RE: Fast vs fun - grip or slip

RE: Fast vs fun - grip or slip

Thursday 9th May 2013

Fast vs fun - grip or slip

Is the fashion for big wheels and quest for more grip actually spoiling the fun? PH investigates...



Fast or fun? It's a divisive question, one we explored recently in a battle between our scalpel sharp Megane 265 Cup and Subaru's skiddy little BRZ coupe. At the final whistle, fun took the win, albeit on points, but, judging by your comments, the result continues to split opinion.

To Spa to put our flashy Dunlops to the test
To Spa to put our flashy Dunlops to the test
Ding, ding, round two, and while we will be using the Megane again for this next contest, at least this time it will have much better odds of winning. Why? Because this time we will be focusing our discussion on wheels and tyres. Specifically, whether shelling out on sticky rubber for track use is worth it in terms of extra smiles per mile over a regular road tyre? Can you actually feel the extra grip, and does raising the limit make for a seat of the pants ride?

Provoking this debate was the arrival in the office of a set of new track-biased Dunlops; the Sport Maxx Race. It's intended to be a fit and forget option for track dayers that don't want to faff around with a second set of wheels. Indeed Dunlop bills them as "specially designed to help some of the world's fastest cars perform on some of the world's most challenging race tracks, while ensuring they are able to deliver their drivers back home without the need to change tyres." Which sounds like a challenge to us.

An extra inch
Standard issue wheels on the Megane are 18-inch Tibor rims shod with Michelin Pilot Sport 2 tyres. The optional Speedline Steev gains an inch in diameter, along with a dubious red stripe and a not insignificant £1,000 price tag. Normally shod with Bridgestone, Renault loaned us a set of bare rims onto which we fitted the Dunlops.

19-inch Speedlines shod with Sport Maxx Races
19-inch Speedlines shod with Sport Maxx Races
Now all we needed was a track day. Step forward Renaultsport's annual visit to Spa Francorchamps. This would give us the chance to drive out on the 18s via a mix of B-roads and continental motorway, spank it round the track all morning, then swap wheels and reverse the process. So with the 19s loaded into the boot, fresh tyres leeching a particularly noxious odour, we set off for Spa.

What makes a good track day tyre? Grip, obviously, ranks pretty high on the list of priorities. Although when you're not looking to go purple on every lap, adhesive properties have to be judged alongside durability, predictability, and wear and tear on road car components not necessarily designed to take high loads of mechanical grip. Last but not least, there's the fickle finger of fun to poke into the equation.

Back in the groove
It had been a year since we drove at Spa, but getting into the groove around its sweeping turns and emotive undulations was easy on the Michelin shod 18s. After reducing the pressures at the end of the first session, we found a soft and malleable edge to their grip that, if drawn with a pencil, would be more 4B than 4H.

On the regular 18s for the road trip out
On the regular 18s for the road trip out
Yet when we began to push, those blurry boundaries started to frustrate. There was little to lean on turning in to the faster corners, and on the slower ones it was equally easy to push the Michelins into understeer. It was at this point that the ability of both chassis and driver came into the equation, and providing there's talent in either department the challenge - and therefore fun - comes from working around the available grip. Luckily the Megane's dynamics more than made up for our deficiencies, so by exploiting trail braking, throttle lifts and the brilliant limited-slip diff up front, there was still a stack of fun to be had exploring the peripheries of adhesion.

Onto options
Three sessions later and the Renaultsport Monitor told us we'd slowly chipped away at our lap times, peaking at a 3min5sec. That was the primes out of the way, now it was time to put on the options.

Running a second set of wheels is very popular among track addicts, and for good reason. It's an easy way to transform the handling of your car and it takes away the risk of a long drive home on bald tyres. A set of semi-slicks, such as Toyo's 888, fitted to a lightweight rim can also significantly reduce unsprung weight and inertia. Not here though; the difference between the Michelin shod 18s and Dunlop equipped 19s was an imperceptible half kilo.

Above and beyond service from PR man
Above and beyond service from PR man
Our fumbling fingers had the wheels changed in about half an hour, with a little help from Renault PR man Jeremy. It wasn't really that much of a hassle either, although packing and storing a jack, tools and wheels won't be everyone's cup of tea.

Scrubbing in
First lap on the Dunlops was a very gentle affair, after all, we had no idea what to expect piling into Eau Rouge for the first time on box fresh rubber. Towards the end of the lap, however, both heat and confidence was growing in equal measure. It was immediately obvious they had potential, but we put a leash on our efforts knowing that we'd have to reduce the pressures at the end of the first session.

By the second lap of the next session we were revelling in the increased grip. There was a noticeable improvement in turn-in performance particularly on faster corners such as Pouhon and Blanchimont. Braking traction was considerably enhanced and the extra grip was showing up in the lap times too; over a second quicker from the word go. But more importantly we were having a blast too; our inputs rewarded with immediate and proportional changes in direction. F1 drivers always talk about the importance of good balance in a car. Well, the Megane certainly felt more pointy and responsive with its new Dunlop sneakers on.

More grip and pace on the 19s ... for a bit
More grip and pace on the 19s ... for a bit
Burning rubber
Somewhere along the line we had to find a drawback, and in the case of the Sport Maxx Race it was undoubtedly durability; by the end of the afternoon they were looking decidedly secondhand. Two hot laps around Spa was enough to cook them, by which point the rubber would feel like jelly.

Short-lived as it was, this extra speed was addictive. Having tasted high-grip performance the idea of sacrificing a proportion of it for a degree of mobility, particularly on track days where any kind of intentional drifting is increasingly frowned upon. No one likes driving around understeer, and while the standard Michelins are no slouch in the grip department on-road, the stickier Dunlops let us push that much harder on track.

All of which leaves us in no doubt of the verdict. It's a win for fast, because on track speed most definitely equals fun. So much so that we wouldn't hesitate to add a set of track wheels to our arsenal even if we were doing only a couple of track days a year. But for ultimate gains and with the additional faff accepted we'd invest our money in a lightweight rim and a more specialist track tyre.

Track photography: c/o Peter Helene





   

 

Author
Discussion

Technomatt

Original Poster:

1,085 posts

133 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
I don’t think there are any surprises there.

Pay the money for the track orientated rubber for increased grip at the expense of higher wear rates with an associated knock on effect of a drop in all round performance and longevity for general 24/7 on road use.

It’s just choosing the right tools for the job if that second or two a lap is important.

lockup

383 posts

242 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
I don't suppose you tried sticking 40psi in the rear tyres to improve the balance on the Michelins. After all, if you're cooking the Dunlops in two laps, you lose the ability to pound round trying to get the ultimate lap.

gambisk

184 posts

165 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
But how did the 19s feel on the drive back? Of course more track oriented rubber is going to be better on the track otherwise why would the tyre manufactures not just slap the bogo spec tyres on all the racers. Can you live with them every day or even on the drive to and from the track, none of which you discussed. I cant imagine the 19's with their non existent sidewall being the most comfortable on Britannia's fine roads

HustleRussell

24,700 posts

160 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
Give me tyres with a profile of at least 60 over these low profile efforts any day. Progressiveness is massively important to me.

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

168 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
gambisk said:
But how did the 19s feel on the drive back? Of course more track oriented rubber is going to be better on the track otherwise why would the tyre manufactures not just slap the bogo spec tyres on all the racers. Can you live with them every day or even on the drive to and from the track, none of which you discussed. I cant imagine the 19's with their non existent sidewall being the most comfortable on Britannia's fine roads
Patience! We'll be looking at the 18s versus 19s debate and how that translates to the everyday road use in more detail in the next PH fleet update on the Megane. The 19s have stayed on for the meantime and we'll report back in due course.

Cheers,

Dan

Flewis

13 posts

166 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
What about grippy on the front and slippy on the rear?

mackie1

8,153 posts

233 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
I doubt there'd be much difference in absolute grip if you stuck the same width, same model tyres on an inch bigger wheel.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

188 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
Track tyres is one thing but largely irrellevant to 95% of the people who buy hot hatches I suspect.


stew-S160

8,006 posts

238 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
Been there, done that, agree with the results.

Still, I'd take RWD over FWD and do the test again with a GT86/BRZ.

_Neal_

2,664 posts

219 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
Technomatt said:
I don’t think there are any surprises there.

Pay the money for the track orientated rubber for increased grip at the expense of higher wear rates with an associated knock on effect of a drop in all round performance and longevity for general 24/7 on road use.
Track time, for me at least, is about longevity on track - more laps = more fun.

Once the tyres overheat you might as well come in and let them cool. As such, in my view, track-orientated tyres should overheat/go off slower, providing grip for longer when hot, than road tyres. As such I was surprised that the track-orientated rubber had such a short "operating window" between getting up to temperature and turning to jelly.

Hoygo

725 posts

161 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
For track use it's important and becomes addictive soon,a good gripy tire on the Megane unleashes its full potential ,it's not irrelevant on a car that beats cars 2x the price on track and it's the main choice for great handling which means RWD is not the only choice if you want a great handling car especially on track when it matters more.

mat777

10,393 posts

160 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
I can guarantee that something like a 106gti or Aygo on skinny little high profile 155 tyres will be far more fun, far more progressive, far easier to reach or exceed the limits of at sensible/legal speeds, far quieter in terms of tyre noise, more economical, and far far more comfy, than any daft Clio/Swift/Corsa running on 225-ish elastic bands

VeeFource

1,076 posts

177 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
stew-S160 said:
Been there, done that, agree with the results.

Still, I'd take RWD over FWD and do the test again with a GT86/BRZ.
This all over!!!!!

Massive +1

jamieduff1981

8,025 posts

140 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Give me tyres with a profile of at least 60 over these low profile efforts any day. Progressiveness is massively important to me.
So K11 Nissan Micra on it's 155/70R13s is fun? It's certainly progressive. Unfortunately it starts progressing at a little over running pace on anything resembling a change in direction.

The particular tyre itself plays a large part in the progressiveness. I find modern 40 profiles plenty progressive enough for my cars.

stephengreen

8 posts

158 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
_Neal_ said:
Track time, for me at least, is about longevity on track - more laps = more fun.

Once the tyres overheat you might as well come in and let them cool. As such, in my view, track-orientated tyres should overheat/go off slower, providing grip for longer when hot, than road tyres. As such I was surprised that the track-orientated rubber had such a short "operating window" between getting up to temperature and turning to jelly.
So was I. Suspect wrong pressures to blame. Best way of determining a rule of thumb pressure on any given trackday is to take temperature reading across tyre and adjust pressure accordingly. The temperature probe ones you stick in tyre like race teams use are the best I suppose but I make do with a digital temperature gun.

V8RX7

26,862 posts

263 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
On a track 90% would opt for fast

On a FWD 90% would opt for fast
(not much fun losing grip in a FWD)

On a RWD, on the road which is where I spend 99.9% of my time, I'd opt for fun.

HustleRussell

24,700 posts

160 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
jamieduff1981 said:
HustleRussell said:
Give me tyres with a profile of at least 60 over these low profile efforts any day. Progressiveness is massively important to me.
So K11 Nissan Micra on it's 155/70R13s is fun? It's certainly progressive. Unfortunately it starts progressing at a little over running pace on anything resembling a change in direction.

The particular tyre itself plays a large part in the progressiveness. I find modern 40 profiles plenty progressive enough for my cars.
I would probably find a K11 Micra fun, yes!

Obviously depends on the type of car and tyre etc but for me, wider, lower profile tyres suck out all the fun. I like to feel the slip adding up through the seat of my pants.

PhillipM

6,520 posts

189 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
V8RX7 said:
On a track 90% would opt for fast

On a FWD 90% would opt for fast
(not much fun losing grip in a FWD)

On a RWD, on the road which is where I spend 99.9% of my time, I'd opt for fun.
This, all fast does on the road is give you less places to enjoy the car, and more chance of something serious if you cock up...

jon-

16,509 posts

216 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
I did this in an MR2, Toyo T1R vs V70a, and for me, the road tyres won as I enjoyed the car moving around. (full write up
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Road-VS-Track... )

Having been part of a recent group test, the Dunlop Sport Maxx Races are some of the best track tyres on the market at the moment, but then the Pilot Sport 2s are some of the best road tyres, so it's interesting to read you prefered the speed.


littleredrooster

5,537 posts

196 months

Thursday 9th May 2013
quotequote all
Some of the most fun I've had on four wheels was in a Vauxhall Viva HC 1.2 with about 38bhp and 145x13 cross-ply tyres in the early '70s.

The trick was never to lift off until the crash was inevitable, and then it was only a brief lift to get the thing pointing back in approximately the right direction. It may also have sufficed to drop the revs enough to stop the valves from bouncing.

On a regular 5 mile trip back from a friend's place, I could drive it so that the thing was right on the edge of adhesion for all but about 400 yards of straight dual-carriageway. Never exceeded 62mph, never dropped below 58mph! Washing the passenger's side window regularly was a must in order to see where we were going...

No grip, no power, just immense fun! How the fk didn't I kill any kittens?