RE: Honda Civic Type R

RE: Honda Civic Type R

Friday 5th April 2002

Honda Civic Type R

New hot hatch icon or noisy shopping car?


Author
Discussion

stc_bennett

Original Poster:

5,224 posts

203 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
*** MESSAGE DELETED ***

kevinday

8,253 posts

216 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
I have never seen the need to go screaming up to 8,000 rpm in a road car. There is 'no substitute for cubes' when you want to go faster in a relaxed manner. In my 350i I rarely felt the need to exceed 4,000 rpm, and still made considerable progress. IMHO a screamy engine will result in a frenetic driver, much along the lines of driving style is related to the kind of music you listen too.

The performance appears to be similar to a VR6 Corrado, I know which one I would prefer (and it ain't Japanese)

s2 giles

2,859 posts

211 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
Come on guys.....

Firstly I have an S2 for relaxed roofless driving (relaxed ish) and an Accord Type-R for work/ daily purposes.......

However I would agree with the comments in the article. I test drove the Civic-R and found it lacking in X-factor, couldnt tell you what it was. But I could see why it is 7000 cheaper than the Accord, it was certainly built to a price point.

No LSD, odd gearstick position, very very square boxy feel, the flat floor didnt help.

Try the Accord Type-R now that its had some recent chasis tweeks & the kick is better when you get to VTEC at 5800 but max output isnt until 7400rpm.

Whats your problem with NOISY ??

The Type-R cars are designed without bulkhead soundproofing so its bound to be noisy.
You know what they say..... if its too loud, your too ....?

regards

pikey

7,658 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
As a current owner as one of these things (and previous owner of Chimaera and Cerbera), I disagree with your comments as I think they miss the point.

I wonder where you test drove it or for how long. You failed to mention that the engine pulls quite happily from 1.5k all the way up to 8, but it only gets noisey and agressive once the VTEC kicks in at about 6. For driving around town or sitting on the motorway, you'd never go above 5... so it's quiet. The screaming is only when you're caning it, which most cars do anyway, and actually I do like it. No it doesn't sound like a V8, but it's an entirely different animal. What hot hatch does sound good? Having heard a 205 and a 172 on full chat, they're certainly not better.

Must admit that the car is much more fun after about a month (ie. more than a weekend), but maybe that's me as I thought the same with the Chim and Cerb??

I've had mine for 4 months now and am very pleased with every aspect of it. It does more than what it says on the tin; a reliable, cheap (16k), practical car that's great fun to drive, quick and fully guaranteed for 3 years! It can be as quiet or as noisy as you'd like.

See you at P2002

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/pikeynet/stuff/typer.htm

s2 giles

2,859 posts

211 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
I would agree that as you have it for longer, you get more used to it.

compared with normal cars that slow down at the high end of 6000 revs, the Type-r are only just getting going.

I enjoy my Accord more now, learning exactly where to change and what speeds in what gears plant you at the right point of the rev range

Have fun
Advertisement

pikey

7,658 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
quote:

In my 350i I rarely felt the need to exceed 4,000 rpm, and still made considerable progress.

The Civic Type R is the same (depending on considerable progress I suppose )

quote:
The performance appears to be similar to a VR6 Corrado

I know someone who's just sold his Corrado for one of these and thinks the R is much better in every respect. I've not driven a Corrado, but one thing's for sure - it looks a damm sight better!

quote:
I know which one I would prefer (and it ain't Japanese)

Nor is a Civic Type R - that's British - made in Swindon and (as a first ever!) is exported to Japan!!

jeremyc

17,011 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
Coincidently I drove a TypeR this morning and came away with mixed feelings.

The looks are just too ordinary for my taste, not helped by the limited colour choices. I also found that the steering lacked feel and seemed to have a bit too much assistance. Ted is right about the torque thing as well - it really doesn't want to pick up it's skirt and go unless you're prepared to keep it in that 6-8K rev band. You need to be prepared to do plenty of 'stick stirring to overtake (and don't forget you're going to fly through that 2K band if you're accelerating hard, so be prepared for a change or two in your maneouvre).

That said, it has the potential to be quite fun and not bad value for money. I can't help thinking though that a Seat Leon Cupra 20vT or MG ZS 180 might present interesting alternatives for less money.

PetrolTed

34,324 posts

239 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
quote:
I wonder where you test drove it or for how long. You failed to mention that the engine pulls quite happily from 1.5k all the way up to 8


- I did around 200 miles on a variety of roads.

- I do indeed mention that the torque curve is flat but all this pulling quite happily business is a bit of a giggle. It does pull in a linear manner but it's still gutless. Perhaps I'm just used to my old shed which has less power but more torque...

SamN01

874 posts

204 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
I enjoyed the article until "Power is nothing without grunt" - What a load of Rubbish. It doesn't even make sense.
I agree with objective comments on 0-60 times, BHP, and Torque, but grunt ???? This may get me in to trouble but cars can be fun without a V8.
Does the Lotus Elise have grunt ? I assume your answer is no. Does the Lotus Elise deserve it's status amongst sports cars with more grunt ? - Yes it does.
As for the Peugeot hatches you prefer, which of those has "grunt" ? - None.
This is a hot hatch not a GT car and no one is claiming it is. I think you are being slightly harsh.
Ok time for my bottle of pills now me thinks :-)

jimbro1000

1,616 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
I'm a little bit biased here having been the owner of an Integra Type-R for a couple of years. The Civic is basically the kiddies version of the real Type-R's. Honda have successfully killed off their best handling models in favour of more production and consumer friendly models - but that doesn't put the Civic down in the shopping trolley division. It still has superb handling and given that it IS a small car performs very well. Bizarely though Honda don't seemed to have learned anything from the old Civic Type-R which had all the same problems (too peaky and not enough torque) despite an extra 400cc and a claimed extra 30-ish bhp. The base model type-r (now the civic) is rough and ready with little courtesy paid to comfort and here I have to confess to some ignorance. The Integra had THE best production fit Recaro seats I have ever come across - they are incredibly comfortable and supportive even over long distances. The civic - I simply don't know on this matter. I imagine this is just one of the quality parts that has been binned to keep cost down. The LSD appears to have gone the same way - this was one of the things that made the Type-Rs so good in all conditions.

Ultimately if I had to have a new Type-R it would be the Civic, I found the Accord to be too big and it just wasn't as nimble as it's name suggested. The Integra replacement isn't being sold in the UK and from what I've heard it is nothing like as good as its predecessor.

Given a choice though I would stick with the slightly older Integra (98->) as this really was the best Honda have produced at this end of the market. It may be 0.3 seconds slower to 60 and has a whole 10bhp less at peak but it pisses all over the new Civic and does a good job of showing the S2000 up as well (60bhp extra?). Those Integras are changing hands now for as little as 6000 at only 3 or 4 years old (just out of warranty, not that it was ever needed in my experience). They aren't as tunable as other rice burners as they already have a fair amount of work on them but they are amazing pieces of the automotive art (just not so hot to look at).

PetrolTed

34,324 posts

239 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
quote:

I enjoyed the article until "Power is nothing without grunt" - What a load of Rubbish



Fair point. I was trying to highlight that the discrepency between power and torque with the VTEC paints a false picture of the car's capabilities.

TomW

3 posts

200 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
[Q]Fair point. I was trying to highlight that the discrepency between power and torque with the VTEC paints a false picture of the car's capabilities. [/Q]

On the contrary, peak torque figures tell you very little about a car's capabilities when driven hard. Peak bhp/tonne is a far far more important figure.

At 60mph, while a torquey low reving car has to be in a gear with say 15mph/1000rpm, a high revving powerful car can be in a gear with 10mph/1000rpm, and hence produce more torque at the wheels from less torque at the engine. Torque at the engine doesn't make you accelerate - torque at the wheels does.

I'll stop blathering on now. I'm only jealous of your big pengises.

Tom

dougal

597 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
I've never driven one, but have driven Honda VTEC powered cars before and can imagine it could be as frustrating as it is fun, ie waiting for the engine to haul 1204Kg out of a low speed 2nd gear hairpin with relatively little torque, which is where, as someone has already compared the Elise!!?? would be much better as it has a relatively torquey(sp) engine and only around 750Kg to push around(now an Elise with that engine in would be a laugh). So I understand and agree with Ted when he says "Power is nothing without grunt", but don't understand Honda's "lean, mean and focused road going race car", when it should read "slightly chubby, perky, race car engine in a road going car".
Engines like this are all very well and good on the track pulling light car where you can keep them boiling, but not so good IMHO, when it comes to having fun on the road.

As for comparisons, how about a Scooby Turbo, slightly heavier (1234Kg for the 5dr), so maybe not so nimble/pointy, but just as grippy, more so in the wet, low down torque and power, can be imported from Europe for the same price as the Civic, best shopping car I ever had!!

Seat Leon felt too stodgy to even compare.

Just my opinion of course.

thommo41

23 posts

200 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
All this criticism is making me laugh! Do you guys wanna actually compare the Civic Type-R to any new car pitched at the same price in the same market? The only fair(ish) comparison is the guy that mentioned a scooby import for same(ish) money. But a scooby drinks more, has a (IMHO) poorer interior, costs more to look after, and has (in std. issue turbo format) poorer perfomrance.

OK, look at Clio 172's, MG ZR's, Toyota Corrola's, Ford Focus ST170... assuming UK sourced, which wins? Some will argue, especially you lot that drive the likes of the 172, but come on, can the 10's of 100's of motoring press out there be lying? NO! The CTR is fast, very fast in fact, for the money! Even against a std. Porsche Boxster it matches it performance wise. The brakes are another matter, to quote Top Gear "The best brakes ever on test"

Im not gonna argue about noise, hard ride etc.., its a Type-R, but no torque isn't and acceptable argument, it pulls better at low revs than the old Teg!

We could all spend 16K on something far more exciting, like a prostitute, or a go in a fighter plane, a 2nd hand , but brand new, pound for pound, shut up boys n gals, CTR is 'da bomb!

END OF STORY!

Alan

P.S. Who said they preferred a Escort GTi? Were u by any chance handled incorectly during birth?

thommo41

23 posts

200 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
OK, well I drive a STANDARD Honda Civic... Type-R (March 2002). Maybe this shocks you?
Sorry, I was just making a point referring to your post, if you want Escort Gti suspension, who am I 2 criticise! Applogies again, but a hard ride is expected and that what you get, so it cant really be an "issue" with the CTR, more of a "feature"?

Alan

cockers

590 posts

217 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
quote:

brand new, pound for pound, shut up boys n gals, CTR is 'da bomb!


It may be fast, but Peugeot owners may have a thing or two to say about feel and involvement, which are more important is you want to have fun, rather than just stress yourself out about being quickest off the line.

Anyway, you can get a Chimaera for 16k.

VTECDave

1,363 posts

217 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
Hmm, seems like the Civc-R or more widely, all the VTEC engined cars (VTi or type-r badged) are like marmite, your either love em or hate em.

Me? I love em!

I'm not going to have a rant and rave against the critics because I cannae be arsed. However, please name a modern Pug that can compare?

pikey

7,658 posts

220 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
quote:

Anyway, you can get a Chimaera for 16k.



Yes you can... but it's gonna cost a fair bit more than 90 every 12,000 miles services isn't it...

thommo41

23 posts

200 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
[Q] Anyway, you can get a Chimaera for 16k. [/Q]

That 16K will get me a NEW car will it? With 3 years warranty, rear seats WITH room, good boot, OK economy AND reliability?

Didn't think so...

PetrolTed

34,324 posts

239 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
quotequote all
Let's compare apples with apples shall we...?