Toyota plots 'GR86' coupe from TNGA platform
Monday 13th January 2020
Toyota plots 'GR86' coupe from TNGA platform
GT86 replacement said to be in the pipeline, but will likely get turbocharged engine - and lose its bespoke architecture
While confirmation of another Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ emerged a few months ago, little was known about what form those cars might take. Handily, Autocar is claiming to have the inside line on what the next Toyobaru will be.
Pretty damn different seems to be the most obvious takeaway, a significant departure from what has come before. Making the Toyota a GR (Gazoo Racing) 86 is the most obvious change, aligning the coupe more directly with the GR Supra and Yaris, but there are also going to be big alterations underneath. And those who enjoyed the 86/BRZ's back-to-basics purity might not like what's been suggested...
The GR86 will sit on a whole new platform, for starters; the original 2012 car was built on Subaru developed architecture, but as the maker's line-up no longer supports RWD, Autocar reckons the GR is likely to use an evolution of Toyota's TNGA platform. Being modular makes it adaptable to lots of different installations, though it'll need to be pretty flexible here, as the GA-B, GA-C and GA-K evolutions of TNGA only support front- and all-wheel drive. GA-L offers up a longitudinal, rear-drive configuration, but only for cars like the Lexus LC and LS. Could that be drastically downsized? Could there be an all-wheel drive BRZ and 86?
And that's just for starters. While still a boxer four, the cars are likely to use a derivative of the 2.4 used in Subaru's Legacy, Outback and Ascent. At its most potent that makes 260hp, so plenty more than before - presumably with a noticeable increase in torque, too. Though what might that do for throttle response, weight distribution and so on? Again, nothing is yet confirmed, but the implication is of a markedly changed end result.
Still, the likelihood of a higher quality cabin should appease all fans of the 86/BRZ twins, albeit caveated once more: more luxury might well mean more weight. That said, the 1,200kg Toyobaru didn't exactly find favour with the market at launch, so perhaps a change to a more accommodating style of coupe will bring added commercial success.
A lot is speculative for the moment then, in case it hadn't been noted, but with a launch date rumoured to be next year there should be more coming soon. One thing is for certain, though: a GR86 is going to be a heck of a lot different to a GT86. More news when we have it...
Discussion
Matt Bird said:
(The original GT86) didn't exactly find favour with the market at launch
You've written this before Matt, and I'd still like to know what you're basing it on. It's a small Japanese coupe, designed for handling rather than being about the numbers. It is, by its nature, a bit niche. The UK market is obsessed with hot hatches, convertibles, and especially German badges; we generally don't buy much Japanese stuff. The streets were never likely to be lined with GT86s.I'm still curious about why AWD platforms (especially 21st century modular ones) can't be adapted to run RWD too, but that's more of a general question as I've seen it thrown around several times in relation to Subaru. They might not want to make a RWD version, but I don't see what would physically prevent it. Anyone know the answer?
Edited by spikyone on Monday 13th January 12:48
spikyone said:
You've written this before Matt, and I'd still like to know what you're basing it on. It's a small Japanese coupe, designed for handling rather than being about the numbers. It is, by its nature, a bit niche. The UK market is obsessed with hot hatches, convertibles, and especially German badges; we generally don't buy much Japanese stuff. The streets were never likely to be lined with GT86s.
I'm still curious about why AWD platforms (especially 21st century modular ones) can't be adapted to run RWD too, but that's more of a general question as I've seen it thrown around several times in relation to Subaru. They might not want to make a RWD version, but I don't see what would physically prevent it. Anyone know the answer?
It won many tests, car of the years (not the big one, in different magazines) awards etc all around the world when it was new . Seems weird to do such a statement, almost like trying to re write the history I'm still curious about why AWD platforms (especially 21st century modular ones) can't be adapted to run RWD too, but that's more of a general question as I've seen it thrown around several times in relation to Subaru. They might not want to make a RWD version, but I don't see what would physically prevent it. Anyone know the answer?
Edited by spikyone on Monday 13th January 12:48
Would be sad to kill the RWD, but developing new platforms these days are just to much money. I have never driven a 4WD thats more fun than a RWD, this case will not be different.
A heavily revised version of the current platform would be great imo, but probably nothing they want to spend the money on, since parts sharing etc will be to low. Hopefully they get their minds together and get rid of the awful boxer engine design though, the turbo boxer must really be the worst engine layout possible, okay a radial engine would probably be slightly worse
Was wondering if the next gt86 might have the engine from the forthcoming Yaris GR. 260bhp thereabouts and 3 cylinder could mean decent mix of performance and economy...
But a lot depends on the design and ethos of the next car. I remember the boxer engine choice was partly due to height restriction in the engine bay, allowed for lower centr of gravity.
I enjoyed my time in the gt86, but not sure I’d had another one. Too used to turbos and superchargers now which day to day and in most driving scenarios seem to make more sense than having to wring a low torque n/a engine.
But a lot depends on the design and ethos of the next car. I remember the boxer engine choice was partly due to height restriction in the engine bay, allowed for lower centr of gravity.
I enjoyed my time in the gt86, but not sure I’d had another one. Too used to turbos and superchargers now which day to day and in most driving scenarios seem to make more sense than having to wring a low torque n/a engine.
spikyone said:
Matt Bird said:
(The original GT86) didn't exactly find favour with the market at launch
You've written this before Matt, and I'd still like to know what you're basing it on. It's a small Japanese coupe, designed for handling rather than being about the numbers. It is, by its nature, a bit niche. The UK market is obsessed with hot hatches, convertibles, and especially German badges; we generally don't buy much Japanese stuff. The streets were never likely to be lined with GT86s.I'm still curious about why AWD platforms (especially 21st century modular ones) can't be adapted to run RWD too, but that's more of a general question as I've seen it thrown around several times in relation to Subaru. They might not want to make a RWD version, but I don't see what would physically prevent it. Anyone know the answer?
Edited by spikyone on Monday 13th January 12:48
So really, the converse is true!
Regarding your question - the current Hachiroku is largely a chopped-up old Impreza underneath. The front suspension is basically reversed (for better steering geometry) and the engine pushed-back to where the driveshafts ought to be. That is the theory, but in practice it uses a driveline related to that in the S2000 and RX-7 and most carried-over bits are modified in some way. There is ultimately very little in common with current Imprezas, much in the same way the X-1/9 ended up with little in common with the 128, other than its engine and chassis code.
So it can be regarded as a 'standalone' plank, even if it started life as not one.
I think the same logic would apply to utilising a big TGNA plank; it'd be too big and heavy (having too much RWD torque capacity/refinement for big Lexuses) for a small, light sports car, so you'd end up throwing most of it away again.
There was an older rumour that they'd try to align the 86 with the MX-5 and utilise that plank, which would probably make more sense.
Black S2K said:
It did pretty well in the US at first, but each variant only now sells 2-300 units per month. Initially, it was around ten times that.
So really, the converse is true!
Regarding your question - the current Hachiroku is largely a chopped-up old Impreza underneath. The front suspension is basically reversed (for better steering geometry) and the engine pushed-back to where the driveshafts ought to be. That is the theory, but in practice it uses a driveline related to that in the S2000 and RX-7 and most carried-over bits are modified in some way. There is ultimately very little in common with current Imprezas, much in the same way the X-1/9 ended up with little in common with the 128, other than its engine and chassis code.
So it can be regarded as a 'standalone' plank, even if it started life as not one.
I think the same logic would apply to utilising a big TGNA plank; it'd be too big and heavy (having too much RWD torque capacity/refinement for big Lexuses) for a small, light sports car, so you'd end up throwing most of it away again.
There was an older rumour that they'd try to align the 86 with the MX-5 and utilise that plank, which would probably make more sense.
To an extent, I could understand Subaru's argument that it's "AWD only" if they were using a transverse engine, like VW's MQB - it works for FWD and AWD, but you'd be a bit mad to have a transverse front-engined RWD, especially for a sports car. The same applies to TNGA; the smaller sizes that would be more suited to a GT86 are all designed around transverse engines, and as you said the larger version designed for longitudinal engines is far too big.So really, the converse is true!
Regarding your question - the current Hachiroku is largely a chopped-up old Impreza underneath. The front suspension is basically reversed (for better steering geometry) and the engine pushed-back to where the driveshafts ought to be. That is the theory, but in practice it uses a driveline related to that in the S2000 and RX-7 and most carried-over bits are modified in some way. There is ultimately very little in common with current Imprezas, much in the same way the X-1/9 ended up with little in common with the 128, other than its engine and chassis code.
So it can be regarded as a 'standalone' plank, even if it started life as not one.
I think the same logic would apply to utilising a big TGNA plank; it'd be too big and heavy (having too much RWD torque capacity/refinement for big Lexuses) for a small, light sports car, so you'd end up throwing most of it away again.
There was an older rumour that they'd try to align the 86 with the MX-5 and utilise that plank, which would probably make more sense.
But Subaru's selling point has been 'symmetric AWD' for a while; it's literally designed for longitudinal engines. If Subaru's is truly a modular system (in the same way as TNGA - look at how Toyota created the Yaris GR platform, combining TNGA-B with TNGA-C!), how difficult can it be to produce a smaller version if it were needed? Is it more accurate to say it's too expensive? Or is it just modular in a more 20th century sense?
I like this plan, assuming it's still FR which I'm sure it will be with the Hachiroku name.
I test drove the current car, back to back with my 180SX; the engine just felt really flat. What can I say, I guess I like torque. The 2.4 boxer turbo sounds perfect to me - decently powerful and torquey, four cylinders to keep weight down but boxer layout makes it smooth, unlike the I4 everyone else has.
Yes it may be on a 'shared platform' but three things; (1) the current car isn't technically ideal, with MacPherson front suspension and somewhat front-heavy weight balance (2) the original AE86 Corolla was based on the previous gen Corolla family car platform (3) Toyota's TNGA, like other manufacturers, is lower and lighter than their previous cars (for economy) - so I can't see why you couldn't make a good sports car out of it.
One thing that does confuse me a bit though is that a 255hp turbo four GR86 is going to overlap even more with the four-pot Supra SZ-R (249hp turbo four), I don't really understand how they will position the two cars, although the Supra is a strict two-seater.
spikyone said:
Matt Bird said:
(The original GT86) didn't exactly find favour with the market at launch
You've written this before Matt, and I'd still like to know what you're basing it on. It's a small Japanese coupe, designed for handling rather than being about the numbers. It is, by its nature, a bit niche. The UK market is obsessed with hot hatches, convertibles, and especially German badges; we generally don't buy much Japanese stuff. The streets were never likely to be lined with GT86s.Edited by spikyone on Monday 13th January 12:48
Water Fairy said:
Personally I'd love an 86 but can't stretch to it atm. I think it's obvious why it didn't sell well. Not powerful enough, quick enough or plush enough for the pub enthusiasts.
The mx5 does well. The problem is coupe form, it is just too small a market. A folding hardtop or Targa would have helped sales over more power.robsprocket said:
Read the article, Toyota don't make a suitable small platform for a rear drive longitudinal layout, only the larger GA-L platform. The smaller platforms are all transverse layouts.
The chassis architecture of the new Yaris GR is TNGA GA-B at the front (like the regular Yaris) and GA-C at the back (like the C-HR/Prius/Corolla) so they can utilise multilink rear suspension and house the rear differential.I wonder if something similar could be done with the GR 86?
Thesprucegoose said:
Water Fairy said:
Personally I'd love an 86 but can't stretch to it atm. I think it's obvious why it didn't sell well. Not powerful enough, quick enough or plush enough for the pub enthusiasts.
The mx5 does well. The problem is coupe form, it is just too small a market. A folding hardtop or Targa would have helped sales over more power.My car history has a couple of Lotus' and 20-odd years of racing, I can honestly say the 86 is the best all rounder I've owned. Usually after about a year with a car I'm starting to look at something else but approaching 2 years with the 86 and I still have plans for the car.
I came from a Golf R and have never missed the bhp - my original plan was to run the 86 for a year until the warranty ran out then strip and cage it for racing but it's such a good road car I've ended up keeping it pretty standard. It's fun at safe speeds and it communicates so well that when the time is right, it's easy and accessible to 'play' with.
I've upgraded the ICE with a decent headunit so I can have Car Play and Focal speakers and added a small amount of soundproofing so it's now much more usable day-to-day, plus I have a set of Team Dynamic wheels and AD08RS tyres for trackdays (this year I'm looking at AP brakes, maybe some suspension).
The interior isn't great but bit by bit I'm going to improve it, it's one of the easiest cars I've worked on to remove interior trim and my plan is to spruce up the plastics and fake leather with some alcantara and piano black trim.
And I suppose the above is the point of the 86, it's great fun to drive even as standard but it also has scope to change however you want it without breaking the bank - a supercharger would set me back £5k and give me 280bhp without changing much else, if I want silly power, it's all there with turbos in various guises up to 700bhp. I might go FI one day, but at the moment I'm happy with what I've got.
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