RE: PH Blog: known unknowns

RE: PH Blog: known unknowns

Thursday 10th January 2013

PH Blog: known unknowns

Why car hacks have it wrong about ride comfort



Dreams of being a car designer meant my maths lessons were doodled away with drawings rather than working out long division or quadratic equations. More fool me. I've since grown to have a fascination with engineering and the 'grown-up' end of vehicle design and could spend hours being politely baffled by the likes of Lotus's Matt Becker or Mike Cross at Jaguar. What fascinates me in particular is how seat of the pants 'feel' can be turned into something that can be ordered from a component supplier, calibrated and bolted into a car's drivetrain.

British firms still rule for ride quality
British firms still rule for ride quality
Hanging out with Mike Cross recently was a perfect opportunity to address some of these nagging questions that loom like Donald Rumsfeld's known unknowns. Like, why is it cars with passive dampers seem to feel more natural than those with multi-setting adaptive ones? Talk to the marketing guys like BMW's Ian Robertson and they'll tell you these gizmos can give you a car that can both nail perfect 'ring laps and waft like a Roller when you're around town. Which is why cars like the M5 and M6 have a million different settings for dampers, throttle and even steering weight. And yet, in my experience, I've rarely encountered an adaptive system for steering or damping I'd choose over a well-judged passive set-up. So, am I just a Luddite?

In terms of suspension, perhaps not. "A passive damper probably always responds in a way that's consistent," says Mike Cross, "and I think probably what you need to do with an adaptive damper is make it feel as if the car is a little more controlled but try and do it in a seamless way so that the driver is not aware of the system working. If it's obviously doing something, in a way, we've failed."

'Stiff' can still be 'comfy', as our Megane proves
'Stiff' can still be 'comfy', as our Megane proves
And yet the bloke who's just spent a few hundred quid on the optional adjustable dampers still wants to feel something when he pushes that 'sport' button, right? A polite smile in response says a lot. And takes me back to a comment from Richard Attwood on a Porsche launch. As we headed out onto the track my reflex was to hit the Sport button on the PASM. "Don't bother," he growled. "It works better in the standard mode."

What of Chris Harris and his Jag XF's dampers taking time to 'warm up' on cold days? Cross says he'd be surprised if the ambient temperatures - even in the Welsh borders - would be sufficient for that to be a factor. Harris begs to differ. I'll leave them to have that chat anon.

And consider instead the simplistic notion often bandied about that a stiffer suspension set-up automatically equates to a 'sportier' one. That's our - as in motoring hacks - fault. "Comfort and refinement is really important to customers; it's sometimes less so with you guys," says Mike, going on to explain how a 'softer' car can often be the faster car on your typical bumpy British B-road.

Dan and Mike chat in a totally unposed fashion...
Dan and Mike chat in a totally unposed fashion...
As ever it comes down to tuning and calibration and making sure everything is working in harmony. Which is apparently how Renaultsport can get away with ostensibly fierce spring rates on cars like our PH Fleet Megane, the Cup chassis we've opted for running springs 38 per cent stiffer than even the regular 265's. Mike points out that the ride frequency won't have changed by as significant a figure and says we can tolerate significant and rapid vertical movement so long as pitch and roll are well contained. Which translates as that 'four-square' sensation of all corners of the car working together in unison that feels so satisfying. "They seem like very well sorted cars," he says, with particular praise for an Megane R26.R he had a go with. "They've clearly gone to a lot of trouble matching the damping to the spring rates."

The only thing this really proves is that perpetuating the myth that soft can't be sporty and stiff can't be comfy is over-simplifying a complicated engineering problem. Something that perhaps needs articulating more clearly.

Dan

 

Author
Discussion

trando

Original Poster:

722 posts

170 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
I tend to agree with CH re the XF dampers needing to 'warm up'. The ride on my XFR seems to improve once the car has properly warmed up. I had AMGs before the XFR and the AMG ride was much firmer than the XFR but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. The firmest ride I find is on the S Line Audis - too firm for me...

Crusoe

4,068 posts

230 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Pretty sure it is the cold tyres rather than cold suspension, winter mornings with big run flat tyres even more stiff side walls than normal and feel like blocks of stone before they warm up a bit.

RichTBiscuit

430 posts

150 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
If only the Bloke that sets up Audi's S-line suspension had the same philosophy.....

If I'm honest I have a mental image of Audi's marketing man beating the engineers with a large stick shouting 'NO Make it more uncomfortable ve need more sportiness you fools. I vant to feel EVERY motorway expansion joint'

mrtwisty

3,057 posts

164 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
More articles like this please PH.

SSBB

695 posts

155 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
trando said:
I tend to agree with CH re the XF dampers needing to 'warm up'. The ride on my XFR seems to improve once the car has properly warmed up. I had AMGs before the XFR and the AMG ride was much firmer than the XFR but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. The firmest ride I find is on the S Line Audis - too firm for me...
Same here on my XF. But as has been mentioned, wonder if it was the tyres.

Lefty

16,130 posts

201 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
RichTBiscuit said:
If only the Bloke that sets up Audi's S-line suspension had the same philosophy.....

If I'm honest I have a mental image of Audi's marketing man beating the engineers with a large stick shouting 'NO Make it more uncomfortable ve need more sportiness you fools. I vant to feel EVERY motorway expansion joint'
hehe

Not too far from the truth I bet.

havoc

29,920 posts

234 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Good article. Need more like this...need to get away from the god-awful ride quality of anything remotely quick nowadays*.

As an aside, what happened to those performance cars of the past that had "magic carpet" rides and still handled nicely. Thinking of e.g. the XK8, GTi-6, Elise S1... Nowadays the closest you get is Lotus, and even there the quicker stuff is often pretty stiff (111R, I'm looking at you).

T1berious

2,242 posts

154 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
I'd have to agree with run flat needing to warm up, anything below 5 degrees and they turn concrete like.

Interesting article, dumb question do the adjustable suspension systems also adjust ride height? or is it just rebound etc?

Cheers T1b

diz1990

9 posts

140 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
RichTBiscuit said:
If only the Bloke that sets up Audi's S-line suspension had the same philosophy.....

If I'm honest I have a mental image of Audi's marketing man beating the engineers with a large stick shouting 'NO Make it more uncomfortable ve need more sportiness you fools. I vant to feel EVERY motorway expansion joint'
+1

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
mrtwisty said:
More articles like this please PH.
+1

PunterCam

1,069 posts

194 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Sadly, when one buys a car (a japanese hot hatch) like I have, and it rides appallingly, not one aftermarket suspension manufacturer seems to produce (or at least mention) anything that improves the ride or wheel travel. It's all "want a more sporty feel?" "Want to cut out that roll?" There is no fking roll! It rides like a fking brick! I want it to ride like a new 911 - give me that ffs!

Early afternoon rants, must be a good day.

vrooom

3,763 posts

266 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
French car maker alway got it right, I alway liked thier ride quality, even down to basic 106. The German has alway set thier car to be hard riding level, because I think they test drive on autobahn which is very smoooth.

I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.

Prof Prolapse

16,160 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
vrooom said:
I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
That really would be cool. Cars like the GT86/BRZ would already have the owners who would spend a few hundred for the option.

It's been the case on bikes for a long time.

gofasterrosssco

1,235 posts

235 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
PunterCam said:
Sadly, when one buys a car (a japanese hot hatch) like I have, and it rides appallingly, not one aftermarket suspension manufacturer seems to produce (or at least mention) anything that improves the ride or wheel travel. It's all "want a more sporty feel?" "Want to cut out that roll?" There is no fking roll! It rides like a fking brick! I want it to ride like a new 911 - give me that ffs!

Early afternoon rants, must be a good day.
Japanese cars (specifically JDM imports) are known for their poorly-riding suspension, but this is primarily because they are set-up with smoother Japanese tarmac, or with a specific purpose in mind (e.g. for track use). There are specialists in this country that can modify your suspension to provide a ride and handling that is far more suited to UK roads.

I bought a suspension set-up (springs / adjustable dampers) for my VX220 that have well matched springs to dampers, and the damper valving changed to suit the car, and although they use significantly stiffer springs than the standard suspension, the car is better controlled, but is really no more harsh than the standard car on an average road. In fact, it actually 'glosses over' certain road surfaces where you would look ahead and wait for the clunk or vibrations.. So it can be done, its just quite expensive and needs to specific to the car.

HughG

3,537 posts

240 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
PunterCam said:
Sadly, when one buys a car (a japanese hot hatch) like I have, and it rides appallingly, not one aftermarket suspension manufacturer seems to produce (or at least mention) anything that improves the ride or wheel travel. It's all "want a more sporty feel?" "Want to cut out that roll?" There is no fking roll! It rides like a fking brick! I want it to ride like a new 911 - give me that ffs!

Early afternoon rants, must be a good day.
Have you had a look at Koni FSDs? I was sorely tempted by them on the Alfa, it's the first time I've had 18's, and combined with a 40 profile tyre it is very crashy.

CliveM

525 posts

184 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
mrtwisty said:
More articles like this please PH.
+1
+2

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Prof Prolapse said:
vrooom said:
I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
That really would be cool. Cars like the GT86/BRZ would already have the owners who would spend a few hundred for the option.

It's been the case on bikes for a long time.
Err no, even the manufacturers can't seem to get it right these days, what makes you think ordinary Joe will have a clue about what height\rebound setting will be the best setting for their requirements? Not a chance I'm afraid.

No what they need to do is

1) Forget all these fancy pants 100 way adjustable systems which quite often break in a very expensive manner anyway and get back to a decent passive system, set up by a good engineer whose job it is to do this properly.

2) Make it work in a wide range of conditions, not just to be half a second quicker round a racetrack than it's rivals\competitors. In fact I'd prefer it if most cars never went anywhere near the ring\racetrack unless it's a dedicated track car.

3) Ignore any and all pointers\suggestions from the marketing department while you are at it.

4) Alternatively just get Lotus in to do it for you.

Oh and I agree with Mike Cross, motoring journo's are massively to blame for the current obsession with track times and too stiffly sprung suspension. Reading about how great it was that they were able to fling the latest M-Sport\AMG\S line round a track is obviously great fun but a journo's job should be about more than that. They are often in the enviable position (for most petrolheads anyway) of having the chance to drive many cars and indeed influence manufacturers on what is and isn't considered good\bad\important on a car so I wish they would use that power in a more responsible way sometimes.

Anyway hat's off to Mr Trent for championing the cause to bring back decent ride quality. Perhaps if we bang this drum long and loud enough, SOMEONE in the motoring industry will actually listen.

Recarobob

10 posts

178 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
vrooom said:
French car maker alway got it right, I alway liked thier ride quality, even down to basic 106. The German has alway set thier car to be hard riding level, because I think they test drive on autobahn which is very smoooth.

I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
It may be pure fantasy but I've always thought my Avantime rides better on French roads and motorways than on British ones, and I put that down to the fact that French cars are designed for French roads.

SprintSpeciale

432 posts

144 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
I think my current daily driver is a case in point (the point being that good handling and a good ride are not mutually exclusive).

Last year I swapped a Granturismo S for the facelift Granturismo Sport. There are various (mainly modest) changes ("improvements" I believe the manufacturer likes to call them). The most significant change in terms of the car as a driving proposition is to the suspension. The old car tended to float a bit, which is clearly not great from a handling perspective, but that wasn't necessarily equating to a good ride either. The new car is definitely stiffer, and the handling has been improved markedly - yet, if anything, the ride quality has improved too.

The cynics out there will say that this suggests the original car's suspension wasn't very good - and they would have a point. But that doesn't detract from the fact that this time around the engineers have managed to improve both ride and handling. I can see that there must be a point where there has to be some trade off between the two, but I suspect that occurs at a point outside the realistic requirements of 99.9% of us (i.e. there is a lot of bullst out there about how a car handles that has more to do with image than the requirements or talents of the driver..)

[p.s. I also concede that there are a fair number of PHers (Harris included) who really do recognise, and benefit from, a car that handles well at the edge of the performance envelope - but I imagine that there are many more who think they are in that category than who actually are in it]

[p.p.s. I don't consider myself as in the category!]



W124

1,496 posts

137 months

Thursday 10th January 2013
quotequote all
Absolutely right. My current car, for reasons only known to the lady who originally specced it, has 'sports' suspension. The ride is st quite frankly and the handling benefits far from evident in even brisk everyday use. Indeed it's the kid of car you'd not drive fast unless you had to. The only real advantage is that it moves about less under braking. The previous car was way softer but the chassis underneath very good indeed. It was much more pleasant to drive fast - yes it rolled but if you set it up right just before each corner that never mattered. And it was never knocked off line. The Megane RS is a remarkable car in this respect in that it offers some compliance yet is utterly resolute in the bends and under brakes. I must confess I was never that impressed with the XF - the XJ is a joy to drive fast though.