DVLA – Body change – V5 – Q plate?

DVLA – Body change – V5 – Q plate?

Author
Discussion

Chad speed

Original Poster:

438 posts

196 months

Monday 11th March 2019
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Can anyone offer any clarification on the current situation with the DVLA and cars that have had a body change? I’m particularly interested in cars with a separate chassis where all major components are original and retained but the body has been changed.

It seems to be the case, but is unclear on the DVLA website that even pre-war cars, where body changes were common in the day, may lose their original registration mark to be replaced by a Q plate if the modification was done less than 30 years ago?

A change request on the V5 from saloon to open tourer could trigger the loss of the registration mark as could a change from 4 seats to 2 seats. But if the body is changed without changing the body type or number of seats it’s OK?

From what I can see there has been little help from car clubs or the VSCC etc in clarifying the situation?

Riley Blue

20,915 posts

225 months

Monday 11th March 2019
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Might be worth contacting the FBHVC: http://www.fbhvc.co.uk

Chad speed

Original Poster:

438 posts

196 months

Monday 11th March 2019
quotequote all
Riley Blue said:
Might be worth contacting the FBHVC: http://www.fbhvc.co.uk
Thanks for that, e-mail sent and I'll let you know when/if I get a response.

gareth_r

5,712 posts

236 months

Monday 11th March 2019
quotequote all
The DVLA's "radically altered vehicle" 8 points system does not mention the body of a car with a separate chassis.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit), or frame - original or new and unmodified 5 points
Suspension (front and back) - original 2 points
Axles (both) - original 2 points
Transmission - original 2 points
Steering assembly - original 2 points
Engine - original 1 points

Edited by gareth_r on Monday 11th March 15:41

Morrisboy

68 posts

139 months

Monday 11th March 2019
quotequote all
You should keep the chassis registration if done correctly. DVLA will want to see a photo of the original vehicle with number plate attached, a photo of the chassis running gear (again with reg plate) and finally a built up vehicle with the new body on.
If it's already done and DVLA have not been informed then I suspect it will cause problems.
I did mine 3 years ago, went to plan apart from DVLA initially losing all my paperworkmad

Chad speed

Original Poster:

438 posts

196 months

Tuesday 12th March 2019
quotequote all
Thanks Morrisboy that's useful and kind of rings true with the DVLA's guide lines on 'Rebuilt Vehicle's and 'Keeping a Vehicles Registration'. The FBHVC by the way have responded saying the appropriate person will reply to my e-mail in due course.
My interest is there are a number of unfinished specials coming onto the market, mainly at auction, where the original builder is bailing out before putting the vehicle on the road, clearly they haven't followed the rules, unclear though they are. A couple of cases in point
http://richardedmondsauctions.com/catalogue-new/?l...
https://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/cat...
The Alvis didn't exactly go for peanuts, I'll watch the Triumph Gloria with interest

Edited by Chad speed on Tuesday 12th March 16:29

Morrisboy

68 posts

139 months

Tuesday 12th March 2019
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The Triumph Gloria lists a shortened chassis, strictly speaking this is BIVA territory as it was done in 2015. A bit more of an issue if it came up. Do the VSSC have a DVLA liaison officer or specialist on board that can help (as the VSSC are mentioned in the advert)?

aeropilot

34,297 posts

226 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Morrisboy said:
The Triumph Gloria lists a shortened chassis, strictly speaking this is BIVA territory as it was done in 2015.
yes

That could be a whole world of hurt going forward in the current climate.....

Chad speed

Original Poster:

438 posts

196 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
The Alvis also has a modified chassis so presumably a world of pain there too as well as the chassis number being different to that on the register. Of course if the new owner only intends to use it in VSCC off road events then no problem and they will probably have great fun.
The V5's on both cars have details of the original vehicle and not as they stand now so presumably the time when the DVLA would start to ask questions would be when the V5 was submitted with the correct information?

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
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Morrisboy said:
If it's already done and DVLA have not been informed then I suspect it will cause problems.
How do you notify the DVLA? As they aren't typically bothered.

Astacus

3,363 posts

233 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
All this really is a complete nightmare to people wanting to build specials out of the remains of old cars, which, after all, is the root of some of the UKs best loved car marques.

I wondered what would happen if you changed over the body type (which looks to be not an issue for retaining the reg number) but in later years decided you needed some chassis mods (strengthening for example). Do you suddenly forfeit right to keep your reg number?





By the way Chad (and I hate to do this!) but how's the Ghibli restoration going? I'd love to see an update when you have a moment.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Astacus said:
All this really is a complete nightmare to people wanting to build specials out of the remains of old cars, which, after all, is the root of some of the UKs best loved car marques.

I wondered what would happen if you changed over the body type (which looks to be not an issue for retaining the reg number) but in later years decided you needed some chassis mods (strengthening for example). Do you suddenly forfeit right to keep your reg number?
It all depends what you are doing. It clearly says on the DVLA site that "any welding" will require the vehicle to be inspected and loose it's registration.

Yet we know this isn't true, as welding in a rollcage would result in this.

Therefore all you can do is seek advice from the DVLA. The trouble is, they will only ever give general advice and not an actual decision or permission for an individual car.

As for strengthening, I'm sure you could use a bolt in method, or if along the lines of a rollcage, then you should be fine.

Chad speed

Original Poster:

438 posts

196 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Astacus said:
All this really is a complete nightmare to people wanting to build specials out of the remains of old cars, which, after all, is the root of some of the UKs best loved car marques.

I wondered what would happen if you changed over the body type (which looks to be not an issue for retaining the reg number) but in later years decided you needed some chassis mods (strengthening for example). Do you suddenly forfeit right to keep your reg number?





By the way Chad (and I hate to do this!) but how's the restoration going? I'd love to see an update when you have a moment.
Hi Astacus
The Ghibli is coming along slowly. I've just sold a pre war car that was diverting my attention so after a couple of domestic projects are out of the way I should be back on it.

Astacus

3,363 posts

233 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Thanks, good luck with the domestic projects! I have a few of those monkeys on my back as well!

Morrisboy

68 posts

139 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
How do you notify the DVLA? As they aren't typically bothered.
You notify them the same as for any change done.
As per-
Changes you need to update

You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:
•colour
•engine
•cylinder capacity (cc)
•fuel type
•chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)
•seating capacity
•weight of a large vehicle, eg goods vehicle or campervan

As they have a process in place I would assume they are bothered. Not the same as them being ignorant of it and not bothering you.

Morrisboy

68 posts

139 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
"It clearly says on the DVLA site that "any welding" will require the vehicle to be inspected and loose it's registration."

The only reference to welding I'm aware of is to "cut'n'shuts". Do you have a link to the section of their website?

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Morrisboy said:
You notify them the same as for any change done.
As per-
Changes you need to update

You must update your V5C if you change any of the following:
•colour
•engine
•cylinder capacity (cc)
•fuel type
•chassis or bodyshell (replaced or modified)
•seating capacity
•weight of a large vehicle, eg goods vehicle or campervan

As they have a process in place I would assume they are bothered. Not the same as them being ignorant of it and not bothering you.
I guess it depends on the vehicle in question. Often a Land Rover logbook doesn't distinguish between a pick up and hard top. Meaning the DVLA don't know what it is, so they wouldn't know if you changed it from one to the other either.

Also changing some body's would not change the type. E.g. if you had a 3 door Discovery and fitted a 3 door Defender body to it. It would still match the logbook.

Morrisboy

68 posts

139 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Valid point. Also some old stuff is so badly described it could be anything (2 axle rigid body being a popular one). Mine went from 4 door saloon to two seater pickup so a bit obvious!

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
Morrisboy said:
"It clearly says on the DVLA site that "any welding" will require the vehicle to be inspected and loose it's registration."

The only reference to welding I'm aware of is to "cut'n'shuts". Do you have a link to the section of their website?
Looks like the wording has changed again on the .gov site. The legislation behind it hasn't, but over the years the advice and wording gets changed. Which sadly does nothing to make it any clearer or easier.

It once said any welding... but as I highlighted with rollcages wasn't accurate. I guess they have changed the wording on a similar basis.

The wording and advice is still hard to follow and contradictory.

The Radically altered page:
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-...

Says:

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

But this means any Land Rover rolling about on a Richards chassis should be a Q plate. Which would be nuts. It also means any old car that has had a chassis leg replaced or significantly patched with a new side would also be a Q plate.

Even boxing a C channel chassis rail (common on hot rods) would make it a Q plate.

It does mention something about cut and shut. But it's pretty vague tbh.


Then there is the Rebuilt vehicle regs:
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-ve...


Note there is no table with points here.....

Yet it then appears to describe the same things. There is also no guidance anywhere on distinction there is between Radically altered or Rebuilt. i.e. how does one get classified as one or the other?


But it's still vague.


the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell (car or light van)
a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original (car or light van)

As the above implies fitting a sunroof would mean a Q plate.... something common on things like MGB's. It also says you can't modify the original chassis, but doesn't define what modify means.... e.g. rollcage mounts?

The second line then says a new chassis (not manufacturer as in the Radical altered regs...), but doesn't say not modified, just same specification. Which would suggest certain changes can be made, so long as it meets the same spec. e.g. some aftermarket Land Rover chassis can be ordered in thicker steel. Dimensionally the same overall, but heavier and stronger.



Overall it's as clear as mud. I suspect in a legislative sense, the same regulations back both the Radically Altered and Rebuilt guidance. But for some reason the info is conveyed in a slightly different way.

aeropilot

34,297 posts

226 months

Wednesday 13th March 2019
quotequote all
And then's the now agreed acceptance of some mods if designed to make an old car more efficient (the fitting of a 5-speed gearbox in many cases) but this may not be possible without welding new mounts in a chassis for a different gearbox cross-member rolleyes

The more vague they make it, the more ammo they think they can catch you on, as the onus is on the owner to provide proof.......its Govt after all.