RE: Flyin' Miata Twincharged MX-5 in development

RE: Flyin' Miata Twincharged MX-5 in development

Wednesday 24th January

Flyin' Miata Twincharged MX-5 in development

What to do when a turbo'd MX-5 isn't enough? Add a supercharger too!



Flyin' Miata is well known in MX-5 circles, indeed in fast car circles, for its work on Mazda's eponymous roadster. You can't drop Chevy crate V8s in 1,000kg convertibles and not expect people to notice!

Now the Colorado-based tuners are working on something new (and very exciting) for the MX-5: a twincharged car. Yep, like a Lancia Delta Integrale S4 - and the Mk5 Golf GT... but let's focus on the Lancia. So that means a supercharger and a turbocharger, promising all manner of mad forced induction gains. Remember a BBR turbo is already taking an MX-5 to comfortably over 200hp, with a commensurate increase in torque; Road & Track is saying that the turbo alone could be capable of 350hp, so with a supercharger added on...


Flyin' Miata is currently developing the twincharged set up, using its existing turbocharged car as a base. Images of the build have been posted on Instagram and the Miata.net forum, Keith Tanner from Flyin' Miata adding, "You know it had to happen." Good man, Keith. Amazingly, despite understandably being a busy engine bay, everything for the twincharged build does fit seemingly without modification.

It hasn't yet been confirmed whether Flyin' Miata will offer the package as one twincharged unit with all the associated ancillaries. However, for intrepid tuners the turbo and the supercharger are both available from its website now. Would make a good Readers' Cars thread...

Given this is apparently the world's first twincharged Mk4 MX-5, you would hope that the guys at Flyin' Miata pursue the build and offer a complete package. Then it could be driven. And there would be more coverage, hopefully from PH... 400hp should suit, right lads?

[Sources: Carscoops, Road&Track, Flyin' Miata]

Author
Discussion

culpz

Original Poster:

3,893 posts

44 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
I mean, it's great to have choice and options with tuning, but i am the only one that think this is a bit overkill? Getting an MX5 turbocharged or supercharged is one thing, and also a great thing, i might add. However, MX5 owners are not in it for outright speed and pace. If they do, they've got the above.

I can only imagine the overall cost of this conversion, too. I think what i'm saying is, for me, having one with forced induction would be more than enough. Fair enough, others may not be the same, but then again, if that's the case, wouldn't buying a completely different car be a better bet?

treeroy

307 posts

17 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
culpz said:
I mean, it's great to have choice and options with tuning, but i am the only one that think this is a bit overkill? Getting an MX5 turbocharged or supercharged is one thing, and also a great thing, i might add. However, MX5 owners are not in it for outright speed and pace. If they do, they've got the above.

I can only imagine the overall cost of this conversion, too. I think what i'm saying is, for me, having one with forced induction would be more than enough. Fair enough, others may not be the same, but then again, if that's the case, wouldn't buying a completely different car be a better bet?
Some people just love MX-5s and want to get as much out of them as possible. I have seen some pretty extreme versions! also for Americans there are not very many cars like the MX-5, all their powerful cars are hideous muscle cars like corvettes.

LaurasOtherHalf

13,419 posts

128 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Power corrupts smile

Having driven a customer’s turbo’d GT86 however I can’t help thinking there’d be great market for something reasonably light, reasonably practical with 250bhp per ton. All with a manufacturers warranty.

topless360

2,747 posts

150 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
I'm surprised there aren't more cars out there with Twincharging. Best of both worlds surely, instant response of the supercharger with big boost of the turbo.
What are the downsides?

daddy cool

2,747 posts

161 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
topless360 said:
I'm surprised there aren't more cars out there with Twincharging. Best of both worlds surely, instant response of the supercharger with big boost of the turbo.
What are the downsides?
Rather than choosing between the initial hassle of drilling the sump for the turbo oil feed, or the ongoing hassle of belt alignment and tension with the supercharger, this literally gives you the worst of both worlds! biggrin


(my MX5 used to be supercharged, by the way, loved it)
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hornmeister

297 posts

23 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Owners of VAG 1.4 twincharged engines can tell you why not many people uses them as standard.

Max_Torque

12,488 posts

149 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Back in 1985, when control electronics and turbocharger tech was in it's infancy, combing a mechanically driven supercharger with an exhaust driven turbocharger made (some) sense. In 2018, er no. Way better to just use two turbo's or better still, just one VGT turbo.......

boosted86

2 posts

19 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Is this to showcase engineering ability and keep the die hard fans happy? Either way hats off for doing something different.

culpz

Original Poster:

3,893 posts

44 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
topless360 said:
I'm surprised there aren't more cars out there with Twincharging. Best of both worlds surely, instant response of the supercharger with big boost of the turbo.
What are the downsides?
Is it though? The MX5 is a light car so, even with a bit of turbo lag, it's never going to be slow or be very laggy. This is why i'm questioning the demand for twin-charged power in such a car.

The downsides in the past has been over-complication. VW are fully aware of this, as has already been stated by someone else. The twin-charged 1.4 TSI unit used in the Scirocco/Polo GTI is the main example.

Sometimes, twin-charging doesn't quite work the way it should. However, that's more hear-say. I remember a few reviews stating that the engine in the Scirocco didn't really feel like it was doing what it should on paper.

HorneyMX5

4,102 posts

82 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
My mate built a twin charged mk1. The turbo was under the rear bumper. It lasted about 3 miles. 3 brilliant, ridiculous, fast miles.

Be interesting to see the finished article, but I’m not sure what the goal is. Modern turbo chargers can do big power with little lag which seems to make the idea of twin charging a bit redundant. Interesting project nonetheless.

Which reminds me. I was down at Skuzzle Motorsport the other day and he was mapping a car built by a customer. 280whp at 11psi of boost and 7,500rpm. Sounds good right? The set up can run 30psi of boost and 9,000rpm but it’s turned down for reliability. The general consensus was it could probably see 400whp+ with the wick turned up. Mental.

griffdude

1,444 posts

180 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Wotcha Horney!

Those rascals at Davefab already have a 370hp MX5 using a EFR turbo which by all accounts its pretty much lag free. https://davefab.com/shop/mx5-t25-turbo-manifold/

I’m guessing the FM guys are using a Rotrex SC as the packaging is a lot smaller than the Eaton in mine.

C.A.R.

3,326 posts

120 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
culpz said:
I mean, it's great to have choice and options with tuning, but i am the only one that think this is a bit overkill? Getting an MX5 turbocharged or supercharged is one thing, and also a great thing, i might add. However, MX5 owners are not in it for outright speed and pace. If they do, they've got the above.
I think to put it into perspective you have to consider the Flyin' Miata business model. If they can make it work and sell it, then why not?

Their success suggests that there is a decent part of MX5 owners demographic that very much is 'in it for outright speed' smile

I miss my MK1 frown

Ninja59

1,640 posts

44 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Nuts absolutely bloody nuts. Brilliant though.

The Polestar 2.0 litre V60/S60 is the only other twincharger I can think of beyond the 1.4TSI from VW.

HorneyMX5

4,102 posts

82 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
griffdude said:
Wotcha Horney!

Those rascals at Davefab already have a 370hp MX5 using a EFR turbo which by all accounts its pretty much lag free. https://davefab.com/shop/mx5-t25-turbo-manifold/

I’m guessing the FM guys are using a Rotrex SC as the packaging is a lot smaller than the Eaton in mine.
Ah the Daves, lovely chaps and handy with a welding torch to boot. Love that car so much. Tried chasing them round Llandow in my Mk3 last summer. No chance. Lol.

sidesauce

737 posts

150 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
treeroy said:
all their powerful cars are hideous muscle cars like corvettes.
Corvettes aren't classed and were never marketed/sold as muscle cars (as they only have two seats and aren't sedans), they're sports cars.

Corvettes aren't hideous either.

carl_w

6,068 posts

190 months

Wednesday 24th January
quotequote all
Ninja59 said:
Nuts absolutely bloody nuts. Brilliant though.

The Polestar 2.0 litre V60/S60 is the only other twincharger I can think of beyond the 1.4TSI from VW.
Did you never play Gran Turismo? Nissan Micra (March) Super Turbo?

Plus the Lancia Delta S4 had a "Stradale" road car version with a supercharger and turbocharger.

mainaman

376 posts

117 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
hornmeister said:
Owners of VAG 1.4 twincharged engines can tell you why not many people uses them as standard.
I loved mine,probably the most characterful small four pot around.VAG axed it for cost reasons(cheaper to build turbos only) and over a sort of owners backlash-the type of drivers,who are not bothered to check the oil level every week,leading to in-warranty failures.

RBH58

920 posts

67 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Fiat elected to use the NC gearbox for the 124 variants because the new ND gearbox couldn't handle the 124's 250nm and the NC gearbox was rated to 300nm. And then the early versions of the ND gearbox broke when the MX5's 200nm was thrown at them. And this Twincharged MX5 will attempt to push what? 400nm? ...through a gearbox that Fiat wasn't confident could handle 250nm?

Good luck with that.

PunterCam

711 posts

127 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
Over the last 10 years or so I've come to the conclusion that all turbocharged cars are ste. Rubbish throttle response, sluggish engines, crap power curves that make just pulling into traffic a fking lottery.. Shove this ruined mx5 up your arse.





mgrays

182 posts

122 months

Thursday 25th January
quotequote all
The reason the VAG idea was not great was the downsize so you could burn oil on crank case vent pressure I suspect. Certainly my Mk1 FM2 does and on a commute into Stuttgart you could smell the oil from the MB S/C cars at the 110 mph cruise with the roof down.

If you want the 400 hp top end then the turbo will be too big for it to get going sub 3,000 rpm. Porsche used variable vane turbos which is what the diesels do but it is hard to get them to survive petrol temperatures. Adding second turbo or a supercharger makes sense and a supercharger gives better off boost response so is the better choice. I did size it up about 10 years ago and talk about it on miatapower where the FM crew (Bill, Keith and Corky before they fell out) hang out.. sure there are a hand full out there already but I guess I have been out of it for 5 years now.

The issue I have would be the stiffness of the body shell as that is the power limiter here. A Mk1 with all the braces bar roll bar and door bars is a pretty floppy thing. Different horses for courses but a stonking V8 with a high rpm has to tick the boxes - I was wonder about the Volvo one when it came out and Noble proved that was a nice idea. The Lexus V8 is nice way too.

Normal service will resume .. back to hairdressing quips for the rest of you.