Tuesday 23rd October 2018

Supra VLN race car... goes racing

Do they count as spy shots if it's racing at the Nordschleife?

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We make no apologies for featuring more Toyota Supra pictures on PH, chiefly because it's a car we're all jolly excited about. Crucially too this racing car, believe it or not, reveals a few more details about the production version.

Look at that interior pic; it shows far more than has been seen thus far of the cabin, and specifically a very strong BMW influence. The ventilation controls, preset buttons, gear selector and iDrive dial (it's under the gloves) all look identical to those seen in numerous production BMWs; heck, even the stalks are carried over. But then Toyota was hardly likely to do different, was it? Using BMW parts saves on the cost and guarantees a level of quality and usability that buyers will expect at £50k, plus the fierce response to the GT86 driving environment may well have put Toyota off attempting its own again.

The Supra was competing in the SP8T class of the VLN over the weekend, where it was racing against an M235i Racing. And came second. Still, it completed a best lap of 9:28.164 (at an average speed of 154.337km/h), and finishing will be as important as anything with the car's final durability testing presumably now taking place.

Handily the weather could hardly have been better for taking pictures of a car nobody expected to see, autumn sunshine showing off the Supra in the best light. The disguise is still pretty thorough, however, as in the prototype drive, so there remain blanks to be filled in. It's interesting to note though just how pronounced the double-bubble roof is, how relatively compact it seems on track, and also how good the Supra looks when it's lowered on some O.Z Racing multispoke wheels. No doubt the tuning companies are already thinking similar, too...

With the roadgoing car due for reveal in January, and a more serious racing version previewed a few months back at Geneva, hopefully this is just the beginning for a new generation of motorsport Supras. Goodness knows there's some legacy to live up to.

[Images: S.Baldauf/S.B.Medien]

[3yardy3]

I absolutely love the fact cars like this are still being manufactured and sold in big numbers, I absolutely hate the fact there is no manual option...

I had a 335i DCT and although it was a fantastic and clever gearbox it just wasn't the same... fingers crossed they release a limited edition manual in a year or two... one can only hope.

[BFleming]

Of the three engine options (20i / 30i / 40i) there is no manual box option - but interestingly the sibling entry level Z4 will have a 6 speed manual box option.
I assume the one (or more?) hooning around the Nurburgring is the 40i. It must be the most seen/photographed 'prototype' ever. Hell I've even seen it (pic below). Just reveal it already.

Edited by BFleming on Tuesday 23 October 12:32

[havoc]

The original Supra duked it out with GT-Rs, 911s and NSXs, both in the showrooms and on track.

This one...came second in a scrap with a 2-series.

Hmmm...

[mikey P 500]

I agree this might be a nice sports car (like a z4 coupe is) but it's not the best use of the supra name. A BMW 140 or 240 will likely offer the same performance but with more practically, maybe even weigh less, certainly cost less, going to hard to sell these on looks alone. Having the supra beaten by the 235i suggests they haven't significantly improved on BMW chassis.

[fieldmau5]

havoc said:

The original Supra duked it out with GT-Rs, 911s and NSXs, both in the showrooms and on track.

This one...came second in a scrap with a 2-series.

Hmmm...

The original Supra was just a big engined Celica.

[NJ72]

havoc said:

The original Supra duked it out with GT-Rs, 911s and NSXs, both in the showrooms and on track.

This one...came second in a scrap with a 2-series.

Hmmm...

Moot point really when it's in a race class which is probably restricted. And that's not just 'a 2-series' it's an M235i Racing. That's like saying 'My Porsche lost to a Citroen C3 WRC car, what's up with that?!'

[CousinDupree]

fieldmau5 said:

The original Supra was just a big engined Celica.

Yup and duked it out with Capri's and Cavaliers.

[TwinExit]

NJ72 said:

havoc said:

The original Supra duked it out with GT-Rs, 911s and NSXs, both in the showrooms and on track.

This one...came second in a scrap with a 2-series.

Hmmm...

Moot point really when it's in a race class which is probably restricted. And that's not just 'a 2-series' it's an M235i Racing. That's like saying 'My Porsche lost to a Citroen C3 WRC car, what's up with that?!'

The point is the MKIV Supra at launch on the road competed with Porsche 911, the 928, Ferrari entry level cars, and with GT2 class racing cars in its JGTC guise. It was a highly capable platform and Toyota aimed big without making the too car out of reach price wise.

The new one is spun from a platform sharing program with BMW, and it's obvious cost saving and mid-level market underpinnings has already exposed the car to be a performance flop against today's competition.

[MB140]

At £50k plus no thanks. I can think of 1/2 a dozen cars I would rather have.

[Ved]

MB140 said:

At £50k plus no thanks. I can think of 1/2 a dozen cars I would rather have.

Which other non-4pot 2 seater sports cars would you have instead?

[MB140]

Ved said:

MB140 said:

At £50k plus no thanks. I can think of 1/2 a dozen cars I would rather have.

Which other non-4pot 2 seater sports cars would you have instead?

I never mentioned 2 seat sports car. I just said at £50k I can think of better things.

BMW m2
Cayman
New m140i when it comes out next year
Rs3
A45 amg
Lotus Evora S

All in my opinion what I would rather spend £50k on. I just think at that price it’s a very expensive BMW Z4 with a Toyota body on it. Sorry I’m just not a fan of it. Maybe when it’s in a decent colour instead of the pattern stuff it’s in right now I might change my mind.

Again though all just my opinion.

Going more left field.
TVR Tuscan s / Tamora / 350
Exile 350 sport
Porsche 911
Alfa quadragiliofoglpiplioliploi or however it’s spelt.
Maserati grandtourisma bloody lovely looking and sounding thing.

I realise we’re talking new vs old in some cases but if I had £50k to spend these are where my money would go.

Like someone else has said. I so wish it had a fire breathing 500 bhp engine and good looks to go with it (maybe an aero version like the gt86).

Edited by MB140 on Tuesday 23 October 16:10

[huwdm]

Am I right in thinking it is a 2 seater. If so not really a Supra for me as I believe all the others have been 2+2's.

[Gotcha2]

If I read that correctly, it said an M235i R - https://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/topics/season-20...

So a race car beats a road car...... The B58 is the replacement for the N55 but that is about as close as it gets and there is a M240i R out now too, so perhaps that would have been a closer comparison. Needless to say perhaps but the 240R is quicker than the 235R.

I for one are looking forward to seeing it in the flesh the B58 is a peach of an engine and very easily tuned. If it looks half as nice as the concept cars, I might be tempted

[Swole]

I think people are missing the reason why the original Supra (2JZ) appealed so much and why people have such high expectations for this one.The reason it is a legend is due to its engine tune-ability. Without some decent work, it was never a real track hero, more a GT but what you could do with it in near enough straight lines with a little engine work was insane. 500HP was easily broken for not a lot of money, which for the day was supercar beating territory.

This new Supra is going in at the same level as the old one. Like the old one, in standard form it probably won't be great but it will be good, and if the manufacturers have learnt anything they will have left loads of room for tuning. What the manufacturers haven't left will be exploited by the aftermarket, and we may see some BIG tuning options for the BMW N55 engine (or whatever variant it is now). Big turbo kits have been around for a while already so potential is for it to get better, especially as the car depreciates and falls into the hands of those likely to dabble outside of warranty.

What really remains to be seen is how it looks. I personally would have loved it to look like the FT-1...but it won't.

Edited by Swole on Tuesday 23 October 16:42

[TwinExit]

Swole said:

I think people are missing the reason why the original Supra (2JZ) appealed so much and why people have such high expectations for this one.The reason it is a legend is due to its engine tune-ability. Without some decent work, it was never a real track hero, more a GT but what you could do with it in near enough straight lines with a little engine work was insane. 500HP was easily broken for not a lot of money, which for the day was supercar beating territory.

This new Supra is going in at the same level as the old one. Like the old one, in standard form it probably won't be great but it will be good, and if the manufacturers have learnt anything they will have left loads of room for tuning. What the manufacturers haven't left will be exploited by the aftermarket, and we may see some BIG tuning options for the BMW N55 engine (or whatever variant it is now). Big turbo kits have been around for a while already so potential is for it to get better, especially as the car depreciates and falls into the hands of those likely to dabble outside of warranty.

What really remains to be seen is how it looks. I personally would have loved it to look like the FT-1...but it won't.

Edited by Swole on Tuesday 23 October 16:42

The previous Supra was/is a capable car where handling was concerned too, it's just too many owners at the time wanted bigger wheels, lower riding suspension and those with Japanese grey imports overspun their ceramic turbos and ruined any balance the standard car had.

In tuned form, they made great motorway/highway weapons back in the late 90's and 2000's before the rest of the world caught up with turbocharging and DCTs.

In today's climate, a 3.0 litre motor is not enough unless you like lots of turbo lag and run on ethanol fuel. The highest performing cars you'll find on the road have motors within the 3.8 - 6.0+ litre class, 600-1500 BHP with ordinary pump fuel and minimal lag.

So not only is the new Supra undergunned in standard form, it's aftermarket potential is stifled by the relatively small displacement petrol engine.

[juicy sushi]

I find the comments about it not being like "the original" really silly.

the Mk.IV was not "the original". The original was, as someone else mentioned, a Celica coupe with a slightly bigger engine.

Nor was "the original" operating in the same market. It was when adjusted for inflation, a fair chunk more expensive than this one. This isn't the tuning monster of the last one. Boo hoo. The last one didn't sell well enough to be worth following up on for a quarter of a century. Toyota doesn't have a bubble economy and buckets of cash to throw at vanity products anymore.

The current car seems to fit pretty damn well into its actual target market (50k sports coupes). For those whinging that it doesn't offer 7 million horsepower to compete against Lamborghinis perhaps they should try and build cars for a living and see how they get on.

Edited by juicy sushi on Tuesday 23 October 17:46

[Mackofthejungle]

I really don't get the interest around it.

Big retirees coupe from the 90s, which was widely joked about at the time (why have one when you could get a TVR for goodness sake - a proper sports car). Had a spot in a dodgy film which made it a bit famous, and now 15 years later a rebadged BMW is coming out. It's just so uninspiring.

I'm sure it'll be half-way decent, because BMWs are usually halfway decent, but what happened? I love the GT86, as flawed as it is. I love that it's cheap and relatively slow. But I don't get why they don't just go full on with it. V6, built in rollcage, carbon panels, 50 grand. There's your Supra, or at least what people think a Supra is/was/should be. This thing they're putting out is a fashion piece. "I own a new Supra". Something to talk about rather than actually enjoy. If any car appears in more YouTube videos over 2019 I'll be amazed.

[BFleming]

I think Toyota's biggest mistake here has to be calling the car 'Supra'. The amount of time wasted on comparisons to 'Mark IV's' or whatever has got to be infuriating. It is for me as a reader. I know next to nothing about the older Supras, having never had any desire to own one / drive one. I don't think they were even that nice to look at (specifically the late 80's versions). I'm sure they went well & all that, but they have no special attraction for me. Maybe that puts me in the envious position of being able to take this one for what it is, not what the (overstyled but possibly historic) badge says!

[Ursicles]

Reading what the head of Toyota has been saying, they are providing a margarita pizza, and expecting tuners to go wild with the toppings.

So much so that several big tuners are being given the car early to develop packages for it before it's even launched!

It's reckoned to be about 350bhp, with a bit of tuner magic I'd say 500bhp is easy - and then it's a weapon.

Will just have to see when mine arrives in September 2019

[V10Ace]

Ursicles said:

Reading what the head of Toyota has been saying, they are providing a margarita pizza, and expecting tuners to go wild with the toppings.

So much so that several big tuners are being given the car early to develop packages for it before it's even launched!

It's reckoned to be about 350bhp, with a bit of tuner magic I'd say 500bhp is easy - and then it's a weapon.

Will just have to see when mine arrives in September 2019

This is the part that make's sense.... The UK just doesn't get it, just like the GT86 was supposed to be, a great base that you configure your way with help from the aftermarket...