RE: TVR Speed Six Design Spec Upgrade

RE: TVR Speed Six Design Spec Upgrade

Tuesday 12th May 2009

TVR Speed Six Design Spec Upgrade

Melling reveals full tech details of 550bhp Speed Six conversion


Melling Sportscars has followed-up news of its 516bhp and 550bhp Speed Six engine conversion launch with a full technical round-up of what the work entails.

New lease of life for Speed Six TVRs
New lease of life for Speed Six TVRs
The conversion returns the Speed Six engine to its original design spec (as conceived by Al Melling on behalf of TVR), and which was subsequently modified prior to production by the Blackpool firm.

As we understand it, those TVR modifications included elimination of oil galleries providing additional lubrication to the valve-train, and also repositioned the cams and finger followers to a location that shifted the stress points on both components. These changes appear to have contributed to the engine's less than perfect reliability record.

The Melling conversion costs £7,500 (plus VAT) for the 4.5-litre/516bhp version, and £8,500 (plus VAT) if you want 4.7-litres and 550bhp. According to Melling Sportscars the figures are not rolling road estimates but actual engine dyno figures, and the conversion comes with a two year parts and labour warranty.

Official details as supplied by Melling Sportscars are reproduced below:

The conversion includes the re-machining of the cylinder head. This re-positions the finger followers and position of the cam shafts. The modifications also include the additional oil galleries to the cylinder head that were removed on the Speed six. These modifications give more power as originally designed. They also give a vast improvement in reliability.
Higher performance cylinder liners which give better heat transfer and less friction.
New design pistons giving better balance and quicker engine response.
Specially designed piston rings to give better sealing and less friction.
The return of solid billet cam shafts with new profiles.
Specially designed valve springs with less load giving quicker engine response.
The return of a solid billet crank shaft with higher performance main bearing.

All Melling rebuilt Speed 6 engines come with the following components replaced as standard and using all original castings,

New Melling Crankshaft

Relinered and rebored cylinder block with deck remachined
New Melling Liners
New Melling forged pistons with Dows D10 dry lubricant to skirts
New high specification piston rings
New forged H beam 4340 steel rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
New main and big end bearings
New sump baffle panel
Cylinder head completely stripped and rebuilt with new Colsibro valve
guides fitted and seats reground throughout.
New inlet valves
New exhaust valves
New valve stem seals
New Melling finger followers
New Melling camshafts
New headgasket
New oil feed modification to cylinder head (original design)
New high specification timing chains
New half time bearings
New molybdenum disulphide impregnated upper timing chain tensioner
New oil seals

All bhp are genuine Engine Dyno figures and not estimated Rolling Road figures

The AJP/Speed 6 Engine is a result of ongoing development at MCD.

4.5 AJP6 £7,500 plus VAT

4.7 AJP6 £8,500 plus VAT

Engine removal and refit £1,000 plus VAT

Author
Discussion

PhantomPH

Original Poster:

4,043 posts

225 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Whilst that sounds great, nearly £11k for the full business is a LOT of money.

For those chasing reliability, £11k can go a long way towards alternatives or a few cheaper rebuilds.

P~

JonRB

74,530 posts

272 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Given it's Melling, are new parts made from unobtainium, vapourwareum and grandpromiseum?

Fume troll

4,389 posts

212 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Good to get some more facts at least. Keep them coming.

Cheers,

FT.

Podie

46,630 posts

275 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
PhantomPH said:
Whilst that sounds great, nearly £11k for the full business is a LOT of money.
Agreed. Makes me wonder if TVR would have been better adding circa £8-10k per vehicle to give better reliability...

PTOTY

96 posts

220 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
This questions has probably been answered a few times, BUT.....

Why did TVR change the original design of the engine? Was it a manufacturing cost issue?

I would have liked to have been in the design meetings where the decision was made to re-position the finger followers and to remove the oil wells...surely somebody would have asked what affect those changes would make to the engine.

Or were there other constraints that we don't know about??...were the design changes justified by more than just cost?

I would like to see how much money TVR lost through having to repair the engines due to these design flaws Vs. the amount they made in repairing cars out of warranty.

If the orginal engine design had been used would that have reduced the price of the warranty costs on TVR and end users?

PhantomPH

Original Poster:

4,043 posts

225 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Podie said:
PhantomPH said:
Whilst that sounds great, nearly £11k for the full business is a LOT of money.
Agreed. Makes me wonder if TVR would have been better adding circa £8-10k per vehicle to give better reliability...
In reality, wouldn't it really only be about £3k to the cost of the vehicle?? Remove/lower the profit percentage that melling will be taken, plus the engine removal/labour costs (the engine has to be built still) and you are only talking about machining and material differences.

ETA - I was under the impression that TVR changed the design in order to avoid paying Melling rights money...or something like that.

Edited by PhantomPH on Tuesday 12th May 11:48

tegwin

1,629 posts

206 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Amazing stuff... but why would you spend that much money to still have an engine that is not ever going to be 100% reliable when you could just pop a BMW straight 6 straight in, spend some money tuning it and pocket the change!

FEE 50

147 posts

201 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
PhantomPH said:
Whilst that sounds great, nearly £11k for the full business is a LOT of money.
...It seems a hell of a lot of money. Don't get me wrong its a lot of kit, but at that price I think the other alternative routes seem much more cost effective... unless I'm missing something?

Cacatous

3,161 posts

273 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
I'd like to see how much of a difference this makes to the performance of the car.

If only TVR had used the money saved on decent bloody suspension.

PhantomPH

Original Poster:

4,043 posts

225 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Cacatous said:
I'd like to see how much of a difference this makes to the performance of the car.

If only TVR had used the money saved on decent bloody suspension.
TVR Power do a full rebuild with a 2-year warranty for £6,500(ish). That would leave you a good chunk for sussy upgrades. wink

900T-R

20,404 posts

257 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
tegwin said:
Amazing stuff... but why would you spend that much money to still have an engine that is not ever going to be 100% reliable when you could just pop a BMW straight 6 straight in, spend some money tuning it and pocket the change!
Uhm, any idea what a 500+ bhp N/A BMW straight six would cost - and how many miles it would go between rebuilds? IIRC they had a bit of a mission getting it to 365 for the CSL...

CiderwithCerbie

1,420 posts

267 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Ummm, even if this is all true (for which we don't have objective evidence one way or the other) - does anyone really fancy driving a 500bhp Tuscan?!?
360 brake in the original chassis and set up was quite a handful thank you very much
However in a Cerbera chassis properly set up .... does anyone know ho much it would cost to get a engine shipped out to Australia???

Mr Whippy

29,027 posts

241 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Why can't they just do a 4.0 one that doesn't break, with about 400bhp?

Great if you want a huge power TVR, but a Red Rose Tammy would be plenty for me, and I'd certainly not want to buy one of these cars 2nd hand with a mega engine in it, as it's just more liability if it breaks, more chance of binning it, more for insurance? More strain on gearbox and diff etc!?

Seems like a great exercise in making ballistic S6 Tivvers, but what about most owners who just want assured reliability? Melling are missing that market imho, which it has to be said is going to be much more popular and profitable I'd imagine!?

Dave

Cacatous

3,161 posts

273 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
However in a Cerbera chassis properly set up .... does anyone know ho much it would cost to get a engine shipped out to Australia???
I didn't realise you were in Australia! I'm in Cairns, no TVRs up this way unfortunately. I'd love to have my old Tuscan S up here. The mountains are awesome drives.

JR

12,722 posts

258 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Why can't they just do a 4.0 one that doesn't break, with about 400bhp?

Great if you want a huge power TVR, but a Red Rose Tammy would be plenty for me, and I'd certainly not want to buy one of these cars 2nd hand with a mega engine in it, as it's just more liability if it breaks, more chance of binning it, more for insurance? More strain on gearbox and diff etc!?

Seems like a great exercise in making ballistic S6 Tivvers, but what about most owners who just want assured reliability? Melling are missing that market imho, which it has to be said is going to be much more popular and profitable I'd imagine!?
I think that that is available but looking at what is done I don't think that the cost would be any less.

Mark A S

1,836 posts

188 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
The best thing Al Melling can do IMO, is get one of these engines in a car, and show it off with its claimed BHP figures, then no more conjecture.
Personally, I find it a bit hard to believe, as I have a 4.3 SP 6 in my Tuscan from TVR power which puts out 415 BHP and 400 torques, it is an immense engine.
Another 101 BHP for a 200 cc increase appears optimistic, unless its revs like hell.
I would love to be proved incorrect though, you can never have enough POWER !!

cheers

VerySideways

10,238 posts

272 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Why can't they just do a 4.0 one that doesn't break, with about 400bhp?
+1
clap

Lucozade

2,574 posts

279 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
For comparison, feel free to update as necessary:

Melling:

2 year warranty
4.5 : £9775
4.7 : £10925

TVR Power:

2 year unlimited warranty
rebuild: £6462.50
4.3 : £9200.03

Racing Green: FFF design



STR8:

JR

12,722 posts

258 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
Mark A S said:
The best thing Al Melling can do IMO, is get one of these engines in a car, and show it off with its claimed BHP figures, then no more conjecture.
Personally, I find it a bit hard to believe, as I have a 4.3 SP 6 in my Tuscan from TVR power which puts out 415 BHP and 400 torques, it is an immense engine.
Another 101 BHP for a 200 cc increase appears optimistic, unless its revs like hell.
I would love to be proved incorrect though, you can never have enough POWER !!
The real question is why TVR settled for less power. Moving the camshaft centreline so that almost all of the multiplying lever arm effect of the followers is lost was not a good move for chasing power. Look at the RG FFF head, they hardly appear to have lost any power.

900T-R

20,404 posts

257 months

Tuesday 12th May 2009
quotequote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
Ummm, even if this is all true (for which we don't have objective evidence one way or the other) - does anyone really fancy driving a 500bhp Tuscan?!?
No, not a Mk1 at least... but then the Saggy has often been reported about as something that could use an extra bit of oomph...