RS200, behind the scenes
Discussion
Johnnytheboy said:
My old man, who was contracted to Ford Motorsport at Boreham for years in the 1980s and 1990s, was intimately involved as an insider on the RS200 project for ther seven year period while it was in existence. Not only did he end up running a succession of four road cars over 85,000 miles, effectively as 'endurance cars' for the factory, but he also wrote the Owner's Manual, much of the catalogue material, and ran the factory-sponsored RS200 Club too. Since Motorsport Director Stuart Turner was also godfather to my brother and myself, you might say that he was definitely an insider.
He ran three white cars, and one painted in Ferrari Rosso Red (long story ....), and confirms that the first white car was left hand drive.
He has now read the entire thread, and hopes that the following detailed comment may clear up several mistakes and misunderstandings :
Your Dad was one lucky man He ran three white cars, and one painted in Ferrari Rosso Red (long story ....), and confirms that the first white car was left hand drive.
He has now read the entire thread, and hopes that the following detailed comment may clear up several mistakes and misunderstandings :
Johnny's dad said:
i) The RS200 was not built by Reliant. It was built by Ford, the project director being Mike Moreton, who had already been the planning genius behind the Sierra RS Cosworth, and who would later go on to do the same job with the Sierra Cosworth 4x4, and the Escort RS Cosworth. He was later head-hunted by Tom Walkinshaw to master-mind the Jaguar XJ220 project.
Ford hired all the staff and fitters, Ford managed the plant. Reliant was not involved.
Reliant, however, provided most of the exterior body panels, which were built in GRP. The chassis, though, was provided by Arch, Ford/JKF did the engines themselves, and FF did the four-wheel-drive transmissions.
ii) The RS200 was not built at Tamworth, and never even went close to a three-wheeler, or the three-wheeler plant. It was built at a factory at Shenstone, which was six miles away. This was an ex-Reliant plant which had previously built engines for the three-wheelers, but which had been totally cleared. Ford found it while casting around in 1985 for somewhere to build the cars, and took up a lease for themselves. Reliant was not involved.
iii) Although the Reliant connection was not close, a number of the assembly staff had previously worked at Reliant, but had recently been maded redundant because Reliant was having a hard time. Some Reliant people also build moulds and mouldings for the body panels.
iv) Ford initiated, managed and completed the programme, with Mike Moreton at the helm. Reliant was never involved in the management of the project.
v) BL + Lancia staff certainly visited Shenstone, and drove cars, while the assembly project was active. There was nothing uniqie about this. Simply, it was done so that motorsport rivals could check on the car's progress towards homologation. It was all open and above board. Ford did the same thing themselves, for at this time one of the Boreham staff (John Griffiths) visited BMW (in connection with the M3), Lancia (Delta HF 4x4) and Audi (short-wheelbase Sport Quattro).
vi) There was no such thing as a 'Yamaha engine' in the Taurus SHO. Yamaha provided design/development advice only for such engines, but the final product was a Ford-USA project. Very very little work was ever done on the idea of producing a 2WD version of the RS200, especially once it became known that it was going to be a loss-maker. I certainly attended one meeting, chaired by Mike Moreton, in which certain possibilities were raised, but the project was tentative, very provisional, and no design work was ever carried out, Chief rally engineer John Wheeler was up to his neck in the RS200E project by then, and did not have any time.
vii) The 'factory fire' story is true, the fire being in the unit next door to the RS200 facility. It happened on a late Friday afternoon when the vast majority of staff had clocked off. Mike Moreton was one of only a handful of people still on the premises, and reputedly pushed some completed cars away from the wall in case it caught fire. It did not ....
viii) I can confirm that more than 200 sets of everything were certainly produced, but I can also confirm that because there was such a mighty rush to get the programme completed before the 1 February 1986 deadline, that some cars were by no means complete at final FIA inspection time. Ford knew this, the FIA inspectors knew this, and secrecy was not involved.
This was normal in Group B at the time - and I have authenticated evidence of the same being done in the MG Metro 6R4 and Audi Sport Quattro programmes, for instance.
ix) I can also confirm that Escort Twin-Cam homologation was achieved well in advance of the 1,000 cars being finished, but I can also confirm that more than 1,000 such cars were eventually built at the Halewood factory. The circumstances and - more important - the actual month-by-month production figures, have been published in more than one authoritative book on the subject.
I hope this helps - I could add more boring detail if anyone needs it.
Ford hired all the staff and fitters, Ford managed the plant. Reliant was not involved.
Reliant, however, provided most of the exterior body panels, which were built in GRP. The chassis, though, was provided by Arch, Ford/JKF did the engines themselves, and FF did the four-wheel-drive transmissions.
ii) The RS200 was not built at Tamworth, and never even went close to a three-wheeler, or the three-wheeler plant. It was built at a factory at Shenstone, which was six miles away. This was an ex-Reliant plant which had previously built engines for the three-wheelers, but which had been totally cleared. Ford found it while casting around in 1985 for somewhere to build the cars, and took up a lease for themselves. Reliant was not involved.
iii) Although the Reliant connection was not close, a number of the assembly staff had previously worked at Reliant, but had recently been maded redundant because Reliant was having a hard time. Some Reliant people also build moulds and mouldings for the body panels.
iv) Ford initiated, managed and completed the programme, with Mike Moreton at the helm. Reliant was never involved in the management of the project.
v) BL + Lancia staff certainly visited Shenstone, and drove cars, while the assembly project was active. There was nothing uniqie about this. Simply, it was done so that motorsport rivals could check on the car's progress towards homologation. It was all open and above board. Ford did the same thing themselves, for at this time one of the Boreham staff (John Griffiths) visited BMW (in connection with the M3), Lancia (Delta HF 4x4) and Audi (short-wheelbase Sport Quattro).
vi) There was no such thing as a 'Yamaha engine' in the Taurus SHO. Yamaha provided design/development advice only for such engines, but the final product was a Ford-USA project. Very very little work was ever done on the idea of producing a 2WD version of the RS200, especially once it became known that it was going to be a loss-maker. I certainly attended one meeting, chaired by Mike Moreton, in which certain possibilities were raised, but the project was tentative, very provisional, and no design work was ever carried out, Chief rally engineer John Wheeler was up to his neck in the RS200E project by then, and did not have any time.
vii) The 'factory fire' story is true, the fire being in the unit next door to the RS200 facility. It happened on a late Friday afternoon when the vast majority of staff had clocked off. Mike Moreton was one of only a handful of people still on the premises, and reputedly pushed some completed cars away from the wall in case it caught fire. It did not ....
viii) I can confirm that more than 200 sets of everything were certainly produced, but I can also confirm that because there was such a mighty rush to get the programme completed before the 1 February 1986 deadline, that some cars were by no means complete at final FIA inspection time. Ford knew this, the FIA inspectors knew this, and secrecy was not involved.
This was normal in Group B at the time - and I have authenticated evidence of the same being done in the MG Metro 6R4 and Audi Sport Quattro programmes, for instance.
ix) I can also confirm that Escort Twin-Cam homologation was achieved well in advance of the 1,000 cars being finished, but I can also confirm that more than 1,000 such cars were eventually built at the Halewood factory. The circumstances and - more important - the actual month-by-month production figures, have been published in more than one authoritative book on the subject.
I hope this helps - I could add more boring detail if anyone needs it.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Sunday 18th July 09:17
love the Rs200 and enjoy hearing about its decelopment please continue 
Aged Parent has now sent me this extra information, which may help flesh out the story:
Johnny's Dad said:
** Some correspondents claim that 'the entire centre section was Sierra' - which is not correct., On the original car, the windscreen and the door glass were taken from the Sierra, but that was all. Even they were changed, in detail, during development. The oiriginal concept was shared between Tony Southgate (F1 designer) and Boreham's John Wheeler, but productionisation was all to the Boreham team led by John Wheeler..
- The lease on the Shenstone factory ran out on May 31 1936, which meant that Ford had to get out by then. All unsold stock (which meant most of the cars and all the stores) had to be dispersed to other locations. The completed cars your correspondent saw at Two Gates (Tamworth) in June 1986 were there merely for short-time storage, and would shorlty have been moved on
- The lonely shot of Car No. 200 (we knew all of them by VIN/Chassis number) was taken just before the empty factory was finally handed back to the landlord.
- Most of the black-and-white pictures on the second page of this thread show the still-new cars being refurbished before sale, circa 1988 and 1989, at the Tickford premises in Bedworth, near Coventry. After the cars had originally been thrown together ar Shenstone, Ford quality inspectors demanded much extra work - particularly to paint and finish standards - before they would sign them off. Each of my four 'endurance' cars was collected from Bedworth - the red paint being applied to Car No. 192 after Tickford found that they had a lot of genuine Ferrari Rosso Red paint in their stores, following a different contract job on a Ferrari 288GTO !
- The final road cars to be delivered were much more civilised. My red car, No. 192, had electric window lifts, Recaro road-car seats, and a mobile phone plumbed in, for instance.
- There were six prototypes (all built at Boreham), two or three pre-production cars (built very slowly at Shenstone in mid-1985), and the rush of cars up to Ch. 200 were then produced between about September 1985 and 31 January 1986.
- The extra small lever alongside the main gear lever was only an optional fitment, and was to engage/disengage the centre diff. lock, and/or to disengage front-wheel-drive. Very few road cars had that fitted. None of mine did.
- The extra tail lamps fitted inside the rear body work were there for legal reasons, for in some nations there had to be rearward facing lights even when the rear bodywork was raised.
- [From memory, I believe the Shenstone factory was taken on a one year lease, from 1 June 1985 to 31 May 1986. The RS200 had only been unveiled in November 1984, at the Turin Show, there being just four prototype cars in existence at that point ....]
Johnnytheboy said:
The chassis, though, was provided by Arch, Ford/JKF did the engines themselves, and FF did the four-wheel-drive transmissions.
Arch...... wasn't this the same firm that built the tubs for Ford for the original GT40's back in the sixties.....?Johnnytheboy said:
I can also confirm that Escort Twin-Cam homologation was achieved well in advance of the 1,000 cars being finished, but I can also confirm that more than 1,000 such cars were eventually built at the Halewood factory. The circumstances and - more important - the actual month-by-month production figures, have been published in more than one authoritative book on the subject.
That does contradict what Bob Howe verbally told a group of us during a visit to Boreham in early 1987..... in that Ford never built more than 1000 Twinks, but all factory data had long since been destroyed...which no one had ever believed of course and it was just Ford keeping stum just in case it might still have got into trouble we pressumed 
Some years later, data recieved by the AVO Owners Club/RS Owners Club indicated 883 cars were made between Spring 1968 and late Spring 1971.
Does you Dad know which book these month by month figures were published in, as I will seek out a copy to buy...?
I'm guessing a reprint of one of the Graham Robson books maybe...??
Oh, and cool is it to have had Stuart Turner as your Godfather
aeropilot said:
Does you Dad know which book these month by month figures were published in, as I will seek out a copy to buy...?
I'm guessing a reprint of one of the Graham Robson books maybe...??
Oh, and cool is it to have had Stuart Turner as your Godfather
I'm sure if anyone had knowledge of Graham Robson's books it would be my father I'm guessing a reprint of one of the Graham Robson books maybe...??
Oh, and cool is it to have had Stuart Turner as your Godfather
Stuart Turner: yeah, except making a best man's speech at a wedding in front of a very accomplished public speaker like him's a bit nerve-wracking.
ETA, just found more info in my domestic email box:
Dad says that yes, indeed, it was the same Arch, who were well-known, trusted, and dependable in the motor racing industry for many years.
He also tells me that the month-by-month Twin-Cam figures were published in a Graham Robson book called FORD RS ESCORTS, THE COMPLETE STORY (page 29) , which was published a few years ago by Crowood Press, and may now be out of out of print.
Boreham built the first 25 cars.
Between March 1968 and September 1970, Halewood built 883 cars.
Twin Cam production at Halewood then carried on, slowly, to the spring of 1971, but detail figures have not emerged.
Small batches were also produced in Germany, and - of all places - in Australia.
Accordingly, and as already stated, the total round figure would be about 1,000 cars.
The month-by-month figures (but only up to September 1970) were supplied, in a sheaf of other, much less interesting, data from Halewood, by a recognised Ford historian at the very heart of Ford itself. In 1987 when Bob Howe pronounced, those figures were certainly not being circulated - they only appeared after what one might call the traditional '30 Year Rule' had applied ....
He also points out that the some of the so-called RS200 details published in one or more RS200 websites are not to be trusted - the four people who know most about RS200s are John Wheeler, Mike Moreton, Bob Howe and Graham Robson ....
Now to start another hare running. The same book also published a chart of the number of RS1600s buillt at Halewood before the AVO factory opened up at South Ockendon. A total of 295 RS1600s were built at Halewood.
Edited by Johnnytheboy on Monday 19th July 09:07
Johnnytheboy said:
I'm sure if anyone had knowledge of Graham Robson's books it would be my father
Message received ..... Must have a look around evilbay for a copy to update my earlier editions..... some of which are author signed
The Aussie's continued making their Twin Cam's from UK supplied 'kits', for a few years after Halewood production ended here, I think up to the end of '73 ish...?
At the time we guessed about 100 RS16's had been built at Halewood, which of course were just re-engined Twin Cams with the notch cutout of the rear bulkhead lip for the BDA. Surprised it was a high as almost 300 in the end then. Back in the 80's it wasn't uncommon to find some of these Halewood RS16's fitted with Lotus engines and being passed off as Twink's, but the cut lip was a giveaway. Then again, many Twinks had been renginned with BDA's for competition, but the lip cut was generally more crudely done in this case so it was usually possible to work out which way around it was when inspecting or judging a car.
Bob Howe was a real gent and I still have my as new copy of the RS200 sales brochure he gave me at Boreham and vividly recall the ride around the Boreham test track he gave me in a RS200
Edited by aeropilot on Monday 19th July 14:10
Johnny's dad said:
vi) There was no such thing as a 'Yamaha engine' in the Taurus SHO. Yamaha provided design/development advice only for such engines, but the final product was a Ford-USA project. Very very little work was ever done on the idea of producing a 2WD version of the RS200, especially once it became known that it was going to be a loss-maker. I certainly attended one meeting, chaired by Mike Moreton, in which certain possibilities were raised, but the project was tentative, very provisional, and no design work was ever carried out, Chief rally engineer John Wheeler was up to his neck in the RS200E project by then, and did not have any time.
Top thread, thanks for the info!
In summer 1987 one of Ford’s project leaders came to Swansea University, where I was staying for a few days. There were about 30 of us 16 year olds for a few days to learn about Swansea’s Engineering course.
He brought along an RS200 which was fantastic, and showed us some film of the development programme with Jackie Stewart test driving. He did a slalom course, in and out of cones which was filmed from the front so you could see how little the car rolled in cornering. Then he did the same course with a kerb in the middle, the car’s attitude was pretty much the same even bumping over this massive kerb!
Impressionable stuff, as I went on to be an Engineer
In summer 1987 one of Ford’s project leaders came to Swansea University, where I was staying for a few days. There were about 30 of us 16 year olds for a few days to learn about Swansea’s Engineering course.
He brought along an RS200 which was fantastic, and showed us some film of the development programme with Jackie Stewart test driving. He did a slalom course, in and out of cones which was filmed from the front so you could see how little the car rolled in cornering. Then he did the same course with a kerb in the middle, the car’s attitude was pretty much the same even bumping over this massive kerb!
Impressionable stuff, as I went on to be an Engineer
Fantastic thread.
Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
4parajon said:
Fantastic thread.
Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
Speaking for myself rather than channeling my father I'm pretty sure this was the case, then the price went up as soon as they were all sold. Dad toyed with buying the red one off them but chose not to for some reason.Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
Metro 6R4 was a sod to sell off by comparison though, as they weren't homologated for road use (or something). They were being flogged off for something silly like £12k.
What an excellent thread 
Thanks to all those who have taken the time to discuss the sort of details that us car nuts love to read about.
Can't offer much to this thread in terms of details other than I worked with a chap who's neighbour (Simon if I recall) used to work for Ford RS and was one of the mechanics on the rally programme with the RS200. It seems some well off chap purchased Stig B's actuall rally car (and subsiquently another road car which Simon was also working on) and asked Simon to carry out the work on both the cars to get them back in a usable condition. I used to get a running update on how the cars were getting on build wise until the first outing of Stigs car after the build was at the Silverstone classic event in 2009. I went along and saw the car and had a brief chat to the owner. However at that point in time he wasn't in the mood for chatting too much as the car had just thrown one of the aux belts whist running around the little course that was set up at Silverstone.
PS. Does anyone know if Fernhurst (the TVR garage) still has one sitting in the showroom? Seen it a couple of times upon visits down there and always thought if the numbers come up.......
Thanks to all those who have taken the time to discuss the sort of details that us car nuts love to read about.
Can't offer much to this thread in terms of details other than I worked with a chap who's neighbour (Simon if I recall) used to work for Ford RS and was one of the mechanics on the rally programme with the RS200. It seems some well off chap purchased Stig B's actuall rally car (and subsiquently another road car which Simon was also working on) and asked Simon to carry out the work on both the cars to get them back in a usable condition. I used to get a running update on how the cars were getting on build wise until the first outing of Stigs car after the build was at the Silverstone classic event in 2009. I went along and saw the car and had a brief chat to the owner. However at that point in time he wasn't in the mood for chatting too much as the car had just thrown one of the aux belts whist running around the little course that was set up at Silverstone.
PS. Does anyone know if Fernhurst (the TVR garage) still has one sitting in the showroom? Seen it a couple of times upon visits down there and always thought if the numbers come up.......
Gareth350 said:
Munter said:
guru_1071 said:
do they have the small 'trailer' lights fitted to the chassis so that the car remains 'sort of' legal if the back clamshell gets wreaked during a rally?
I never noticed them. I would guess it's because if the clam is lifted and you're broken down on a dark road you still need the lights/reflector to show to the rear. 
Edited by Gareth350 on Thursday 15th July 13:21
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfJy-nPyRCU
I'm sure it was after a French driver lost his boot and went on to win the rally, unfortunatly I can't remember the driver name. But he was then disqualified for not having rear lights on a night stage, as a precaution the majority of the teams retro-fitted them hence the small trailer ones.
Johnnytheboy said:
4parajon said:
Fantastic thread.
Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
Speaking for myself rather than channeling my father I'm pretty sure this was the case, then the price went up as soon as they were all sold. Dad toyed with buying the red one off them but chose not to for some reason.Does anyone know if there's any truth in the rumour that Ford had to seriously reduce the price of the last RS200's to get them off there books as they just would'nt sell after GrpB was binned. I'm sure I read/heard that Ford lost thousands on the last few just to get shut of them, what a buy they must have been.
Metro 6R4 was a sod to sell off by comparison though, as they weren't homologated for road use (or something). They were being flogged off for something silly like £12k.
I have a vague recollection it was well into late 1988 before they were all sold. I'm sure Bob H came to the AVO National Day in his 'company' 200 in 1988 and the sales programme was still operating out of Boreham then. Maybe it was 1987 when he came though - twas a long time ago - have to dig out the photos.
As for the 6R4's, yes, BL hadn't bothered with type approval or something for road use, but, there was a firm that bought up the last batch of new cars off of BL (30-40 cars) I recall and trimmed them all out and turned them into road cars..... but still struggled to sell them....can't remember who it was now...but I remember the ads in Motoring News for them.
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