Tuesday 10th April 2018

Prior Convictions: Heavy metal

The next Ford Focus RS will likely be a hybrid and, therefore, heavier than it is now. Expect that trend to continue...

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Word from the other side of the PH office is that the next-generation Ford Focus RS will have electrical assistance, giving a development of the 2.3-litre petrol engine it runs now 400hp. Autocar reckons it's due in 2020.

Which says a bit about the next-generation Ford Focus RS, but even more about performance cars from big carmakers.

As you'll know, upcoming emissions regulations mean carmakers need to cut the average CO2 outputs from their model line-ups. If they don't make too many cars a year, there are some exemptions and easier-going reductions, but Ford - like other big OEMs - will have to have a fleet average output of 95g/km by 2021.

Which is dandy. Difficult, apparently, but achievable, albeit at the cost of ancillaries to make diesels clean enough, and battery tech to make petrols efficient enough, CO2 versus air quality being the debate of our age.

And this won't come without connotations for performance cars from big manufacturers. Time was they'd stick a big engine in a hatchback to make it hot. These days they still can, but the resulting CO2 output might push their average over the edge, so they won't.

Which means a performance car from a big carmaker will have to be one of two things: not so powerful and simple (read, light) or more powerful and clever (read, heavy). Either way, it mustn't tip a range's CO2 emissions into the red.

I wonder if that's how we've ended up with the Alpine A110 (light) and Honda NSX (clever). If the Autocar report is accurate - and I think it is - for the Focus that means it gets a 48v electrical system, encompassing a 'shoe-box sized battery' under the rear seats and an electric motor to boost the engine's power, particularly at lower revs, where it can fill any torque gap. Sounds complicated. Sounds fast. But sounds heavy.

The alternative is that it makes less power than today, and weighs less, and perhaps would even revert to front drive. But who would sit in a planning meeting and suggest that a new car costs less and has less power than the old one? Sounds like something purists might love, but that few people would buy, and unlike with the Mk1 Focus RS, all such cars from all carmakers are expected to wipe their feet and return a profit these days.

So, the part-electric hot hatchback. Ideal? Perhaps not. But inevitable? Certainly.

[culpz]

Overall increased size/length/dimensions on new cars obviously doesn't help either. I think manufacturers will find a way to make them lighter eventually though, or at least keep them a similar weight to what they are now.

This next Focus RS, for example. If they do go for a hybrid route, the extra weight made by the electric motor could be offset by making the rest of the car lighter. So, in theory, they could make it about the same weight as the current model.

I'm sure as electric technology moves forward and starts to eventually become mainstream, the battery tech will also improve and drop in weight. I did read about a Tesla Model S that destroyed it's brakes and tyres completely within a few laps on a track.

[paranoid airbag]

There already is a lighter, cheaper, 2WD focus RS... called the ST. The fiesta is lighter and cheaper still.

I'd humbly suggest that if you want light, simple and fun, spending >£30k on one car that does everything is a terrible tactic. Such a car will inherently be complex and heavy.

I'd like to point out the UK is a comparatively VERY easy place to build your own car, cheaply enough to run alongside a daily. If the compromises such a car brings are not for you... maybe lightness and simplicity aren't.

[Nickp82]

I will take the 'less powerful and simple' option please

[The test driver]

So automatic trans only Focus RS from 2020 on?

[culpz]

paranoid airbag said:

There already is a lighter, cheaper, 2WD focus RS... called the ST. The fiesta is lighter and cheaper still.

I'd humbly suggest that if you want light, simple and fun, spending >£30k on one car that does everything is a terrible tactic. Such a car will inherently be complex and heavy.

I'd like to point out the UK is a comparatively VERY easy place to build your own car, cheaply enough to run alongside a daily. If the compromises such a car brings are not for you... maybe lightness and simplicity aren't.

A Fiesta ST is no substitute for the Focus RS though. I agree that the Fiesta is the perfect size, weight and power for a modern car on our roads. I've actually been saying that for a while now. They're two very different cars.

I don't agree with your ease of a two-car garage theory. I see the Focus RS as a good single car to have, especially if running more than one car is out of the question. Running more than one car is rarely cheap either way.

Nickp82 said:

I will take the 'less powerful and simple' option please

Funnily enough, the new MK8 Fiesta ST is more complicated and not as simple as the previous MK7 model and actually adopts more complex tech from the Focus RS, such as the various selectable driving modes.

[BrassMan]

Nickp82 said:

I will take the 'less powerful and simple' option please

Maybe, but everyone else will want and extra 50hp and a supercharger.

[Onehp]

I would love a 'light' 4wd hot hatch estate for the next RS. 50kg more for the estate, but -100kg with better design/materials. Keep out of the option list and that car would be less than 1500kg kerb (without driver). In a time where performance oriented 4wd estates weigh close or over 2000kg.... then 350hp as today would be plenty, a 48v system shouldn't be much heavier (because of the higher voltage and advanced batteries and no need for seperate starter motor), adding an electrical compressor to eradicate turbolag would be great. Much much much more fuel efficient than anti-lag of old...

I can dream. Till then, my 370hp 1410kg kerb FWD Cupra family estate/b-road warrior will do fine...

[j90gta]

What would Colin Chapman have made of all this? I'm sure that he would just "add lightness" even to an Elise. Too many modern cars are over-complicated for the sake of it. So many people cry out for analogue sports cars that have to be driven not just steered. We are offered so much technology just for the sake of it; how many people who buy such a car actually know how everything works and what the benefits are?

[RacerMike]

Article said:

It gets a 48v electrical system, encompassing a 'shoe-box sized battery' under the rear seats and an electric motor to boost the engine's power, particularly at lower revs, where it can fill any torque gap. Sounds complicated. Sounds fast. But sounds heavy.

How does a shoe box sized battery and an electric motor sound heavy? You already have a slightly smaller than a shoebox lead acid 12v battery and a 12v starter motor already. So you're doing away with this for a slightly larger (and probably Li) battery and starter motor that deliver a performance benefit. Sounds like a win win situations to me....

[GTEYE]

Surely we are close to a tipping point now where less actually is more.

To be honest, I'd rather have a lighter 250hp Focus ST than a 400hp Focus RS for road use.

How much actual fun is a car when you can barely enjoy a few seconds of power before having to back off.

If power was dialled back a bit, lightness naturally follows - smaller wheels, smaller tyres, smaller brakes.....and we might get back some actual enjoyment.

The relentless chase for more more more of everything means this is unlikely to happen....whats needed is a revolution....but something more radical than a GT86 (which to be fair was a start!)

[anonymous-user]

RacerMike said:

Article said:

It gets a 48v electrical system, encompassing a 'shoe-box sized battery' under the rear seats and an electric motor to boost the engine's power, particularly at lower revs, where it can fill any torque gap. Sounds complicated. Sounds fast. But sounds heavy.

How does a shoe box sized battery and an electric motor sound heavy? You already have a slightly smaller than a shoebox lead acid 12v battery and a 12v starter motor already. So you're doing away with this for a slightly larger (and probably Li) battery and starter motor that deliver a performance benefit. Sounds like a win win situations to me....

Assuming it IS 48V (and there are some valid reasons for staying below the 50Vdc above which all the "high voltage" regulations kick in) then it clearly isn't going to be driving the wheels directly! To get just 5kW additional power would take over 100 amps at 48v, and considering the engine is going to be making something like 250kW, that's a tiny "Boost".

No, far, far more likely is an electrically assisted boosting system, to enable a further downsized engine to still feel nice and driveable without excessive lag or boost threshold. Add in a Belt-ISG or small crank coupled eMachine, and gain some small regen capability during coasting and light decels and some low speed electric only creep (perhaps up to ~25mph). A small bi-directional DC-DC can shuffle power between the 48V bits of the system (the BISG & eBooster) and the conventional 12v system. Something like 4 to 6 kWH of battery, weighing around 40kg would be required. The BISG is weight neutral for a conventional alternator, the eBooster an additional 8 to 12kg and the DC/DC a further 2kg.

That gives you a total mass penalty of around 55kg. (starter delete, only really possible if the alternator / BISG is replaced with a crank coupled eMachine) knocks around 5kg off that increase)


However, you have added a huge amount of cost and complexity to gain very little in the real world (remember the Certification tests now use the more aggressive WLTP cycle, which is much more like real world driving, meaning small scale hybridisation is effectively becoming worthless.


Far. far better to just go HV and go full EV...........

[MustardCutter]

The Autocar article is pure speculation; they've taken quotes from different people at different times to create their own narrative and made up some power figures for good measure. I'll believe it's true when Ford actually announce / confirm anything. This PH article strikes me as a cynical attempt to add hits to the Autocar site and nothing more. A bit like the 370Z replacement confirmed article that rehashed old rumours and presented it as fact with zero confirmation from Nissan....

[Flibble]

GTEYE said:

The relentless chase for more more more of everything means this is unlikely to happen....whats needed is a revolution....but something more radical than a GT86 (which to be fair was a start!)

Indeed, but even though the GT86 was merely nudging in the right direction, and everyone says it's too slow and needs more weight power.

[Onehp]

The Focus platform is apparently 85kg lighter. Good going, bit closer to my dream (see my previous post).

Not so sure it really was better before. I try to put my money where my mouth is and value relative lightweight. Relative to space/usability (which really is used):
- A GT86 is more practical than a 911, and ours is ~1200kg kerb, have to go back quite some time to find a lighter yet more powerful 911... And the price is...
- The Cupra estate is 590l boot, 5 seater, now 3,8kg/hp on 1410kg kerb. Not aware of any car of old that betters that, actually...

[SturdyHSV]

j90gta said:

What would Colin Chapman have made of all this? I'm sure that he would just "add lightness" even to an Elise. Too many modern cars are over-complicated for the sake of it. So many people cry out for analogue sports cars that have to be driven not just steered. We are offered so much technology just for the sake of it; how many people who buy such a car actually know how everything works and what the benefits are?

They're not over-complicated for the sake of it, they're appropriately complicated to provide their customers with what they want.

So many people cry out for analog sports cars on forums like these, but they mostly don't buy them and would still be in the overwhelming minority even if they did all buy them.

How many people buy a washing machine who actually know how everything works and what the benefits are? It's no different, just because you're enthusiastic about cars and not washing machines

[RacerMike]

Max_Torque said:

RacerMike said:

Article said:

It gets a 48v electrical system, encompassing a 'shoe-box sized battery' under the rear seats and an electric motor to boost the engine's power, particularly at lower revs, where it can fill any torque gap. Sounds complicated. Sounds fast. But sounds heavy.

How does a shoe box sized battery and an electric motor sound heavy? You already have a slightly smaller than a shoebox lead acid 12v battery and a 12v starter motor already. So you're doing away with this for a slightly larger (and probably Li) battery and starter motor that deliver a performance benefit. Sounds like a win win situations to me....

Assuming it IS 48V (and there are some valid reasons for staying below the 50Vdc above which all the "high voltage" regulations kick in) then it clearly isn't going to be driving the wheels directly! To get just 5kW additional power would take over 100 amps at 48v, and considering the engine is going to be making something like 250kW, that's a tiny "Boost".

No, far, far more likely is an electrically assisted boosting system, to enable a further downsized engine to still feel nice and driveable without excessive lag or boost threshold. Add in a Belt-ISG or small crank coupled eMachine, and gain some small regen capability during coasting and light decels and some low speed electric only creep (perhaps up to ~25mph). A small bi-directional DC-DC can shuffle power between the 48V bits of the system (the BISG & eBooster) and the conventional 12v system. Something like 4 to 6 kWH of battery, weighing around 40kg would be required. The BISG is weight neutral for a conventional alternator, the eBooster an additional 8 to 12kg and the DC/DC a further 2kg.

That gives you a total mass penalty of around 55kg. (starter delete, only really possible if the alternator / BISG is replaced with a crank coupled eMachine) knocks around 5kg off that increase)


However, you have added a huge amount of cost and complexity to gain very little in the real world (remember the Certification tests now use the more aggressive WLTP cycle, which is much more like real world driving, meaning small scale hybridisation is effectively becoming worthless.


Far. far better to just go HV and go full EV...........

And yet a vast number of production cars being developed currently are going down the route of BISG and 48v electrics....

[anonymous-user]

RacerMike said:

Max_Torque said:

RacerMike said:

Article said:

It gets a 48v electrical system, encompassing a 'shoe-box sized battery' under the rear seats and an electric motor to boost the engine's power, particularly at lower revs, where it can fill any torque gap. Sounds complicated. Sounds fast. But sounds heavy.

How does a shoe box sized battery and an electric motor sound heavy? You already have a slightly smaller than a shoebox lead acid 12v battery and a 12v starter motor already. So you're doing away with this for a slightly larger (and probably Li) battery and starter motor that deliver a performance benefit. Sounds like a win win situations to me....

Assuming it IS 48V (and there are some valid reasons for staying below the 50Vdc above which all the "high voltage" regulations kick in) then it clearly isn't going to be driving the wheels directly! To get just 5kW additional power would take over 100 amps at 48v, and considering the engine is going to be making something like 250kW, that's a tiny "Boost".

No, far, far more likely is an electrically assisted boosting system, to enable a further downsized engine to still feel nice and driveable without excessive lag or boost threshold. Add in a Belt-ISG or small crank coupled eMachine, and gain some small regen capability during coasting and light decels and some low speed electric only creep (perhaps up to ~25mph). A small bi-directional DC-DC can shuffle power between the 48V bits of the system (the BISG & eBooster) and the conventional 12v system. Something like 4 to 6 kWH of battery, weighing around 40kg would be required. The BISG is weight neutral for a conventional alternator, the eBooster an additional 8 to 12kg and the DC/DC a further 2kg.

That gives you a total mass penalty of around 55kg. (starter delete, only really possible if the alternator / BISG is replaced with a crank coupled eMachine) knocks around 5kg off that increase)


However, you have added a huge amount of cost and complexity to gain very little in the real world (remember the Certification tests now use the more aggressive WLTP cycle, which is much more like real world driving, meaning small scale hybridisation is effectively becoming worthless.


Far. far better to just go HV and go full EV...........

And yet a vast number of production cars being developed currently are going down the route of BISG and 48v electrics....

Indeed they are, and they will be obsolete within 5 years in my estimation!

(as battery costs continue to fall, and the cost of high power EV powertrains falls as well, why spend x on a mild hybrid,when for just 30% more you could have a full EV powertrain. As charging infrastructure ramps up, the reasons to buy a car with an ICE in it will, very quickly, become few and far between!)

[anthonysjb]

Max_Torque said:

Assuming it IS 48V (and there are some valid reasons for staying below the 50Vdc above which all the "high voltage" regulations kick in) then it clearly isn't going to be driving the wheels directly! To get just 5kW additional power would take over 100 amps at 48v, and considering the engine is going to be making something like 250kW, that's a tiny "Boost".

No, far, far more likely is an electrically assisted boosting system, to enable a further downsized engine to still feel nice and driveable without excessive lag or boost threshold. Add in a Belt-ISG or small crank coupled eMachine, and gain some small regen capability during coasting and light decels and some low speed electric only creep (perhaps up to ~25mph). A small bi-directional DC-DC can shuffle power between the 48V bits of the system (the BISG & eBooster) and the conventional 12v system. Something like 4 to 6 kWH of battery, weighing around 40kg would be required. The BISG is weight neutral for a conventional alternator, the eBooster an additional 8 to 12kg and the DC/DC a further 2kg.

That gives you a total mass penalty of around 55kg. (starter delete, only really possible if the alternator / BISG is replaced with a crank coupled eMachine) knocks around 5kg off that increase)


However, you have added a huge amount of cost and complexity to gain very little in the real world (remember the Certification tests now use the more aggressive WLTP cycle, which is much more like real world driving, meaning small scale hybridisation is effectively becoming worthless.


Far. far better to just go HV and go full EV...........

[JMF894]

Onehp said:

I would love a 'light' 4wd hot hatch estate for the next RS. 50kg more for the estate, but -100kg with better design/materials. Keep out of the option list and that car would be less than 1500kg kerb (without driver). In a time where performance oriented 4wd estates weigh close or over 2000kg.... then 350hp as today would be plenty, a 48v system shouldn't be much heavier (because of the higher voltage and advanced batteries and no need for seperate starter motor), adding an electrical compressor to eradicate turbolag would be great. Much much much more fuel efficient than anti-lag of old...

I can dream. Till then, my 370hp 1410kg kerb FWD Cupra family estate/b-road warrior will do fine...

I'm assuming it's properly sorted and has a quaife to actually be able to use it...?

[Onehp]

JMF894 said:

Onehp said:

I can dream (of a lighter RS estate, ed.). Till then, my 370hp 1410kg kerb FWD Cupra family estate/b-road warrior will do fine...

I'm assuming it's properly sorted and has a quaife to actually be able to use it...?

Sure. Well honestly, if the same existed with a rear driven axle, I would take that, but for the same practicality and power/weight, you end up with at least 400kg more today. The Cupra ST has a electronically controlled mechanical diff, and it does contribute a lot to the joy of driving it, also sorted with some other stuff and with proper tyres - with MPS4 tyres I can put all power down in 2nd, 3rd in the wet (or winters in the dry). Which is what I need, all my red lights are in 30mph areas anyhow. But I do miss drive to the rear (also) in winter (I'm in Sweden).... so I'm hoping for the manual FRS estate do-it-all that only adds 100kg at most (now the rwd comes with the other car which cannot be kept at home, so limited use). Oh, and the Cupra does exist as 4drive now, but don't like autobox and limited drive to rear/brake based power distribution L/R.