RE: PH Service History: Starter for Five

RE: PH Service History: Starter for Five

Sunday 13th May 2018

PH Service History: Starter for Five

Not all classic cars' values have risen to preposterous levels. Scrof turns the rock over...



You've heard it all before. The prices of classic cars are ridiculous these days; the ship's sailed on so many desirable old motors; your chances of finding something interesting and old for anything approaching sensible money is basically naught, and high values are barring the next generation of enthusiasts from owning their own classics.

At this point in several discussions recently, I've had to raise a tentative hand and butt in with a "Well, that's not entirely true..." Because while big-ticket classics like older 911s, BMW M-cars and fast Fords have all rocketed to levels that put them well out of reach for most of us - let alone the cash-strapped youth - that doesn't mean the entire classic car market is now priced beyond reason. Happily, there are still some tidy older motors out there that you or I can buy and run for reasonable sums - and indeed, that young people can afford for less than the cost of a five-year-old Fiesta.

The way I see it, there are two ways of doing it. The first is to find the cars that the market's forgotten about; either because there are too many of them around, or because demand simply isn't that great.


One example of this right now is the Mk2 Volkswagen Scirocco. You can pick up an early GT or GTX in decent nick for about two or three grand, putting it well within reach, while even a late Scala - the most desirable of the bunch - won't set you back more than about five, as evinced by this example, which looks like it's covered a tenth of the miles it really has. While these old 'Roccos aren't particularly quick, they're handsome, economical and mechanically durable, making them excellent usable classics. Sportier versions are also blessed with a sprinkling of the handling magic of the contemporary Golf GTI, too.

Next up, the BMW E30 3-Series. Hardly a car you could describe as having been forgotten about by the market, I'll grant you, but that generally goes for the two-doors; the four-door saloon is still relatively cheap, and I can't think why, because it's getting more attractive by the day. What's more, like the Scirocco, it's a genuinely usable option and should prove robust and easy to fix. This 325i SE with cross-spokes, velour, an auto 'box, low mileage, a whopping history and a rust-free body (apparently) at £4995 sounds like a cracker, and if that's too rich for your blood, spend a little less on one with a few more miles. An old Beemer should stay the course.

And how about this Mazda 323 Turbo 4x4 for a rarity? I can't think of many turbocharged hot hatches from the 1980s that can be had in such good nick for £4500. This one isn't totally standard but what has been done to it is tasteful; what's more, the mileage is low, and there's a long MOT. A recent clutch, head gasket and water pump mean some of the big jobs have been taken care of, too. It's smart, it's quick, and nobody will know what the hell it is. Perfect.

So that's one way of doing it. The other, of course, is to buy a car that isn't quite a bona fide classic yet, but is about to become one, and ride the wave of price inflation. This is an especially good way of doing things if cash is tight; for example, I've lost count of the number of two-door six-pot E36s I've seen going for around £1000 in recent years that I've been tempted to buy and stash away somewhere.


Another car that's bound to ping up in price in the months to come is the Mk1 Mazda MX-5. Go for a clean, early 1.6-litre example for maximum future-classic cred; they're the ones most journos reckoned were the sweetest when new so they'll attract a smidge of extra mythos as time goes on. This one should do the trick, and while it's more than you'd have paid for one five years ago, it's still not mega money - especially given how solid and clean it is. It's also a rare, period-perfect colour and relatively unmolested, which will stand it in good stead as prices do inevitably inflate.

Too obvious? How's about something from out of left-field, like an Alfa Romeo 164? These were once peanuts, of course, but are now experiencing a quite staggering burst of the bumps, and I can see them following 75s and GTVs into genuine classic status. Remember this Cloverleaf we found earlier this year for £13k? Granted, this 12v V6 isn't as quick or as special, but it's only £4500, which seems much more reasonable. You still get that famous Busso engine note, not to mention Enrico Fumia's glorious razor-sharp lines, as well as a whopping stash of paperwork and some cracking period-correct Zender alloys. Hard to imagine this going anywhere but up so it makes sense to get in while it's still - reasonably - inexpensive.

There we have it, then, folks. Five cracking neo-classics, and not one of them costing more than £5k. Proof positive that while sky-high prices have pushed many classics out of reach, there are still some great cars out there to be had for affordable money, and lots for the next generation of enthusiasts to get their teeth into. You just need to know where to look.

Author
Discussion

CDP

Original Poster:

7,454 posts

253 months

Sunday 13th May 2018
quotequote all
I won't say it's scraping the barrel but stuff like the 323 are just old cars.

Surely if that's the ethos looking to the 90's and early 2000's is the way to go?

The E46 is a stunning car, especially in coupe form. They're going for peanuts at the moment.

The last of the steel XJs represent quite a steal.

The plethora of small 2 seat sports cars (many at shed money) demonstrate in many respects this is the golden period for cheap fun cars.

MK3 MR2 anybody? MG TF? MK5 Golf GTI?

406dogvan

5,326 posts

264 months

Sunday 13th May 2018
quotequote all
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)

I think their lack of value relates to there still being a lot around and also that they appealed to the attention-deficit reality-TV folks who just HAVE to have the latest YAH - I'd put a couple into a barn if I had a barn, with a pile of electronics modules - I might even drive one from time-to-time ;0

p.s. the MGF/MGTF will never be a proper classic but there are some WEIRD folks who'll pay money for one anyway. We have 2-3 which visit for work from time-to-time - the later 'shipped from China' ones, mint nick, almost never used - I'd imagine they're IMPOSSIBLE to sell for anything like their owners concept of value.

Edited by 406dogvan on Sunday 13th May 13:19

skylarking808

778 posts

85 months

Sunday 13th May 2018
quotequote all
I am so glad I got to enjoy some great 80s/90s cars over the last ten years but I fear despite a couple of cheapish cars mentioned in the article prices are still out of reach of young and not so young enthusiasts.

I mean a four door E30 is cool, but I struggled to sell a rare decent E30 318is for a £1500 a few years ago; now try and find a decent one.

Had a couple of Scirocco GTX's but those not falling apart are now are silly money. There are some leftfield choices out there, but the iconic cult performance cars of that era are now heading into collectors only territory. Sad those of us on a normal wage have to consider a Mazda 323 as a modern classic.


s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Sunday 13th May 2018
quotequote all
306 GTI-6 or ST170 for something a few years newer but still 2 decades old

406dogvan

5,326 posts

264 months

Sunday 13th May 2018
quotequote all
The GTI-6 has the great combo of being a decent hot-hatch on a solid/reliable platform but a LOT have been ruined by the BarryBoys and 306 parts are starting to become harder-to-find generally (there's no many left to scrap)

The ST170 just isn't special enough to justify throwing money into it IMO - they didn't sell well so values are going up but who desires the ST170!?

The Mk2 STs are definately worth considering tho - prices ALL OVER THE PLACE - find one which isn't worn-out or molested and the owner isn't in dreamland on price and you'll have a future classic (5 cyls for the win!)

mersontheperson

700 posts

164 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
If anyone is looking for an interesting, fun, reliable starter classic, they should look east to Japanese auctions.

I have bought two great cars for almost nothing, and have been so pleased with both. Who wouldn’t want a Legnum VR4 with 20,000 km on the clock, in perfect condition for 1000 USD, add another 2000 for shipping taxes and registration and you can’t get better bang for your buck

Tim_D

302 posts

151 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
I'm not sure I'd class any of the cars in the article classics - to me they're just old cars but I appreciate it's subjective. The Mazda 323 looks fun but there's a lot of other cars I'd rather spend £4.5k on first.

Whilst Peugeot 205 GTis have certainly appreciated in recent years, you can still get a useable car from around £4k so this is probably the route I'd go down.

e30m3Mark

16,205 posts

172 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
I looked after the Mazda press fleet when the 323 4x4 was new and they were rare then, let alone 30 years later! Given the popularity of all things JDM I would say £4.5k is a pretty shrewd investment at that money. They were only about 180bhp but 220+ was easily achieved and they're not exactly heavy. They were the poor mans Intergrale. This one looks pretty mint and I doubt there are many better out there?

I've never really thought more door E30 deserved the hate they get and I suppose they're about the cheapest way into an E30 nowadays. They still look way better than most modern stuff and the 325i sounds and goes just as well as its 2 door brethren.

mooseracer

1,843 posts

169 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
Yep that 323 has got to be proper rare.

Clean early mx5 would be my pick of that bunch.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
e30m3Mark said:
I looked after the Mazda press fleet when the 323 4x4 was new and they were rare then, let alone 30 years later! Given the popularity of all things JDM I would say £4.5k is a pretty shrewd investment at that money.

.
Didn't realise you did that Mark - one of my close friends worked for Mazda Rally Team ( chief spanner guy ) when Salonen used to rally them

They were just too underpowerd compared to the other cars in late 80s

H20DJY

189 posts

92 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)

I think their lack of value relates to there still being a lot around and also that they appealed to the attention-deficit reality-TV folks who just HAVE to have the latest YAH - I'd put a couple into a barn if I had a barn, with a pile of electronics modules - I might even drive one from time-to-time ;0

Edited by 406dogvan on Sunday 13th May 13:19
I couldn't agree more. The mk1 TT will rise in value and are great cars if you ask me.

1430

81 posts

116 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
H20DJY said:
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)

I think their lack of value relates to there still being a lot around and also that they appealed to the attention-deficit reality-TV folks who just HAVE to have the latest YAH - I'd put a couple into a barn if I had a barn, with a pile of electronics modules - I might even drive one from time-to-time ;0

Edited by 406dogvan on Sunday 13th May 13:19
I couldn't agree more. The mk1 TT will rise in value and are great cars if you ask me.
The TT is a hideous looking little hairdressers car...
What is it that would make them go up in value?
rare - no
motorsport history - no
manufacturer doesn't offer a modern alternative - no
anything interesting about them - no
I can't think of any redeeming features, It must be a contender for ugliest production car ever made.

CDP

Original Poster:

7,454 posts

253 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)

I think their lack of value relates to there still being a lot around and also that they appealed to the attention-deficit reality-TV folks who just HAVE to have the latest YAH - I'd put a couple into a barn if I had a barn, with a pile of electronics modules - I might even drive one from time-to-time ;0

p.s. the MGF/MGTF will never be a proper classic but there are some WEIRD folks who'll pay money for one anyway. We have 2-3 which visit for work from time-to-time - the later 'shipped from China' ones, mint nick, almost never used - I'd imagine they're IMPOSSIBLE to sell for anything like their owners concept of value.

Edited by 406dogvan on Sunday 13th May 13:19
I agree on the TT. Disagree on the MG TF because I have one but may be considered weird.

My wife had a MK1 TT. A very stylish car but when it came to fun the MG ran rings around it.

If you count the TT Coupe as a mini GT it's an awesome car. We did a couple of thousand miles around Scotland a few summers back and it was good to drive. 7 10ths on unknown roads, sometimes wet, the Quattro worked pretty well.

The Audi has also been round Cadwell Park where it wasn't so good, conversely up Prescot the little TF was very good indeed.

We test drove a convertible TT; it was an awful wobbly thing...

I forgot the BMW Zs - with a six under the bonnet they make a lot of future classic sense...


406dogvan

5,326 posts

264 months

Monday 14th May 2018
quotequote all
I'd argue the Mk1 TT is a design classic - SO many cars copied bits of it's exterior/interior detailing...

They're also a decent drive - in their day the steering/gearshift/handling was a bit numb but compared to modern cars they feel like go-karts!

They're reasonably reliable too - at-least the earlier cars avoid the worst of the electronic nightmares which make other 00s VAG products so much 'fun' to own
"Did you hear the one about the 05 VW with no fault codes? Turns out it's fault code memory was faulty..."

A lot of people reading this probably think Audi has been the aspirational car-of-choice forever but before the TT that car was a BMW - Audi were weirdo Volkswagens then but Audi now dominates that market to the point people would buy S-Line toilet roll holders if they were available...


p.s. a TT and and MGF aren't remotely comparable - they may have overlapped (as the 405 and Mondeo did) but they are cars from different eras aimed at different people (coupe against sportscar)

p.p.s. which reminds me - TT COUPEs - not the MUCH less desireable Roadsters...


Edited by 406dogvan on Monday 14th May 22:39

culpz

4,881 posts

111 months

Tuesday 15th May 2018
quotequote all
That blue MK1 MX5 is really well priced. I assumed it would be up for more like 5k. Looks really clean and has some tasteful mods too.

CDP

Original Poster:

7,454 posts

253 months

Tuesday 15th May 2018
quotequote all
406dogvan said:
I
p.s. a TT and and MGF aren't remotely comparable - they may have overlapped (as the 405 and Mondeo did) but they are cars from different eras aimed at different people (coupe against sportscar)

p.p.s. which reminds me - TT COUPEs - not the MUCH less desireable Roadsters...


Edited by 406dogvan on Monday 14th May 22:39
No the TT was significantly more expensive and when it comes to the fit and finish really feels it. However (on the right tyres) the MG can out turn, out steer, out brake and out corner it. I've driven them both up to and over the limit. The NA engine has nowhere near the power but makes up in throttle response.

I'm sure you're aware the MG TF and MGF while looking similar have a number of significant differences which makes them very different in character. Also they have many bushes which wear, if not in good condition you feel it. When it comes to the chassis the little Audi is quite a bit cruder but tougher.




s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Tuesday 15th May 2018
quotequote all
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)
When the TT first came out the press were quite surprised at how good the handling was.

CAR mag put it top of the affordable cars they reviewed in 99 and got very good write-ups in the other big mags.

They modded it in response to some customer complaints and it lost its edge

CDP

Original Poster:

7,454 posts

253 months

Wednesday 16th May 2018
quotequote all
s m said:
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)
When the TT first came out the press were quite surprised at how good the handling was.

CAR mag put it top of the affordable cars they reviewed in 99 and got very good write-ups in the other big mags.

They modded it in response to some customer complaints and it lost its edge
As I understand it the high speed stability revisions nobbled it. Around Cadwell Park it was understeer all the way, yes if you _REALLY_ trail brake into corners you can just get it to turn in but it's just not happy. At normal road speeds it's a heck of a lot better but still numb - the drop top is far worse and feels like it's made of jelly.

It is in all other respects an excellent car, well built, easy to live with and lovely to look at or sit in. They really do feel expensive and well built, putting stuff like the BMWs, Mercs etc in the shade.

In a few years MK1 TTs will be full on classics and people will find it amazing that good ones were so cheap...


s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Wednesday 16th May 2018
quotequote all
CDP said:
s m said:
406dogvan said:
I think the current bargain no-one seems interested in is the Mk1 TT - it's the car which revolutionized Audi/changed the aspirations of the "I borrowed my way into the middle-class" drones who swarm in their 'Hallmark Catalog' housing estates - I've seen tidy examples sell under £600 and they're not bad to keep/drive reasonably well (they weren't that dynamic in-period but they are razor-sharp by modern car standards)
When the TT first came out the press were quite surprised at how good the handling was.

CAR mag put it top of the affordable cars they reviewed in 99 and got very good write-ups in the other big mags.

They modded it in response to some customer complaints and it lost its edge
As I understand it the high speed stability revisions nobbled it. Around Cadwell Park it was understeer all the way, yes if you _REALLY_ trail brake into corners you can just get it to turn in but it's just not happy. At normal road speeds it's a heck of a lot better but still numb - the drop top is far worse and feels like it's made of jelly.

It is in all other respects an excellent car, well built, easy to live with and lovely to look at or sit in. They really do feel expensive and well built, putting stuff like the BMWs, Mercs etc in the shade.

In a few years MK1 TTs will be full on classics and people will find it amazing that good ones were so cheap...
I agree with you - the shape of them, the performance, the interior - I think will appeal to a a lot of people as a useable classic in a few years. After all, it's 20 years old now!

Often wonder if there's any left un-modded ( for the high speed handlng ) still running around or if any people have tried to 'revert' theirs

GiveItSomeWellie

3,006 posts

195 months

Wednesday 16th May 2018
quotequote all
s m said:
Often wonder if there's any left un-modded ( for the high speed handlng ) still running around or if any people have tried to 'revert' theirs
As a child I remember someone in my parents village getting one of the first TTs (was LHD) which never had the spoiler from new, it never had one put on in all the time I saw it. It moved away around a year ago, still without a spoiler.