RE: Hybrid horsepower: Prior Convictions
Friday 22nd June 2018
Good news. M'colleagues on HMS Autocar report that Lamborghini will retain naturally aspirated engines, rather than switching to turbocharged ones.
Prior Convictions: Hybrid horsepower
The next generation of Lamborghinis will almost certainly be hybrid, and that's good news...
Well, on its sports cars, at least. We'll overlook the Urus SUV for now, a vehicle which, um, serves the purpose for which it was created.
But when the Huracan and Aventador - the staple supercars in Lamborghini's range - are replaced, they'll get hybrid electric assistance rather than turbochargers to boost their performance and, more pertinently, efficiency.
Good news? I think so.
There are things about turbochargers that are great, obviously: they add specific power and can enhance efficiency.
But they add weight, they add complexity, they add a need for additional cooling capacity, which adds more weight again. And beyond that, they alter the way an engine responds: they want time to spool, they tend to rev lower, and they change the sheer character of the way torque is delivered, which, along with their muffling qualities, also affects the noise engines make.
To a lesser or greater extent, all of that is true on all of today's turbocharged cars.
The Ferrari 488 Pista's 3.9-litre twin-turbo V8 is terrific; Ferrari talks about 'zero turbo lag' and limiting torque slightly in lower gears at lower revs, to keep a naturally-aspirated feel: you get more as revs rise.
It is, for me, the best turbocharged engine in production. (Followed by, cripes, probably AMG's, Porsche's, McLaren's, then the rest.) In third gear, at 2,000rpm, Ferrari says the Pista's V8 wants 0.8 seconds from full throttle before it is delivering its peak output. The naturally aspirated 458 Italia, meanwhile, wanted 0.6.
Which is not, admittedly, much difference. But it's one you feel: not when planting your foot to the floor and waiting the extra 0.2 seconds for the last ounce of torque (at which point, in the turbo, there'll be much, much more of it, too). No, you feel it more subtly, in general driving: in a razor sharp naturally aspirated car like a Porsche 911 GT3 RS or a 458 Italia or a Huracan, little throttle pushes just beget a quicker transient response.
Hence Lamborghini's naturally-aspirated V10 (Huracan) and V12 (Aventador) engines are currently two of the finest in production, and why Lamborghini would like it to stay that way, by adding electric assistance rather than blowers.
Hybrids have their downsides too, clearly. Batteries and motors are not weight-free, either. An issue McLaren is also struggling with for its mooted electric hypercar, is that battery research is being directed towards increasing energy-density, which is good for providing range, rather than power-density, which is good for providing... power.
So there's work to be done, though that is good news in itself, because if it's done for these tow manufacturers, it's available to others.
Lamborghini's technical director, Maurizio Reggiani, told me that the day the company didn't make a V12 any more would be a day he didn't work at Lamborghini any more. And I like that Lamborghini is sticking to this principle, even though it is a part of the ever more homogenous Volkswagen group. Now, about the next-generation 911 GT3...
Discussion
Hang on.
How much more does a turbo (inducing inter cooler & pipe work, modified manifolds and cooling capacity) weigh, Vs an electric motor, (batteries, charge controllers and cooling as well as possible modifications to transmission depending on how the two power sources are integrated into the drive train)?
I suspect a turbo will be a small fraction of the weight.
How much more does a turbo (inducing inter cooler & pipe work, modified manifolds and cooling capacity) weigh, Vs an electric motor, (batteries, charge controllers and cooling as well as possible modifications to transmission depending on how the two power sources are integrated into the drive train)?
I suspect a turbo will be a small fraction of the weight.
Cambs_Stuart said:
Hang on.
How much more does a turbo (inducing inter cooler & pipe work, modified manifolds and cooling capacity) weigh, Vs an electric motor, (batteries, charge controllers and cooling as well as possible modifications to transmission depending on how the two power sources are integrated into the drive train)?
I suspect a turbo will be a small fraction of the weight.
My thoughts exactly! Turbos are really one of the most simple devices - blow gas out through the turbine and use the energy extracted to push air into the intake. To say "they add weight, they add complexity, they add a need for additional cooling capacity, which adds more weight again" and then cite a hybrid as an alternative is rather odd.How much more does a turbo (inducing inter cooler & pipe work, modified manifolds and cooling capacity) weigh, Vs an electric motor, (batteries, charge controllers and cooling as well as possible modifications to transmission depending on how the two power sources are integrated into the drive train)?
I suspect a turbo will be a small fraction of the weight.
The performance trade off makes a lot more sense as an argument, but that benefit is fighting cost, weight and complexity IMO.
Let's be honest though, hybrid technology is just a stepping stone for easing us into full EV's. I'm know there's more to it than that and the electric technology does have it's own benefits when paired with the ICE. Gradual steps and all that, as apposed to a sudden jump into the unknown.
This article just further proves why I dislike the standard journalistic response to turbocharging. I even wrote a ranting soapbox piece about it for another motoring website a few months ago. Why is the best turbocharged engine one which doesn't feel turbocharged? Why has someone decided that normally aspirated engines MUST be better than forced induction ones? It's utter nonsense. Some of the most thrilling cars ever created feature turbocharged engines which are laggy, flawed and, quite frankly, f
king brilliant.
This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
king brilliant.This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
How cool would it be if ... An extreme car maker like Lamborghini would create a plug in hybrid, that you as the user could 'tune' to your liking.
Speculative: Say, 100 KG of batteries would provide 300 extra BHP
But you as the user could remove batteries through a simple flap down to 10 or 20 KG of batteries.
For all the tests, it would be an energy efficient car, but by removing the majority of weight to one's liking, you would still have an 'analogue' supercar with a little bit of extra hybrid power helping low in the rev-range.
Speculative: Say, 100 KG of batteries would provide 300 extra BHP
But you as the user could remove batteries through a simple flap down to 10 or 20 KG of batteries.
For all the tests, it would be an energy efficient car, but by removing the majority of weight to one's liking, you would still have an 'analogue' supercar with a little bit of extra hybrid power helping low in the rev-range.
I agree with what the other posters have said, but can't help but to feel that this paves the way for Lamborghinis with fewer cylinders.
I can't see them making a smaller-displacement V12 and making up the extra with hybrid power.
I know there have been Lambos with less than a V10
(IIRC the Jalpa was a V8), but feel they'd lose a bit of their USP if they went down to an 8 or worse still, a 6.
I can't see them making a smaller-displacement V12 and making up the extra with hybrid power.
I know there have been Lambos with less than a V10
(IIRC the Jalpa was a V8), but feel they'd lose a bit of their USP if they went down to an 8 or worse still, a 6.
I genuinely love the fact that Lambo are sticking their neck out for NA engines! I'm not a huge fan of turbo charging, especially in the more modern cars.
I tried many cars before buying my civic and all the turbo ones just lacked a bit of excitement. They were fast, but they lacked any real engagement as the performance was so accessible at all times. I like in my Civic that for an overtake I have to drop a couple of cogs and blip the accelerator to match the revs before I properly go for it on the loud pedal, makes me feel more integrated with the experience! It's really satisfying to get that rev match just right so you don't feel a lurch as the lower gear slots in and you scream off towards the red line!
I've also had an old school 2.3 I4 NA with ~160bhp and a 1.4 I4 turbo with ~170bhp. I bought the 1.4 directly after the 2.3 as it was costing me too much in tax and fuel, but the 1.4 wasn't that much better on fuel. It's worse on MPG compared to my Civic, and that has 200(ish) bhp at the top.
I tried many cars before buying my civic and all the turbo ones just lacked a bit of excitement. They were fast, but they lacked any real engagement as the performance was so accessible at all times. I like in my Civic that for an overtake I have to drop a couple of cogs and blip the accelerator to match the revs before I properly go for it on the loud pedal, makes me feel more integrated with the experience! It's really satisfying to get that rev match just right so you don't feel a lurch as the lower gear slots in and you scream off towards the red line!
I've also had an old school 2.3 I4 NA with ~160bhp and a 1.4 I4 turbo with ~170bhp. I bought the 1.4 directly after the 2.3 as it was costing me too much in tax and fuel, but the 1.4 wasn't that much better on fuel. It's worse on MPG compared to my Civic, and that has 200(ish) bhp at the top.
Long live the naturally aspirated engine even if its a hybrid.
The current V10 engine is a peach but getting more power through hybrid technology will have a trade off in terms of extra weight. With the 4 WD system the huracan is not exactly light at the moment so any extra weight will be felt
Maybe the Performante will be Lamborghini's equivalent of Ferrari's 458 Speciale and a future classic with that sublime N/A V10
The current V10 engine is a peach but getting more power through hybrid technology will have a trade off in terms of extra weight. With the 4 WD system the huracan is not exactly light at the moment so any extra weight will be felt
Maybe the Performante will be Lamborghini's equivalent of Ferrari's 458 Speciale and a future classic with that sublime N/A V10
RamboLambo said:
The current V10 engine is a peach but getting more power through hybrid technology will have a trade off in terms of extra weight. With the 4 WD system the huracan is not exactly light at the moment so any extra weight will be felt
Could they not look to have a smaller, lighter engine to begin with knowing that any loss in bhp by doing so could quickly be made up again by the electrical power? Development cost of new engines may prohibit it but they have got plenty of backing these days. culpz said:
Let's be honest though, hybrid technology is just a stepping stone for easing us into full EV's. I'm know there's more to it than that and the electric technology does have it's own benefits when paired with the ICE. Gradual steps and all that, as apposed to a sudden jump into the unknown.
As hybrid driver; Definitely for the daily drives.gigglebug said:
Could they not look to have a smaller, lighter engine to begin with knowing that any loss in bhp by doing so could quickly be made up again by the electrical power? Development cost of new engines may prohibit it but they have got plenty of backing these days.
there's maybe one development cycle left for ICE; Germany is stopping production of the ICE in 2030:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ba...
since Lambo is a VAG company, I doubt they will be doing much development of a completely new engine, just refining what they have, and adding some hybrid power.
Jon_S_Rally said:
This article just further proves why I dislike the standard journalistic response to turbocharging. I even wrote a ranting soapbox piece about it for another motoring website a few months ago. Why is the best turbocharged engine one which doesn't feel turbocharged? Why has someone decided that normally aspirated engines MUST be better than forced induction ones? It's utter nonsense. Some of the most thrilling cars ever created feature turbocharged engines which are laggy, flawed and, quite frankly, fking brilliant.
This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
king brilliant.This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
Couldn't agree more.
In the 80's/90's turbos had entirely the opposite reputation and were the sign of a 'cool' car for kids of my generation.
Turbo lag is a huge amount of fun. Put your foot down you get the spooling noise before the car goes from accelerating eagerly into warp mode, angry hissing from the blow-off valves when you downshift, keeping the revs high enough to keep the turbo working hard.
Spent the day hooning around Wales in my sequential turbo RX7, it was made all the more fun by the fact the car is built around the character of the turbo setup. I've had an induction kit fitted with the housings removed to make all those fantastic noises even louder.
You also get to have another gauge which is far more exciting to watch than any battery life indicator, or any other gauge you might ever fit in a car for that matter
I've felt exactly the same about both the character of turbo's being tuned out of cars and the coverage they have been receiving from virtually every publication I read. Thanks for putting your thoughts down so eloquently.
Can you link to the article you wrote please?
worth noting that adding low rpm torque by pressure charging is the same as adding low rpm torque by electrification, both have the same effect in making the engine feel less peaky.
And of course these days with electronic throttles and boost controls you can make a turbo engine feel a lot like an N/A engine by not adding lots of torque at low speed. Of course, that used to affect performance (more boost = more torque = more power (at any particular rpm), but these days when super cars are now so powerful they are traction limited most of the time, you can trade off a bit of low rpm torque for some high rpm power with significantly slowing the car down....
And of course these days with electronic throttles and boost controls you can make a turbo engine feel a lot like an N/A engine by not adding lots of torque at low speed. Of course, that used to affect performance (more boost = more torque = more power (at any particular rpm), but these days when super cars are now so powerful they are traction limited most of the time, you can trade off a bit of low rpm torque for some high rpm power with significantly slowing the car down....
EXTRA: The big difference between electric assistance and turbo charging is that elect assist is bi-directional, therefore the system can provide a braking torque. If the eMachine is coupled to the crank, this means you can pretty much entirely negate engine inertia, meaning lighting fast gear shifts! (because you slow the engine down during upshifts with the eMachine)
CountZero23 said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
This article just further proves why I dislike the standard journalistic response to turbocharging. I even wrote a ranting soapbox piece about it for another motoring website a few months ago. Why is the best turbocharged engine one which doesn't feel turbocharged? Why has someone decided that normally aspirated engines MUST be better than forced induction ones? It's utter nonsense. Some of the most thrilling cars ever created feature turbocharged engines which are laggy, flawed and, quite frankly, fking brilliant.
This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
king brilliant.This obsession with trying to make turbocharged cars feel normally aspirated has, in most cases, simply left us with cars that feel flat and actually pretty dull. No excitement from the boost building, followed by the shove that keeps you pinned back into your seat all the way to the redline, but also no thrill as the revs rise to a crisp, wailing crescendo in your normally aspirated motor. Apart from a few exceptional cases (which generally seem to beyond the budgets of most people), modern engines seem to be giving us the WORST of both worlds when it comes to engine-based excitement.
A Sierra Cosworth or Lancia Integrale are thrilling because of the flaws that come with turbochargers, along with the associated whooshes and hisses, while an Alfa V6 or M5 V10 offer a different kind of thrill by requiring a few more revs but having great throttle response and that crisp free-revving feel.
Yes modern engines are more efficient, yes they're more effective, yes they're easier to live with, but most of them are dull as dishwater. I genuinely can't get my head around why so many journos obsess over eliminating everything that is exciting about turbocharged cars.
I'm glad Lamborghini are sticking with normal aspiration, it's part of their signature really. Any kind of electrification will always divide opinion though.
Couldn't agree more.
In the 80's/90's turbos had entirely the opposite reputation and were the sign of a 'cool' car for kids of my generation.
Turbo lag is a huge amount of fun. Put your foot down you get the spooling noise before the car goes from accelerating eagerly into warp mode, angry hissing from the blow-off valves when you downshift, keeping the revs high enough to keep the turbo working hard.
Spent the day hooning around Wales in my sequential turbo RX7, it was made all the more fun by the fact the car is built around the character of the turbo setup. I've had an induction kit fitted with the housings removed to make all those fantastic noises even louder.
You also get to have another gauge which is far more exciting to watch than any battery life indicator, or any other gauge you might ever fit in a car for that matter
I've felt exactly the same about both the character of turbo's being tuned out of cars and the coverage they have been receiving from virtually every publication I read. Thanks for putting your thoughts down so eloquently.
Can you link to the article you wrote please?
Having said that, all engines on sale today suffer from the same problem - they're too good, and as a result they're bland.
For Lamborghini, I get the issue, and I understand the preference for electric over turbo.. But ultimately I just wish they'd re-imagine what a mid engined supercar should be, and chop 400kgs out of it.
You do realise that most mid engined supercars these days are popular because they're also very useable? Strip 400kgs out of a Huracan and you'll be left with something that'd be incredibly tiresome after not very long, I'm sure.
Also, how would you strip 400kgs out of a Huracan anyway? Maybe put your ideas forward to VW, one of the largest car manufacturers in the world, and see what they say. Who knows, you might even get some money out of it
Also, how would you strip 400kgs out of a Huracan anyway? Maybe put your ideas forward to VW, one of the largest car manufacturers in the world, and see what they say. Who knows, you might even get some money out of it
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