Tuesday 6th November 2001
GTM Libra
Viable alternative to Elise or just another curious looking kit car?
Discussion
The factory will *build* you a 1.4 for £15 195. It will need SVA, MOT, Tax and Registration say £500, gives under £16 000.
You can spend as much as you like, if you put fancy seats and other mods in.
As the article says, for around £1k upgrade the engine (if you self build, this will give you 143hp of VVC)
I still think that it looks good value up against the elise II.
Sparks
You can spend as much as you like, if you put fancy seats and other mods in.
As the article says, for around £1k upgrade the engine (if you self build, this will give you 143hp of VVC)
I still think that it looks good value up against the elise II.
Sparks
The cars are stunning, I saw one for the first time at Castle Combe recently and they really do look well finished. They go quite well too!, I'm quite sure that they could hold their own against an Elise or an MR2. Don't let the short(ish) wheelbase put you off, these are serious cars.......
If I'm not looking out of the rear window, I think I can save it"
If I'm not looking out of the rear window, I think I can save it"
I saw one parked up in the carpark outside the Reading branch of Halfords. I didn't get to talk to the owner, unfortunately, but he was an older gent with a grey beard.
The car looked good. I'm sure this design has been around for a while though - didn't Top Gear do a short piece on it a few years ago?
Regards
Jon
The car looked good. I'm sure this design has been around for a while though - didn't Top Gear do a short piece on it a few years ago?
Regards
Jon
Insurance.
Not only do we have full accompanied demo' insurance for anyone (even freelance journalists :-) ), we also have full public and product liability insurance. So not only do we engineer our cars to the same very high standards as mainstream industry, we also protect the public and our customers just as well as the mainstream.
Joe 90
(aka Andrew Barber, director, FBS Engineering Ltd)
Not only do we have full accompanied demo' insurance for anyone (even freelance journalists :-) ), we also have full public and product liability insurance. So not only do we engineer our cars to the same very high standards as mainstream industry, we also protect the public and our customers just as well as the mainstream.
Joe 90
(aka Andrew Barber, director, FBS Engineering Ltd)
Oh dear. I fear for the future of FBS, they've got a _very_ niche product, spent £500k on development with full blown CATIA setup etc. and they let hyper-critical journo/racers (Tiff)loose on it well before it was finished. On top of all this they are presumably letting customers loose on the same somewhat underdeveloped car as Joe 90 says they have full demo insurance. The FBS website even compares the car directly to the Elise... In contrast the approach taken by GTR seems less ambitious but also less risky. As regards insurance, I'm 25 but my broker has had no problem in providing temporary extension to cover to enable me to test-drive cars that otherwise would be unavailable (Just bought a Porker.)
If Tiff is a hyper critical journalist then we have only a few issues to adress as he did not criticise the car other than in styling (very subjective and any worthwhile piece of styling will have some people liking and some not liking it, see voting on the Census) and the unfinished hood. Well, the prototype hood Tiff saw was already more waterproof and easier to use than any Elise while the pre-production version now fitted to the blue car is better still and we have more minor improvements in hand for customer cars.
The only reason TG got the car unfinished is they came to us because they were short of material.
Yes, we are letting potential customers in Census before it is 100% finished, a good way to give the market what it wants is to ask before its too late to make changes.
We never wanted to compare Census with Elise since it is designed to fit a different part of the market (there would have been no point doing an Elise clone). However, the press and public always compare it with the Elise (in Ted's case very favourably) so we have responded to that by providing information on our site.
I am not aware of any new Porsche priced below £30,000 and to get one as fast as a Census requires nearer £40,000. We are not holding out Census as a Porsche competitor. If someone can afford a new Porsche, they are unlikely to be looking in our market sector.
The only reason TG got the car unfinished is they came to us because they were short of material.
Yes, we are letting potential customers in Census before it is 100% finished, a good way to give the market what it wants is to ask before its too late to make changes.
We never wanted to compare Census with Elise since it is designed to fit a different part of the market (there would have been no point doing an Elise clone). However, the press and public always compare it with the Elise (in Ted's case very favourably) so we have responded to that by providing information on our site.
I am not aware of any new Porsche priced below £30,000 and to get one as fast as a Census requires nearer £40,000. We are not holding out Census as a Porsche competitor. If someone can afford a new Porsche, they are unlikely to be looking in our market sector.
>>The only reason TG got the car unfinished is they came to us because they were short of material.<<
But you said yes...
>>Yes, we are letting potential customers in Census before it is 100% finished, a good way to give the market what it wants is to ask before its too late to make changes.<<
But then you get reviews like this:
"Perhaps the pre-production interior, rattles and squeaks coloured my
judgement, but it didn't give me that tingle in the spine that sports cars
normally do"
>>However, the press and public always compare it with the Elise (in Ted's case very favourably)<<
"It will be more comfortable and more practical than an Elise, but the
Elise is such a little jewel I know which reflection I'd rather see in a shop window"
Not _that_ favourably and the response to the Pistonheads poll is 78% negative or undecided.
I apologise for questioning the financial approach of your firm, I work for a dotcom, it tends to breed a certain amount of alarm about smallish startups, whatever the field.
Reference to Porker was with regards to insurance only, obviously the FBS is in a very different market sector.
I don't wish you, or your firm, any ill. I think we all get excited about new Brit manufacturers and hope for the best for them, but if you are going to launch into the market surely you're going to need to answer these issues?
But you said yes...
>>Yes, we are letting potential customers in Census before it is 100% finished, a good way to give the market what it wants is to ask before its too late to make changes.<<
But then you get reviews like this:
"Perhaps the pre-production interior, rattles and squeaks coloured my
judgement, but it didn't give me that tingle in the spine that sports cars
normally do"
>>However, the press and public always compare it with the Elise (in Ted's case very favourably)<<
"It will be more comfortable and more practical than an Elise, but the
Elise is such a little jewel I know which reflection I'd rather see in a shop window"
Not _that_ favourably and the response to the Pistonheads poll is 78% negative or undecided.
I apologise for questioning the financial approach of your firm, I work for a dotcom, it tends to breed a certain amount of alarm about smallish startups, whatever the field.
Reference to Porker was with regards to insurance only, obviously the FBS is in a very different market sector.
I don't wish you, or your firm, any ill. I think we all get excited about new Brit manufacturers and hope for the best for them, but if you are going to launch into the market surely you're going to need to answer these issues?
Hello again Jaydee,
Intersting conversation, thanks.
Ted, any chance of copying it to the Census forum as well, please?
You are right, we took a chance with TG but with c.2m viewers and the programme under threat of permanent cancellation we decided to risk it and were very pleased with the result.
You are right that Ted said that visually he would prefer an Elise (although Census is a more direct equivalent to his TVR S than an Elise is) but he also said some very complimentary things about the car. As did Kojak, see Census forum page 8.
As to things like squeaks, rattles and interior baubles. They are very, very important and we would not send out a customer car with squeaks and rattles but they are trivial from a time, difficulty and cost point of view when compared with designing and developing the chassis, powertrain and electrics to the high standard of function and reliability we have achieved.
Interesting that you had a FWD Elan (I have just discovered the contributer profiles and completed my own). A car Robin and I have both driven and been hugely impressed by (to be more controversial, we think it much better than an Elise!). In terms of everyday real world useability and cross country speed, we think Census is in the same league but being RWD is much more fun.
I completely agree about the difficulties of setting up on a limited budget (mind you Jensen have spent £11m so far and I am not sure if they have delivered a car) but it does force us to be very efficient and at least we have the right experience, kit and premises.
We would love to see a specialist group test from a mag' or TV programme. How about Elise, Census and Tamora? Not because they are comparable, they are three very different approaches to the two seat convertible but it would be huge fun!
Strathcarron, well the first thing to do when setting out a vehicle concept is to make it comply with the regulations and that bike engine loophole was never going to last for long.
Intersting conversation, thanks.
Ted, any chance of copying it to the Census forum as well, please?
You are right, we took a chance with TG but with c.2m viewers and the programme under threat of permanent cancellation we decided to risk it and were very pleased with the result.
You are right that Ted said that visually he would prefer an Elise (although Census is a more direct equivalent to his TVR S than an Elise is) but he also said some very complimentary things about the car. As did Kojak, see Census forum page 8.
As to things like squeaks, rattles and interior baubles. They are very, very important and we would not send out a customer car with squeaks and rattles but they are trivial from a time, difficulty and cost point of view when compared with designing and developing the chassis, powertrain and electrics to the high standard of function and reliability we have achieved.
Interesting that you had a FWD Elan (I have just discovered the contributer profiles and completed my own). A car Robin and I have both driven and been hugely impressed by (to be more controversial, we think it much better than an Elise!). In terms of everyday real world useability and cross country speed, we think Census is in the same league but being RWD is much more fun.
I completely agree about the difficulties of setting up on a limited budget (mind you Jensen have spent £11m so far and I am not sure if they have delivered a car) but it does force us to be very efficient and at least we have the right experience, kit and premises.
We would love to see a specialist group test from a mag' or TV programme. How about Elise, Census and Tamora? Not because they are comparable, they are three very different approaches to the two seat convertible but it would be huge fun!
Strathcarron, well the first thing to do when setting out a vehicle concept is to make it comply with the regulations and that bike engine loophole was never going to last for long.
I think I'll have to arrange to see a Census in the flesh and see what I think, rather than going on others' opinions. You never know, I might even say something nice about it !
If you can get the Census to the level of usability of the Elan it should be a lot less niche than I had at first thought, there's a lot to be said for a car with serious sporting intent that you can get the shopping in.
Perhaps Evo would be interested ? Not sure if you've been in their mag yet, but they do seem to have a lot of time for the smaller manufacturers.
I agree about the Elan v Elise issue, but perhaps I'd better stay out of that I'm already getting enough stick from Tiv drivers, without offending Lotus ones !
As for Strathcarron D'oh
I can't believe they launched with a product that couldn't be type approved. Where does this leave bike engined 7s ?
Are you doing all the build of the Census in house ? With reference to the Tamora build thread, chassis piled up around the place don't make a good impression ! Are you using your engineering resources for anything other than designing the Census ? There don't seem to be many people out there with your level of design software.
If you can get the Census to the level of usability of the Elan it should be a lot less niche than I had at first thought, there's a lot to be said for a car with serious sporting intent that you can get the shopping in.
Perhaps Evo would be interested ? Not sure if you've been in their mag yet, but they do seem to have a lot of time for the smaller manufacturers.
I agree about the Elan v Elise issue, but perhaps I'd better stay out of that I'm already getting enough stick from Tiv drivers, without offending Lotus ones !
As for Strathcarron D'oh
I can't believe they launched with a product that couldn't be type approved. Where does this leave bike engined 7s ? Are you doing all the build of the Census in house ? With reference to the Tamora build thread, chassis piled up around the place don't make a good impression ! Are you using your engineering resources for anything other than designing the Census ? There don't seem to be many people out there with your level of design software.
You are very welcome to see and drive the car, let me know when you are ready (andrewbarber@fbs-eng.co.uk).
Useability should be similar to Elan. The roof is exactly the same concept. The ride and NVH are just as good. It has a locking boot capable of taking three carrier bags of shopping (checked this at Waitroses last week when my little boy was occupying the passenger seat!) plus room behind the seats for a sports bag (roof down). Roof up, there is room for a small suitcase or a set of golf clubs plus the sports bag. Engine, gearbox, differential, electrical systems and much of the wiring, seats, etc. are all unmodified mass production parts so reliability will be acceptable. Plus we have validated by testing its capability in real world situations such as a long motorway run into a packed city on a 30 degree day; loading onto ferries and high speed motorway driving in cross winds.
We are working on getting Evo to test the Census.
I have not followed the status of the legality of bike engined kits so cannot comment.
We specify, design and assemble the Census. All the manufacturing and (for now) paint is sub-contracted to keep overheads sensible. EIther business model works, TVR make everything while Caterham make very little.
We are open to offers of sub-con design work for other manufacturers! Or they are welcome to buy running chassis and add their own bodies.
Useability should be similar to Elan. The roof is exactly the same concept. The ride and NVH are just as good. It has a locking boot capable of taking three carrier bags of shopping (checked this at Waitroses last week when my little boy was occupying the passenger seat!) plus room behind the seats for a sports bag (roof down). Roof up, there is room for a small suitcase or a set of golf clubs plus the sports bag. Engine, gearbox, differential, electrical systems and much of the wiring, seats, etc. are all unmodified mass production parts so reliability will be acceptable. Plus we have validated by testing its capability in real world situations such as a long motorway run into a packed city on a 30 degree day; loading onto ferries and high speed motorway driving in cross winds.
We are working on getting Evo to test the Census.
I have not followed the status of the legality of bike engined kits so cannot comment.
We specify, design and assemble the Census. All the manufacturing and (for now) paint is sub-contracted to keep overheads sensible. EIther business model works, TVR make everything while Caterham make very little.
We are open to offers of sub-con design work for other manufacturers! Or they are welcome to buy running chassis and add their own bodies.
On the GTM Libra front, my friend bought one ealier in the year and has since completed modding the engine (porting, throttle bodies, etc).
I have to say it's a very impressive car. The finish is excellent. The fibreglass chassis does scare me a little but he insures me that it's strong enough (it's rigidity seemed immense). Lots of room inside and very useable.
It's now quicker than a Sport 190 Elise, cost half the price and it's more unique. Looking forward to seeing how it goes on track......
Graeme.
I have to say it's a very impressive car. The finish is excellent. The fibreglass chassis does scare me a little but he insures me that it's strong enough (it's rigidity seemed immense). Lots of room inside and very useable.
It's now quicker than a Sport 190 Elise, cost half the price and it's more unique. Looking forward to seeing how it goes on track......
Graeme.
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