RE: PH Service History: Hybrid Theory

RE: PH Service History: Hybrid Theory

Sunday 15th April 2018

PH Service History: Hybrid Theory

The prospect of a petrol-electric Focus RS might be alarming, but Scrof ponders whether 'hybrid' is still a dirty word



Earlier this week, my esteemed colleague Mr Prior discussed the various (or scant, depending on your point of view) merits of the mooted hybrid Ford Focus RS. And I must admit, upon hearing the news, to a certain amount of disappointment. After all, hot hatches are at their most appealing when they're small, light and underpowered, aren't they? Consider the Citroen AX GT, the Suzuki Swift Sport, and indeed Ford's own SportKa. A Focus RS with the added weight and complication of a 48v hybrid boost, therefore, sounds like the antithesis of all that's best about hot hatchery.

But there's a chance here that I'm being an old stick-in-the-mud. After all, not every hybrid is a Prius; these days, hybrids are starting to shake off that dowdy image, and already in the technology's back catalogue, there's some evidence that adding electric power to petrol can be a force for good, rather than just do-goodery.


You don't have to look hard for that evidence - indeed, it can be found for less than six grand in one of my favourite used buys of the moment: the Honda CR-Z. These little coupes were hardly quick, but they were lots of fun, with snicky steering, excellent body control and grip, and S2000-esque dashboards. What's more, unlike most hybrids, they featured a manual gearbox - and a slick-shifting six-speeder, at that, which made extracting the full potential of the electric-boosted powerplant deeply satisfying. This one, historied and not too leggy, should go on forever, and offer plenty of smiles along the way.

Or perhaps we should look instead to the BMW i3 for hope. It's hardly hot hatch territory, but this is a tall, slightly ungainly thing that its manufacturer has managed to make handle remarkably well through clever packaging and management of the centre of gravity. If they can do that, who knows what Ford - which also knows a thing or two about setting up a chassis - can do with a more conventional shape? A Range Extender, incidentally, is now down to £17,250, which strikes me as a lot of innovative car for relatively little cash. I reckon it's endowed with one of the best-looking interiors in the business, too.


For those in search of a hybrid thrill with a little more to spend, there's always the i3's big brother, the i8. As I've mentioned in the past, these are now creeping toward genuine affordability, but they've held their value better than some would have predicted, possibly because there's nothing else out there that really compares. In this case, it's probably fair to say the driving experience doesn't quite stack up to the promise of the looks, but despite that the i8 is a car I've always been willing to give a bit of a free pass to; I'd live with the slightly dead steering for the thrummy engine note, gorgeously crafted interior, those looks, and the instant shove you get from the electric motor. This one's the cheapest in the classifieds, floating around the £50,000 mark, despite being for sale through BMW's Approved Used scheme.

But it feels wrong to discuss the sorts of hybrids you won't find on your next Uber ride without mentioning at least one of the big three hybrid hypercars. Let us, therefore, go for the most affordable - though never has that term been used more relatively, because I can't imagine more than 0.1 per cent of the world's population would consider it to apply to this Porsche 918 Spyder. It's on for - are you ready? - £1.2 million, which if my (admittedly decidedly fag-packet) calculations are correct, means its value has increased by considerably more than the average UK house price during its short existence. It does, of course, have the Weissach Pack, and a tasteful black-on-black colour scheme means it'll be about as discreet as such a thing can be.


There's one more notable thing about it, too, which is that the previous owner has managed to clock up a faintly astonishing 17,980 miles, suggesting some surprisingly regular usage. Or lots of trips to the South of France. Probably the latter, actually. Still, fair play for not hiding it away in a garage somewhere - and proof positive that a useable hybrid performance car like this one... or, um, the entirely similar and absolutely not tenuously linked Focus RS... is perhaps not something we need to fear after all. And if you still can't shake that yearning for a simpler age, my advice is to pop out and drop two and a half grand on a Swift Sport like this one - quick, before I do.





Author
Discussion

Equus

Original Poster:

16,875 posts

101 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
The CRX has 'Snicky steering'?

You mean it's crabby, unpleasant and deviously stubborn?

But I thought that 'snicky' (or rather 'snickety') came under 'gearchange' in the amateur motoring journo's list of sad, worn-out cliches?

Numeric

1,396 posts

151 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
I failed at Lego so clearly have NO engineering knowledge at all so I ask for a bit of help here?

How can it be more efficient to create momentum (I failed at physics too) using one sort of engine which at the same time charges up another engine (surely losing energy while doing it?) and then using that as well to create momentum.

I can sort of get my head around a power station being more efficient then lots of internal combustion engines hence electric cars being overall cleaner, at least that is what I am told so could well be a myth, but he hybrid thing just feels wrong.

It doesn't help that everyone I know with Mitsu Phev and BMW E soon give up charging to get the 20 miles of E range cos it's a 'hassle' and spend all their time saying how awful the fuel consumption is on the motorway and thank goodness for the tax break as they get 30s to the gallon they say!

But it must work in reality?

josh00mac

321 posts

108 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Given that my phone and laptop battery are totalled after 5 years, who will be buying these things 3rd hand?

Sensei Rob

312 posts

79 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Numeric said:
How can it be more efficient to create momentum (I failed at physics too) using one sort of engine which at the same time charges up another engine (surely losing energy while doing it?) and then using that as well to create momentum.

I can sort of get my head around a power station being more efficient then lots of internal combustion engines hence electric cars being overall cleaner, at least that is what I am told so could well be a myth, but he hybrid thing just feels wrong.
With a regular car, the Kinetic Energy is converted into Heat by the brakes. This is all effectively lost energy. In a hybrid, the Kinetic energy is being turned into heat and electrical energy as it slows down, i.e. less kinetic energy is being wasted as heat. This electrical energy can then be used to propel the car forward.

Julian Thompson

2,543 posts

238 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Just a thought - would there be any mileage in a hybrid system that didn’t have a motor, and instead used the regenerative power to run everything electric on the car? You’d need presumably small and light batteries and a very much reduced weight and complexity? How much energy would this save?

3ster

2 posts

121 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Interesting that the BMW i3 is included in this Hybrid car article, is it not an electric car? If fitted, the range extender engine does not drive the wheels directly, nor does it charge the battery, it is a generator to provide electricity for the electric motor.

Black S2K

1,471 posts

249 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Julian Thompson said:
Just a thought - would there be any mileage in a hybrid system that didn’t have a motor, and instead used the regenerative power to run everything electric on the car? You’d need presumably small and light batteries and a very much reduced weight and complexity? How much energy would this save?
Don't overlook the second law of thermodynamics - with regard to entropy.

IOW, a lot of the energy generated/recovered is lost as heat. One of the biggest obstacles is that one can only charge batteries at a certain rate, otherwise the electrodes overheat & it goes all Tesla-explodey on you. Short bursts of deceleration would not help you on a boring wet motorway, with lights, wipers, seat heaters and ICE running constantly.

It might be feasible with nanotube electrodes sometime in the future.

Although the 'smart alternators' used by BMW et al go some way towards your idea.

kambites

67,554 posts

221 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
josh00mac said:
Given that my phone and laptop battery are totalled after 5 years, who will be buying these things 3rd hand?
People who realise that a car battery is a world away from a laptop or phone battery?

only1ian

688 posts

194 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Missed a performance bargain here PH! Has anyone else seen the prices of Lexus GS 450H! Gearbox might be crap but everything else isn’t!

Black S2K

1,471 posts

249 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
kambites said:
josh00mac said:
Given that my phone and laptop battery are totalled after 5 years, who will be buying these things 3rd hand?
People who realise that a car battery is a world away from a laptop or phone battery?
"Hybrid battery lifespan

Maintenance and service costs for a hybrid vehicle are similar to conventional petrol or diesel cars and your Toyota Hybrid battery is also covered by the same 5-year or 100,000-mile warranty as the rest of the car.

Having an annual ‘Hybrid Health Check’ by Toyota will extend the standard warranty for another year, or 10,000 miles, meaning your hybrid battery lifespan can be covered up to a total of 11 years, with no limit on total mileage. Remember too, that Toyota’s Hybrid Health Check is free as part of your overall servicing plan – and only costs £45 should you wish to have one done as a one-off."

Doesn't seem too bad, but that's Toyota for you.

jay-kay-em

224 posts

204 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Dirty word for some, me included.

Car enthusiasts are at a fork in the road - those who embrace it and those that don't.

When you maintain your own car, your hand is forced what you can fix on your driveway.

I am a dying breed. But hopefully I can limp internal combustion until I drop off this mortal coil.

Much like steam rallies, I will be sat on my deck chair next to my stinky car on rationed petrol.

At the advent of diesel locomotion, we gas-axed steam engines like no tomorrow. Now we look at them fondly. I hope the cars I love the most will have the same fate, with recognised preservation.

That's no criticism to those that do 'new cars' and mega miles. I understand the need - and the needs of this small planet. Its just not for me.

delta0

2,348 posts

106 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Numeric said:
I failed at Lego so clearly have NO engineering knowledge at all so I ask for a bit of help here?

How can it be more efficient to create momentum (I failed at physics too) using one sort of engine which at the same time charges up another engine (surely losing energy while doing it?) and then using that as well to create momentum.

I can sort of get my head around a power station being more efficient then lots of internal combustion engines hence electric cars being overall cleaner, at least that is what I am told so could well be a myth, but he hybrid thing just feels wrong.

It doesn't help that everyone I know with Mitsu Phev and BMW E soon give up charging to get the 20 miles of E range cos it's a 'hassle' and spend all their time saying how awful the fuel consumption is on the motorway and thank goodness for the tax break as they get 30s to the gallon they say!

But it must work in reality?
Most vehicles are tuned to run well over a range of rpms. This is a compromise. When running as a range extender it is running at a very optimal rpm and is tuned to run at that rpm only. This method is also applied in helicopters and propeller planes. They often run at a fixed rpm and the blades are tilted. This is far more efficient. This is also why we are suddenly seeing a massive amount of interest in rotary engines again. Toyota have just bought lots from Mazda. They are unbelievably efficient at fixed rpm and extremely compact and light for their power output.

delta0

2,348 posts

106 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
CVT is great as are a lot of the gearboxes that are able to keep the engine in a narrow range. If you limited the engine a specific rpm though you get a lot more options for efficiencies. The engine would even be allowed to go to any other rpm.

Edited by delta0 on Sunday 15th April 16:57

unsprung

5,467 posts

124 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
Some may feel otherwise, but I'd also consider the second-generation Honda Insight as a high-utility run-about-town sort of thing. With rear seats folded, there's a surprising amount of space in back. Last produced in 2014.


G.Fraser

206 posts

126 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
I fully expect to be in the minority here, but as a fan and owner of a hot Ford hatch I find the prospect of a mild hybrid RS tremendously exciting! Just keep it manual please...and lower the seat height a bit!

Q Car

138 posts

190 months

Sunday 15th April 2018
quotequote all
I really want to like the hybrid thing, but I am somewhat put off by the Gen2 Honda Insight we had. Over the 62k miles I did in it, it averaged exactly what my wife’s Honda Jazz (with the same ICE I believe) averaged in mpg over 80k miles. All of that hybrid tech and the environmental impact of manufacturing it, just to offset the weight of carrying it around?....

dobly

1,181 posts

159 months

Monday 16th April 2018
quotequote all
Honda have produced some interesting Hybrids - Mk1 Insight, Gen 2 NSX amongst others. Getting the balance between electrical assistance (& therefore additional weight) and engine size is tricky, to say the least.
The Gen 2 NSX has a 3.5l V6 - reviewers have commented that it drives as if it has at least a litre and a bit more of ooommph because of the electrical assist...

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

234 months

Monday 16th April 2018
quotequote all
unsprung said:
Some may feel otherwise, but I'd also consider the second-generation Honda Insight as a high-utility run-about-town sort of thing. With rear seats folded, there's a surprising amount of space in back. Last produced in 2014.

I quite fancy one of these or a Civic hybrid for the wife but what's the battery life like? Don't want to buy one to then be faced with a big bill for fixing it!

romac

595 posts

146 months

Monday 16th April 2018
quotequote all
Numeric said:
I failed at Lego so clearly have NO engineering knowledge at all so I ask for a bit of help here?

How can it be more efficient to create momentum (I failed at physics too) using one sort of engine which at the same time charges up another engine (surely losing energy while doing it?) and then using that as well to create momentum.

I can sort of get my head around a power station being more efficient then lots of internal combustion engines hence electric cars being overall cleaner, at least that is what I am told so could well be a myth, but he hybrid thing just feels wrong.

It doesn't help that everyone I know with Mitsu Phev and BMW E soon give up charging to get the 20 miles of E range cos it's a 'hassle' and spend all their time saying how awful the fuel consumption is on the motorway and thank goodness for the tax break as they get 30s to the gallon they say!

But it must work in reality?
Julian Thompson said:
Just a thought - would there be any mileage in a hybrid system that didn’t have a motor, and instead used the regenerative power to run everything electric on the car? You’d need presumably small and light batteries and a very much reduced weight and complexity? How much energy would this save?
The Toyota / Lexus system uses electric ancillaries such as electric water pump, air con pump etc, plus the "starter motor" is a big (for a starter) motor/generator that starts the engine almost silently and doubles as a generator for both 12V and hybrid battery systems. Most of the charge in the batteries comes from the ICE running and "surplus" energy being tapped off to charge the batteries. This sounds wasteful but is well controlled. For example, when cold the ICE will run at a fast tickover (which is generally better for engine longevity) and the excess energy is used for charging. Descending a steep hill lightly dragging the brakes can, with practise, give max regen without engaging the pads. My Auris Hybrid uses NiMH batteries, which have been proven to last very well and are not prohibitively expensive to replace. There is no clutch to wear out. The brakes last longer. It's a petrol automatic that is averaging better fuel consumption than my previous diesel 6sp manual Saab, and weighs less. Mileage 20k pa mixed town, country, motorway. (But nowt's perfect, and I do miss my Saabs!)

underphil

1,245 posts

210 months

Monday 16th April 2018
quotequote all
Julian Thompson said:
Just a thought - would there be any mileage in a hybrid system that didn’t have a motor, and instead used the regenerative power to run everything electric on the car? You’d need presumably small and light batteries and a very much reduced weight and complexity? How much energy would this save?
Quite a lot of cars on the road have this:

http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/...