RE: Holy smoke - Jag's 70s diesel flirtations

RE: Holy smoke - Jag's 70s diesel flirtations

Wednesday 14th November 2012

Holy smoke - Jag's 70s diesel flirtations

Legendary Jaguar test driver weighs into the PH diesel debate with a surprise revelation



Jaguar and petrol go together like gin and tonic. Everyone knows that. Even when the firm eventually offered a diesel for the X-Type back in 2003, the timing lagged well behind rivals.

So we were surprised to hear from Jaguar's famous former test driver Norman Dewis that he'd spent a long time back in 1975 testing a diesel. Very surprised.

The engine was supplied by Italian marine specialist VM Motori, who was looking to get into cars. Dewis tells us the engine was tested in an old Mark X, but would have been fitted to the highly acclaimed XJ6 (pictured top). "I went to the Nardo test track in Italy, we ran that Mark X and did 100,000 miles," he says.

Dewis recounts his roasting from Lyons
Dewis recounts his roasting from Lyons
So why on earth was a company known for its hard-hitting six-cylinder petrol engines looking at diesels? "At the time, the Suez crisis was happening and they were on about rationing petrol," Dewis tells us. "We thought, bloody hell, we couldn't sell one car with the consumption we've got. So we investigated diesel."

He even got so far as to sign the engine off for production.

Of course it never made it into a Jaguar and Dewis has a great explanation as to why not. Jaguar founder William Lyons, obviously a bit more hands off at this point, comes up to Dewis one evening in the Browns Lane experimental shop and asks what he'd been up to. "I've been in Italy doing the diesel engine," he replies.

Then comes a legendary response from Lyons: "Diesel?! Diesel?! What are you talking about? We don't want a diesel engine in Jaguar cars. Dirty, smelly, noisy things - forget it!" As Dewis tells us, "All that work, blown away. He nearly sacked me for it."

Italian diesel found a home in this SD1
Italian diesel found a home in this SD1
That VM Motori diesel did find its way into British Leyland cars, first the Rover SD1 as the 2400SD Turbo and then the Range Rover. But not Jaguar.

Not that Dewis was really a fan, not back then. "Years ago diesel engines were crap - smelly, rattly, clonking," he says. "But now, now, I wouldn't go back to petrol." It helps he's got a new XF diesel of course, a fine car in both 2.2-litre and 3.0-litre guises.

It was under Ford stewardship that Jaguar got its first diesel, and Dewis is no fan of what happened then. "When Ford had Jaguar, it was diabolical - Ford should have never taken it on." Tried to make it too big, too fast, was his main criticism.

Now though, the man responsible for some of Jaguar's finest sports cars, including the D-Type and E-Type (of which more later) is happy with the current set-up under Indian owners Tata, especially with its hands-off approach to Jaguar's development. These days that means combining likes of the new (all-petrol) F-Type two-seater with the diesel saloons and estates preferred by the all-important business market.

As Dewis says, "I wonder what Lyons would say today?"

Author
Discussion

crofty1984

Original Poster:

15,858 posts

204 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I had a VM motori engine in my old Cherokee. ste it was.

LewisR

678 posts

215 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
That "highly acclaimed XJ6 (pictured top)" is actually an XJ12. :-)

crossy67

1,570 posts

179 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
A local engine re-furbisher had a double six with a manual box. Strange we thought! Turns out he had a big truck diesel in it. Apparently it would do 90 at tick over and returned silly mpg. Maybe he was ahead of the times

anonymous-user

54 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Another diesel vs petrol argument thread. Great.

vdubbin

2,165 posts

197 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Wasn't there a rash of DIY diesel swaps during the 80s? ISTR Isuzu and Iveco lumps finding their way into a variety of Jags when petrol prices started climbing again?

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

168 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
LewisR said:
That "highly acclaimed XJ6 (pictured top)" is actually an XJ12. :-)
Noted!

Disclaimer: Picture for illustrative purposes only!

wink

Cheers,

Dan

anonymous-user

54 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
When Jag diesels are as good as the German ones, then they can start crowing on about it. Until then, get your heads down lads you've got some catching up to do..........

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

190 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
We had a 2.5TD VM unit in a RRC, bloody good it was too, way more powerful and a lot faster than the Tdi that succeeded it.

LuS1fer

41,135 posts

245 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I believe Alfas used these in Italy too.

What would Lyons say today? He'd probably still say no.
I can understand why he did it. A friend's father bought an almost new XJ12 in 1973 for peanuts as nobody wanted them.

coppice

8,607 posts

144 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Suez crisis in 1975 - no; it was almost 20 years earlier. Mr Dewis presumably means the '73 Middle Eastern war?

mat205125

17,790 posts

213 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
When Jag diesels are as good as the German ones, then they can start crowing on about it. Until then, get your heads down lads you've got some catching up to do..........
Really?

Have you tried the V6 JLR 2.7 diesel?

pistnbroke

39 posts

270 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
I have been running an S type with a 2.7 diesel and am now running a BMW X3 with a 3 litre diesel. Both engines are really good and I would not say even with about 6 years difference on age the BMW is significantly better. Love them both!
PS. the Jag is for sale

brams

29 posts

185 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Ford did wonders for Jaguar, without them Jaguar would not exist today. Ford also turned the Range Rover L322 into a good car, the early BMW cars are nowhere near as good as the JLR/Ford developed vehicle.

andymadmak

14,560 posts

270 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Didn't British Leyland also look at doing a diesel version of the Rover (Buick) V8? I seem to remember they had major difficulties with refinement so dropped it after a while. I was told (possibly wrongly) that it was so as to prevent THIS engine being used in a Jaguar(rather than the petrol V8 version) that the XJ40 engine bay was deliberately designed to be too narrow to accept a 90deg V8 - but would accept an in line 6 and a 60deg V12!

MX7

7,902 posts

174 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
"a diesel for the X-Type back in 2003"

It's amazing how fast things change given that the new XF estate is only available in diesel, just 9 years after the X-Type. I've just had a look on Autotrader, and Jags under 5 years old have a ratio of about 5:1 in favour of diesel.

I guess the 'Grace, Space & Pace' line might have been a bit awkward with a doggy 1970's lump in it.

DJRC

23,563 posts

236 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Norman Dewis...utter legend.

LewisR

678 posts

215 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Rover's (well, Triumph's) 2.3 & 2.6 straight-sixes were apparently designed to accomodate diesel variants (deviants?) too.

big_boz

1,684 posts

207 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
Uh Oh, PH posting an article insinuating Diesels are not all that bad, backed up by a quote from someone who should know....wait till the old firm get wind of this......

Letting the diesel bashing.....COMMENCE!

chrisemersons98

8 posts

141 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
St John Smythe said:
Another diesel vs petrol argument thread. Great.
Ditto, great! 18 posts though and nobody has mentioned TVRs which is a miracle as some people seem to find any excuse they can to get onto TVRs on here lol.

E38Ross

35,078 posts

212 months

Wednesday 14th November 2012
quotequote all
big_boz said:
Uh Oh, PH posting an article insinuating Diesels are not all that bad, backed up by a quote from someone who should know....wait till the old firm get wind of this......

Letting the diesel bashing.....COMMENCE!
well it did say they were looking at diesel because petrol was too expensive wink