RE: Ringside Seat: winter tyred
Friday 8th February 2013
As a Brit living abroad, I've learned to adapt to new rules. Even when I don't necessarily agree with them. Some of the regulations here in Germany are enough to drive a man crazy. I can't swap an air intake or exhaust without the right sheet of paper or a costly inspection. If I want to run a different tyre size, it's the same problem. And don't get me started on fully comprehensive insurance. It makes the UK's insurance market look like a charity.
Anyone got the keys to the track?But there's one cost-inducing bit of extra motoring legislation that I think is a really good idea. I am, of course, referring to the winter tyre rule. It's a relatively newly enforced law for Germany, but it's a sensible one. Whereas some countries enforce winter tyres on certain roads or during specific dates, Germany's rules are simples. If you're driving in wintery conditions, you need to be using suitable tyres. They can be all-seasons, or specific snow tyres. They just need to carry the M+S (mud and snow) designation on the sidewall.
Even a RWD track car works correctly shodSounds like a harsh regime, but boy, does it make a difference. Snow, frost and low temperatures simply don't stop the commute. Sure there's always some drama somewhere, but the scenes of snow chaos are nowhere near as common as they are in the UK. And we must get double or treble the snowfall. Anecdotally, snowfall has never stopped me or any of my colleagues getting to work in the six years I've been living here. Schools are always open, even the bin lorries and buses are running through the white stuff. And we do get a lot of it here at the Nurburgring.
That's the 'working from home' excuse out thenThe downsides? They're not that bad, to be honest. It's normal here to have a second set of wheels. The nice alloys for summer, the cheapy small ones or even steelies for winter. If you're buying your car new or second-hand you always factor in whether the deal includes a full set of winter tyres or not. Local garages will store your second set of wheels for a few quid, and you often find deals for a set of wheels, winter tyres and storage included. And if you think about it, you're not burning double the amount of rubber, you're just using two sets of tyres for longer instead of one set for half the time.
Ringside Seat: winter tyred
Life in a land where snow doesn't actually equal chaos
Anyone got the keys to the track?
Get caught without them in a snow flurry and it's now a €40 fine. That doubles if you're blocking the road or impeding traffic in any way. And if you're in an accident, don't expect the insurance company to cough for any of your damages. That precedent was set decades ago I'm told.
Even a RWD track car works correctly shod
"So what?" I hear you cry. On Top Gear last Sunday the presenters said the same thing, effectively. they took the easy road of declaring winter tyres useful for only as long as Britain had snow. About two minutes a year I think they said.
Well, that's just not true. Stopping distances in the wet and cold are significantly improved on winter tyres at temperatures below seven degrees. We're talking about whole car lengths at the lower speed limits and tens of metres at higher speeds.
That's the 'working from home' excuse out then
From a driving point of view winter tyres are often a bit crappy and wobbly when you push on in warm and dry conditions. The tread blocks move and feedback is lost. But most of winter it's either wet or cold anyway. And I'd rather lose a bit of feel than have to stay at home when my commute has snow-covered hairpin bends on it!
Discussion
I sort of agree. But they shouldn't be legislated for over here.
For those in the southern half of the country, winter tyres are essential for maybe 2 weeks of the year, beneficial for another 4-6 (when properly cold / icy), and no worse than summers for another 6-8.
Which is to say, enough time to seriously consider them, but less than almost all of Germany.
I've been running them for 3 years and am glad I've got them, but then I've got space in the garage and the inclination to change them myself, so cost isn't that great, overall. For someone in a city, though, where the roads hardly ever properly snow-over, they're almost unnecessary. For someone in Scotland they're almost certainly a huge benefit.
For those in the southern half of the country, winter tyres are essential for maybe 2 weeks of the year, beneficial for another 4-6 (when properly cold / icy), and no worse than summers for another 6-8.
Which is to say, enough time to seriously consider them, but less than almost all of Germany.
I've been running them for 3 years and am glad I've got them, but then I've got space in the garage and the inclination to change them myself, so cost isn't that great, overall. For someone in a city, though, where the roads hardly ever properly snow-over, they're almost unnecessary. For someone in Scotland they're almost certainly a huge benefit.
I've been in Sweden this week for work, and the way snow is such a complete non-event for these countries is eye opening for your average Brit. Not only did my flights run bang on time, but the taxis got me about, the trains worked, and despite several inches of snow in Stockholm on Wednesday, the airport functioned perfectly well. As of course it always does in these situations.
Apart from the major roads which were clear, there was a good layer of compacted snow on the smaller roads, but by using winter tyres, and driving to the conditions, it doesn't bother the locals at all.
My Swedish colleagues were actually surprised at my surprise, apart from those who had been to the UK in winter who were more understanding
Apart from the major roads which were clear, there was a good layer of compacted snow on the smaller roads, but by using winter tyres, and driving to the conditions, it doesn't bother the locals at all.
My Swedish colleagues were actually surprised at my surprise, apart from those who had been to the UK in winter who were more understanding
Another winter where I've managed just fine on my summer tyre equipped S2000. Commuted everyday from Winchester to Basingstoke without any issues. The only disruption to my routine was that on the worst day of snow I chose to stick to the main trunk roads instead of the country lanes.
Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
A sensible view on winter tyres from the author and especially the German authorities which could, I think, work well in the UK. Can’t ever see it happening though!
I’m sure there will be multiple responses from the anti-winter tyre brigade, many of whom have never used them and will no doubt be stuffed if we get a bit more snow over the next few days.
I’m sure there will be multiple responses from the anti-winter tyre brigade, many of whom have never used them and will no doubt be stuffed if we get a bit more snow over the next few days.
swanny71 said:
A sensible view on winter tyres from the author and especially the German authorities which could, I think, work well in the UK. Can’t ever see it happening though!
I’m sure there will be multiple responses from the anti-winter tyre brigade, many of whom have never used them and will no doubt be stuffed if we get a bit more snow over the next few days.
I've been totally convinced since '03 and have owned a set since '08. Will never have a car now without a set.I’m sure there will be multiple responses from the anti-winter tyre brigade, many of whom have never used them and will no doubt be stuffed if we get a bit more snow over the next few days.
It'd be interesting to know the performance advantage, if any, in rain for any temperature as having "rain tyres" is a far more convincing argument in the UK than trying to sell someone "snow tyres". My opinion is that they're far better on wet raods than summer tyres, even in the summer.
It's the idiots who cannot fathom why they cannot move and block roads / crash in the snow that fuel the argument to legislate for them. You have to assume people are stupid, of which many are. If people drove with a little more common sense and to the conditions, our roads were be much safer and free flowing (that applies to any conditions).
Interestingly I had an S2000 and it was pretty dire in the snow on the half worn RE050's. Our civic is on winters and they are great. We do little miles really and pay £60 a year to have them swapped over from summers, for me, the peace of mind, knowing the family and I are as safe as I can make them is well worth the money.
Interestingly I had an S2000 and it was pretty dire in the snow on the half worn RE050's. Our civic is on winters and they are great. We do little miles really and pay £60 a year to have them swapped over from summers, for me, the peace of mind, knowing the family and I are as safe as I can make them is well worth the money.
Although there have been plenty of information about Winter Tyres (as it is Winter) it's always good to get another perspective on it - thank you.
I work and drive in Switzerland and have the exact same view of life just getting on as normal when snow falls. Yes they are better equipped as it snows more regularly and they can justify the capex - but the biggest difference on the roads is that between November and April everyone drives on M+S tyres.
Even living in the deep south east I have two cars on winter tyres and IMO they are essential between Dec-Mar. They allow me to drive wherever I want to go with a lack of fuss on cold, wet and in particular icy and snowy conditions (as we have just had this morning).
If you are keeping your car for more than two winters then the cost difference is negligible - even when buying extra rims - due to the fact you are using two tyres designed for the conditions and wear rates are the same if not lower. Factor in the lower risk to your no claims bonus and whislt it is worth it alone on safety grounds it also stacks up very well financially.
Just get some good ones - just as for Summer tyres it pays to do your homework.
I work and drive in Switzerland and have the exact same view of life just getting on as normal when snow falls. Yes they are better equipped as it snows more regularly and they can justify the capex - but the biggest difference on the roads is that between November and April everyone drives on M+S tyres.
Even living in the deep south east I have two cars on winter tyres and IMO they are essential between Dec-Mar. They allow me to drive wherever I want to go with a lack of fuss on cold, wet and in particular icy and snowy conditions (as we have just had this morning).
If you are keeping your car for more than two winters then the cost difference is negligible - even when buying extra rims - due to the fact you are using two tyres designed for the conditions and wear rates are the same if not lower. Factor in the lower risk to your no claims bonus and whislt it is worth it alone on safety grounds it also stacks up very well financially.
Just get some good ones - just as for Summer tyres it pays to do your homework.
I crashed my beloved E39 M5 on a snowy French autoroute many years ago and was lucky to limp away with just my pride injured. Ever since then I've learned the benefits of having a proper set of winter tyres. On a powerful RWD car they really are a no-brainer. They save lives and keep things moving when summer tyres just can't cope. Apart from the initial cost of purchase, there really are no downsides. Can't recommend them highly enough!
I'd support bringing in similar legislation BUT only the parts where you receive a fine for causing an actual problem. Hit something that winter tyres would have stopped you in time for or cause a blockage in the road and face the consequences. I wouldn't support them being compulsory. Personally I use the most appropriate tyres for the conditions. Be that a dry summer track day in my Westfield (Yoko A048's) or through the wintery quarter in my daily driver BMW (Dunlop Winters). Other people are happy to drive all year on the cheapest Chinese rubber Kwik-Fit will sell them.
I have set of winter tyres i think they should be encouraged.
However, i am not so sure the situation on Britains roads would dramatically improve because of winter tyres alone, the simple fact of the matter (to me) is that the general populous have literally no idea how to drive in the snow, most likely pointed out by the fact it is a relatively rare event, more so in some parts than others.
I dread to think what would happen if you told a brit they offered better traction and stopping distance in the snow and wet, lets be fair, they can barely drive in summer conditions I am positively shocked at some standards of driving on the roads these days, daily i dare add. They seem more interested in the theory driving test where knowing a road sign is more important than car control, stopping distances or lane discipline.
However, i am not so sure the situation on Britains roads would dramatically improve because of winter tyres alone, the simple fact of the matter (to me) is that the general populous have literally no idea how to drive in the snow, most likely pointed out by the fact it is a relatively rare event, more so in some parts than others.
I dread to think what would happen if you told a brit they offered better traction and stopping distance in the snow and wet, lets be fair, they can barely drive in summer conditions
I am positively shocked at some standards of driving on the roads these days, daily i dare add. They seem more interested in the theory driving test where knowing a road sign is more important than car control, stopping distances or lane discipline.
Being a Southerner average temps dont drop much below 8 degrees in depths of winter for me, on the one day so far this year snow tyres would have been of use everywhere was closed , the schools, the offices and the roads were blocked by those people who dont understand they need to adapt their driving in winter.
If you cant go anywhere it doesnt matter what tyres you have on the car
If you cant go anywhere it doesnt matter what tyres you have on the car
Having lived in Canada for many years, I have used them on every car.
They do work.
They are optimized for temps of less than -7c,and have a chemical composition to wear and flex appropriately for cold,not just snow. Will wear quickly if you keep them on through warm conditions. All Seasons are a compromise and fine for those areas that get rare light snowfalls.
The biggest mistake here is where people get a 4x4 and assume that this will magically create grip in snow,ignoring its greater weight.I keep a cheaper set of rims for my Cayenne, and as is common here,keep the unused rims stored at the tire dealer.
Naturally,no aid will cure poor driving and running too fast for the conditions. At the beginning of every winter here, the first big storm (which is late this year but happening right now),still results in many accidents.
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