ we missing?
Cheers
if you buy the engine from American Speed you get a proven product, but the import duties etc are steep. The figures being said of 75k is a bit steep. i presume people are wanting a bespoke interior for that too. there are lots of extras that are considered "standard equipment" too, like fire extinguishers, that will eat into a meagre budget very quickly.
as Storer says, it will always be cheaper to buy second hand as the first (and subsequent) owners will take the biggest hit.
Life Saab Itch said:
A conservative guess would put the prices on the Ultima site about 2 years out of date. Also you have to take in to account how many of the "optional extras" are actually needed for the build.
if you buy the engine from American Speed you get a proven product, but the import duties etc are steep. The figures being said of 75k is a bit steep. i presume people are wanting a bespoke interior for that too. there are lots of extras that are considered "standard equipment" too, like fire extinguishers, that will eat into a meagre budget very quickly.
as Storer says, it will always be cheaper to buy second hand as the first (and subsequent) owners will take the biggest hit.
Thanks for the reply and info regarding the pricing on the site, though the page is headed with 2012 pricing? It was indeed American Speed I was looking at regarding engines and am fully aware of import duties as I have had my fair share of the last few years modifying my M5 to it's cuurent state of tune!if you buy the engine from American Speed you get a proven product, but the import duties etc are steep. The figures being said of 75k is a bit steep. i presume people are wanting a bespoke interior for that too. there are lots of extras that are considered "standard equipment" too, like fire extinguishers, that will eat into a meagre budget very quickly.
as Storer says, it will always be cheaper to buy second hand as the first (and subsequent) owners will take the biggest hit.
The cost will be spread out between 2-3 mates as it will be a 3rd or 4th car for most of us so although not an issue, we would ideally like to know what the projected outlay would/ could be before starting. Regarding 'bespoking' the car, that will most probably no happen unless deemed necessary, as the car would probably be a rare weekend user and the very occassional track day.
Thanks again
Edited by leem5 on Thursday 8th November 08:31
Pilbeam posted a detailed breakdown of an LS7 build, all factory standard and that came to around £68k a few years ago.
Going non standard may add to the cost, going SBC will save.
Defo cheaper to buy built, Wayne/Petes is a bargain compared to the build cost, , as is Russ's which is probably one of the nicest finished ones out there.
Going non standard may add to the cost, going SBC will save.
Defo cheaper to buy built, Wayne/Petes is a bargain compared to the build cost, , as is Russ's which is probably one of the nicest finished ones out there.
The other thing to consider is how much equipment is required. As a bare minimum you will need a comprehensive tool kit with metric and imperial tools, plus electricians tools.
If you don't have an engine hoist, compressor with a decent number of air tools, and some more 'specialist' equipment like rivnut guns and things like hole saws (and at least 50 x 3.2mm drill bits for all the rivets!) you will need to invest. On the plus side, no real 'skills' such as fibreglassing or welding are required, just some care and attention. Unless of course you wish to go a long way off the 'beaten track!'.
Jonny
If you don't have an engine hoist, compressor with a decent number of air tools, and some more 'specialist' equipment like rivnut guns and things like hole saws (and at least 50 x 3.2mm drill bits for all the rivets!) you will need to invest. On the plus side, no real 'skills' such as fibreglassing or welding are required, just some care and attention. Unless of course you wish to go a long way off the 'beaten track!'.
Jonny
macgtech said:
The other thing to consider is how much equipment is required. As a bare minimum you will need a comprehensive tool kit with metric and imperial tools, plus electricians tools.
If you don't have an engine hoist, compressor with a decent number of air tools, and some more 'specialist' equipment like rivnut guns and things like hole saws (and at least 50 x 3.2mm drill bits for all the rivets!) you will need to invest. On the plus side, no real 'skills' such as fibreglassing or welding are required, just some care and attention. Unless of course you wish to go a long way off the 'beaten track!'.
Jonny
Tools are all here, as we are constantly repairing/ fixing the current track car as it has a hard life! As are the skills (all engineers of some kind).If you don't have an engine hoist, compressor with a decent number of air tools, and some more 'specialist' equipment like rivnut guns and things like hole saws (and at least 50 x 3.2mm drill bits for all the rivets!) you will need to invest. On the plus side, no real 'skills' such as fibreglassing or welding are required, just some care and attention. Unless of course you wish to go a long way off the 'beaten track!'.
Jonny
I'll have a search for the LS7 build.
Cheers
leem5 said:
Life Saab Itch said:
A conservative guess would put the prices on the Ultima site about 2 years out of date. Also you have to take in to account how many of the "optional extras" are actually needed for the build.
if you buy the engine from American Speed you get a proven product, but the import duties etc are steep. The figures being said of 75k is a bit steep. i presume people are wanting a bespoke interior for that too. there are lots of extras that are considered "standard equipment" too, like fire extinguishers, that will eat into a meagre budget very quickly.
as Storer says, it will always be cheaper to buy second hand as the first (and subsequent) owners will take the biggest hit.
Thanks for the reply and info regarding the pricing on the site, though the page is headed with 2012 pricing? It was indeed American Speed I was looking at regarding engines and am fully aware of import duties as I have had my fair share of the last few years modifying my M5 to it's cuurent state of tune!if you buy the engine from American Speed you get a proven product, but the import duties etc are steep. The figures being said of 75k is a bit steep. i presume people are wanting a bespoke interior for that too. there are lots of extras that are considered "standard equipment" too, like fire extinguishers, that will eat into a meagre budget very quickly.
as Storer says, it will always be cheaper to buy second hand as the first (and subsequent) owners will take the biggest hit.
The cost will be spread out between 2-3 mates as it will be a 3rd or 4th car for most of us so although not an issue, we would ideally like to know what the projected outlay would/ could be before starting. Regarding 'bespoking' the car, that will most probably no happen unless deemed necessary, as the car would probably be a rare weekend user and the very occassional track day.
Thanks again
Edited by leem5 on Thursday 8th November 08:31
deadscoob said:
Pilbeam posted a detailed breakdown of an LS7 build, all factory standard and that came to around £68k a few years ago.
Going non standard may add to the cost, going SBC will save.
Defo cheaper to buy built, Wayne/Petes is a bargain compared to the build cost, , as is Russ's which is probably one of the nicest finished ones out there.
Here it is....Going non standard may add to the cost, going SBC will save.
Defo cheaper to buy built, Wayne/Petes is a bargain compared to the build cost, , as is Russ's which is probably one of the nicest finished ones out there.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Regards
Interesting thread! Obviously we get this topic from time to time and there is no clear cut answer to the “how much will it cost me” question, however, here’s my view.
In my experience, from a friend asking the factory to build him an LS3 engined GTR, the £75K figure is more like a turn-key price. The self-builds that quote £75K and upwards are from folks who are going their own way and specing expensive options / bespoke parts, generally outsourcing work to 3rd parties – i.e. paying someone elses labour. If you’re going to go this route, then there really is no answer to the “how much” question, because the world’s your oyster!
If you want a real-world example of a self-build, I can probably shed some light for you…. My build is well known on here (look down a page or two for the Ultima Can Am Mini Build Diary thread). In a nutshell, it’s using from the factory: std chassis, double adj suspension, Alcon brakes, std body, LED lights, full heater / AC, double skin…. Basically everything off the Can Am option list for the car EXCEPT interior switch gear and engine bay parts….. From other (well documented!) sources, I’ve then gone for: a 480bhp LS3, 911 twin turbo ‘box, custom fuel system, custom cooling system, custom carbon intake, custom exhaust, custom leather & carpeted interior, ECU to dashboard integration, 2.2ghz Intel Win7 CarPC with satnav, full media capabilities, wifi, Bluetooth, DAB and touch screen, fully keyless ignition system, central locking, microwave Cat1 alarm, lots of carbon and gold bits, many std fixings replaced with ally / annodised / coloured fittings, blah, blah, blah!
I’m going to give exact figures on here, but suffice to say that by doing a lot of work myself, being selective about which vendors I work with on the outsourced parts, my build has come in MASSIVELY less than the figures being quoted on here by others..... and not much above the most expensive 7yr old LS3 in the classifieds currently.
Should you buy or build? Well, my view would be if you’re buying, you need to be very careful and selective. If the car you’re looking to buy is going to need work to either get it upto scratch (fix problems), or change to spec to get it to the stage you want it AND the cost of doing so takes you into the £50K bracket, I’d question whether that’s the right way to go. The caveat being, if you’re looking at some nutter spec motor, many more of the Queen’s pounds are going to be needed!
If you’re prepared to do much of the hard work yourself, not get hung up on deadlines, do the research and be selective about what you buy and from where, I see no reason why a nice LS3 car can’t be built for low £50Ks. Plenty on here will disagree with me, but I know the build cost of my car to the penny and if I strip out some of the completely frivolous bits I’ve added (like the touch screen car PC!!), the figures that are left are quite surprising.
Hope that helps. Mark
In my experience, from a friend asking the factory to build him an LS3 engined GTR, the £75K figure is more like a turn-key price. The self-builds that quote £75K and upwards are from folks who are going their own way and specing expensive options / bespoke parts, generally outsourcing work to 3rd parties – i.e. paying someone elses labour. If you’re going to go this route, then there really is no answer to the “how much” question, because the world’s your oyster!
If you want a real-world example of a self-build, I can probably shed some light for you…. My build is well known on here (look down a page or two for the Ultima Can Am Mini Build Diary thread). In a nutshell, it’s using from the factory: std chassis, double adj suspension, Alcon brakes, std body, LED lights, full heater / AC, double skin…. Basically everything off the Can Am option list for the car EXCEPT interior switch gear and engine bay parts….. From other (well documented!) sources, I’ve then gone for: a 480bhp LS3, 911 twin turbo ‘box, custom fuel system, custom cooling system, custom carbon intake, custom exhaust, custom leather & carpeted interior, ECU to dashboard integration, 2.2ghz Intel Win7 CarPC with satnav, full media capabilities, wifi, Bluetooth, DAB and touch screen, fully keyless ignition system, central locking, microwave Cat1 alarm, lots of carbon and gold bits, many std fixings replaced with ally / annodised / coloured fittings, blah, blah, blah!
I’m going to give exact figures on here, but suffice to say that by doing a lot of work myself, being selective about which vendors I work with on the outsourced parts, my build has come in MASSIVELY less than the figures being quoted on here by others..... and not much above the most expensive 7yr old LS3 in the classifieds currently.
Should you buy or build? Well, my view would be if you’re buying, you need to be very careful and selective. If the car you’re looking to buy is going to need work to either get it upto scratch (fix problems), or change to spec to get it to the stage you want it AND the cost of doing so takes you into the £50K bracket, I’d question whether that’s the right way to go. The caveat being, if you’re looking at some nutter spec motor, many more of the Queen’s pounds are going to be needed!
If you’re prepared to do much of the hard work yourself, not get hung up on deadlines, do the research and be selective about what you buy and from where, I see no reason why a nice LS3 car can’t be built for low £50Ks. Plenty on here will disagree with me, but I know the build cost of my car to the penny and if I strip out some of the completely frivolous bits I’ve added (like the touch screen car PC!!), the figures that are left are quite surprising.
Hope that helps. Mark
356Speedster said:
Interesting thread! Obviously we get this topic from time to time and there is no clear cut answer to the “how much will it cost me” question, however, here’s my view.
In my experience, from a friend asking the factory to build him an LS3 engined GTR, the £75K figure is more like a turn-key price. The self-builds that quote £75K and upwards are from folks who are going their own way and specing expensive options / bespoke parts, generally outsourcing work to 3rd parties – i.e. paying someone elses labour. If you’re going to go this route, then there really is no answer to the “how much” question, because the world’s your oyster!
If you want a real-world example of a self-build, I can probably shed some light for you…. My build is well known on here (look down a page or two for the Ultima Can Am Mini Build Diary thread). In a nutshell, it’s using from the factory: std chassis, double adj suspension, Alcon brakes, std body, LED lights, full heater / AC, double skin…. Basically everything off the Can Am option list for the car EXCEPT interior switch gear and engine bay parts….. From other (well documented!) sources, I’ve then gone for: a 480bhp LS3, 911 twin turbo ‘box, custom fuel system, custom cooling system, custom carbon intake, custom exhaust, custom leather & carpeted interior, ECU to dashboard integration, 2.2ghz Intel Win7 CarPC with satnav, full media capabilities, wifi, Bluetooth, DAB and touch screen, fully keyless ignition system, central locking, microwave Cat1 alarm, lots of carbon and gold bits, many std fixings replaced with ally / annodised / coloured fittings, blah, blah, blah!
I’m going to give exact figures on here, but suffice to say that by doing a lot of work myself, being selective about which vendors I work with on the outsourced parts, my build has come in MASSIVELY less than the figures being quoted on here by others..... and not much above the most expensive 7yr old LS3 in the classifieds currently.
Should you buy or build? Well, my view would be if you’re buying, you need to be very careful and selective. If the car you’re looking to buy is going to need work to either get it upto scratch (fix problems), or change to spec to get it to the stage you want it AND the cost of doing so takes you into the £50K bracket, I’d question whether that’s the right way to go. The caveat being, if you’re looking at some nutter spec motor, many more of the Queen’s pounds are going to be needed!
If you’re prepared to do much of the hard work yourself, not get hung up on deadlines, do the research and be selective about what you buy and from where, I see no reason why a nice LS3 car can’t be built for low £50Ks. Plenty on here will disagree with me, but I know the build cost of my car to the penny and if I strip out some of the completely frivolous bits I’ve added (like the touch screen car PC!!), the figures that are left are quite surprising.
Hope that helps. Mark
Great stuff, thanks for the indepth reply. And it was your build that got us interested, albit a GTR. As you have mentioned, we will be doing all the work ourself, so no labour costs involved. For us your carbon work is outstanding though we would not be going down that route and your interior is something else! The gearbox from the 911 turbo is something that we will be wanting as the lads want the gear lever in the tunnel.In my experience, from a friend asking the factory to build him an LS3 engined GTR, the £75K figure is more like a turn-key price. The self-builds that quote £75K and upwards are from folks who are going their own way and specing expensive options / bespoke parts, generally outsourcing work to 3rd parties – i.e. paying someone elses labour. If you’re going to go this route, then there really is no answer to the “how much” question, because the world’s your oyster!
If you want a real-world example of a self-build, I can probably shed some light for you…. My build is well known on here (look down a page or two for the Ultima Can Am Mini Build Diary thread). In a nutshell, it’s using from the factory: std chassis, double adj suspension, Alcon brakes, std body, LED lights, full heater / AC, double skin…. Basically everything off the Can Am option list for the car EXCEPT interior switch gear and engine bay parts….. From other (well documented!) sources, I’ve then gone for: a 480bhp LS3, 911 twin turbo ‘box, custom fuel system, custom cooling system, custom carbon intake, custom exhaust, custom leather & carpeted interior, ECU to dashboard integration, 2.2ghz Intel Win7 CarPC with satnav, full media capabilities, wifi, Bluetooth, DAB and touch screen, fully keyless ignition system, central locking, microwave Cat1 alarm, lots of carbon and gold bits, many std fixings replaced with ally / annodised / coloured fittings, blah, blah, blah!
I’m going to give exact figures on here, but suffice to say that by doing a lot of work myself, being selective about which vendors I work with on the outsourced parts, my build has come in MASSIVELY less than the figures being quoted on here by others..... and not much above the most expensive 7yr old LS3 in the classifieds currently.
Should you buy or build? Well, my view would be if you’re buying, you need to be very careful and selective. If the car you’re looking to buy is going to need work to either get it upto scratch (fix problems), or change to spec to get it to the stage you want it AND the cost of doing so takes you into the £50K bracket, I’d question whether that’s the right way to go. The caveat being, if you’re looking at some nutter spec motor, many more of the Queen’s pounds are going to be needed!
If you’re prepared to do much of the hard work yourself, not get hung up on deadlines, do the research and be selective about what you buy and from where, I see no reason why a nice LS3 car can’t be built for low £50Ks. Plenty on here will disagree with me, but I know the build cost of my car to the penny and if I strip out some of the completely frivolous bits I’ve added (like the touch screen car PC!!), the figures that are left are quite surprising.
Hope that helps. Mark
More reading then. Thanks again.
leem5 said:
Great stuff, thanks for the indepth reply. And it was your build that got us interested, albit a GTR. As you have mentioned, we will be doing all the work ourself, so no labour costs involved. For us your carbon work is outstanding though we would not be going down that route and your interior is something else! The gearbox from the 911 turbo is something that we will be wanting as the lads want the gear lever in the tunnel.
More reading then. Thanks again.
No worries, I'm glad to have helped! There's a lot to consider when costing an Ultima build and you're doing the right thing by researching, as I did 2yrs ago. There's a lot you can do to influence the cost both up and down, with the engine being a big part of this. Keep it sensible (c.500bhp) and the costs can be quite sensible, go for big numbers and prepare to exponentially empty your wallet, LOL!More reading then. Thanks again.
Feel free to PM for any more specific details.
Being a friend of 356Speedster I got hooked on the idea of building an Ultima, albeit a GTR. A fair bit behind Mark re build, as i struggle to find time , but basically similar spec with 997 turbo box etc, Dropme a pm if you want to understand potential costs in more detail.
From my limited time in the Ultima world I would agree if you can find the perfect car for you already built, then can be similar money to building one yourself. However if not to your spec or you want to upgrade parts then it can work out more expensive to buy 2nd hand and apply upgrades / changes.
If you've the time and inclination, would be worth building yourself to exactly the spec and quality of finish oh are happy with
Just my 2p worth.
Cheers Dave.
From my limited time in the Ultima world I would agree if you can find the perfect car for you already built, then can be similar money to building one yourself. However if not to your spec or you want to upgrade parts then it can work out more expensive to buy 2nd hand and apply upgrades / changes.
If you've the time and inclination, would be worth building yourself to exactly the spec and quality of finish oh are happy with
Just my 2p worth.
Cheers Dave.
Edited by Citrus7 on Thursday 8th November 17:51
One additional thing to consider is IVA/SVA (or what ever it's called).
If you want a mainly track orientated car there will probably be things that you will need to change after passing the test - so adding cost.
For track days you will probably want rose joint suspension, double adjustable dampers, uprated springs, dry sump ( essential ), AP brakes, racing pads, uprated clutch, front splitter and rear wing, track tyres (you only get one or two trackdays before they are no longer road legal) and probably second set of wheels and tyres for the road.
It is easy to see the build cost rising when you consider the cost of the above.
It is very easy to spend £75K (or more).
Paul
If you want a mainly track orientated car there will probably be things that you will need to change after passing the test - so adding cost.
For track days you will probably want rose joint suspension, double adjustable dampers, uprated springs, dry sump ( essential ), AP brakes, racing pads, uprated clutch, front splitter and rear wing, track tyres (you only get one or two trackdays before they are no longer road legal) and probably second set of wheels and tyres for the road.
It is easy to see the build cost rising when you consider the cost of the above.
It is very easy to spend £75K (or more).
Paul
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