Coffee. Grinder and Cafetiere or Pods in a machine
Discussion
RobbieTheTruth said:
Yeah I agree with this - and I've steered the discussion away from the original question (which was about convenience).
My answers have been based on the easiest way to get a really good espresso.
It's a frustrating and expensive hobby to get into. Basically, if you enjoy a lovely espresso based drink from a specialty coffee shop, and wanted to try and recreate that experience, it's really hard without spending a lot of money and doing research.
A good guideline for perfect extraction is as follows:
18g of ground coffee, yielding 36g of liquid, in 30 seconds, at 9bar pressure, at 92 degrees.
It's hard to find a machine for the home market that can do that.
CQueen is right. They have a Delonghi and know their expectations with it, but if you are new to this hobby, some of the marketing around these machines can convince you to go and spend £200 and expect to recreate what you get at a nice coffee shop.
Using that machine, the water would hit the coffee at 15bar, and go through the grinds in about 15 seconds, at an unstable temperature and the coffee is under-extracted. You're always going to get a poor shot out of it, which you can mask with frothed milk and sugar and it will taste similar to a Starbucks or something.
Perhaps we should start a thread on the cheapest and easiest way to extract perfect Espresso. It can be done on budget machines if you're prepared to make some modifications. I've had to go down this route as I can't afford the high end equipment.
As for Moka Pot on induction, I don't know. Can you get little plates that sit over an induction hob and transfer the heat somehow? EDIT - I see others have already confirmed this.
Indeed that matches what I’ve read re espresso really. A machine and better grinder (have a budget burr one currently) was going to be my goal once I reach a work milestone, but the dialing in of each bean sounds frustrating and tedious (unless you just get it right with one bean and stick to it). My answers have been based on the easiest way to get a really good espresso.
It's a frustrating and expensive hobby to get into. Basically, if you enjoy a lovely espresso based drink from a specialty coffee shop, and wanted to try and recreate that experience, it's really hard without spending a lot of money and doing research.
A good guideline for perfect extraction is as follows:
18g of ground coffee, yielding 36g of liquid, in 30 seconds, at 9bar pressure, at 92 degrees.
It's hard to find a machine for the home market that can do that.
CQueen is right. They have a Delonghi and know their expectations with it, but if you are new to this hobby, some of the marketing around these machines can convince you to go and spend £200 and expect to recreate what you get at a nice coffee shop.
Using that machine, the water would hit the coffee at 15bar, and go through the grinds in about 15 seconds, at an unstable temperature and the coffee is under-extracted. You're always going to get a poor shot out of it, which you can mask with frothed milk and sugar and it will taste similar to a Starbucks or something.
Perhaps we should start a thread on the cheapest and easiest way to extract perfect Espresso. It can be done on budget machines if you're prepared to make some modifications. I've had to go down this route as I can't afford the high end equipment.
As for Moka Pot on induction, I don't know. Can you get little plates that sit over an induction hob and transfer the heat somehow? EDIT - I see others have already confirmed this.
Edited by RobbieTheTruth on Tuesday 3rd November 11:06
CustardOnChips said:
I've had one of these for years and not had any problems with it. The one star review is a bit random.
This and a decent milk frotther makes 2 nice cups of coffee.
https://www.johnlewis.com/bialetti-venus-induction...
That’s good to know, I always go for recommendations vs reviews if possibleThis and a decent milk frotther makes 2 nice cups of coffee.
https://www.johnlewis.com/bialetti-venus-induction...
rwdaspirations said:
That looks good cheers. Not sure how I hadn’t come across something like that.
I’d read traditional Mokka Pots didn’t work on induction hobs, and those made specially for them had poor reviews so I gave up looking. I may be overthinking it though, as most stuff has bad reviews if you look hard enough.
Yeah trad Moka pots are made from Aluminium and induction hobs rely on the presence of a ferrous metal in the cookware to work.I’d read traditional Mokka Pots didn’t work on induction hobs, and those made specially for them had poor reviews so I gave up looking. I may be overthinking it though, as most stuff has bad reviews if you look hard enough.
The one from Ikea is stainless steel and is fine. I got my brother in law one. My one's just a cheapy from TK Maxx I think, also stainless steel. I really don't think there's any point in paying more than £20 for a Moka pot, they're such an intrinsically perfect, simple and utilitarian design.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stovetop-Espresso-Reusabl...
That's exactly what I have. Have had it maybe 8 years, i've never washed it, just gets a rinse after it's cooled down.
paralla said:
My previous machine was a Rancillio Sylvia which is a solid machine built to last but out of the box the temperature stability is lacking. I'm an electrical engineer so I added a PID loop controller to address the temperature stability issue and it gave me 10 years of great coffee before I replaced it with a lever spring machine.
When I searched for a link to share I see Rancillio now do a Sylvia Pro that includes PID temperature control. I can recommend Sylvia's for anyone wanting to get into the craft of making cafe quality coffee at home. There is a huge online community full of helpful information around Sylvia's. It won't break the bank or take up half your kitchen worktop. I couldn't bring myself to part with mine when it's replacement arrived, it's in storage up in the loft.
https://www.ranciliogroup.com/rancilio/silvia-pro/
Yeah - the Rancilio Silvia is similar to Gaggia Classic. Solid machine, built for life. Just like the Gaggia, temperature stability is lacking, but you can fit a PID to control it - and you can modify pressure down to 9bar.When I searched for a link to share I see Rancillio now do a Sylvia Pro that includes PID temperature control. I can recommend Sylvia's for anyone wanting to get into the craft of making cafe quality coffee at home. There is a huge online community full of helpful information around Sylvia's. It won't break the bank or take up half your kitchen worktop. I couldn't bring myself to part with mine when it's replacement arrived, it's in storage up in the loft.
https://www.ranciliogroup.com/rancilio/silvia-pro/
It's a great machine, and can be picked up used for £200.
They are machines, not kitchen appliances. If cared for, they'll last forever and can be fixed using standard parts.
I was excited about the Pro - then I learnt it was £1300!
rwdaspirations said:
Indeed that matches what I’ve read re espresso really. A machine and better grinder (have a budget burr one currently) was going to be my goal once I reach a work milestone, but the dialing in of each bean sounds frustrating and tedious (unless you just get it right with one bean and stick to it).
The dialing in can be annoying - but it's not the end of the world.For example, most beans hit that sweet spot somewhere between setting 12-20 on my Niche.
For a new bean, I'll start around 17. If it takes 20 seconds to pull that shot, I'll go a bit finer. You'll generally be nailing 30 seconds on your third shot.
Your first two practice shots are going to be better than what you'd get out of a Delonghi anyway so they don't go to waste! Just have them as a latte/americano.
RobbieTheTruth said:
Yeah - the Rancilio Silvia is similar to Gaggia Classic. Solid machine, built for life. Just like the Gaggia, temperature stability is lacking, but you can fit a PID to control it - and you can modify pressure down to 9bar.
It's a great machine, and can be picked up used for £200.
They are machines, not kitchen appliances. If cared for, they'll last forever and can be fixed using standard parts.
I was excited about the Pro - then I learnt it was £1300!
Crikey! I didn't look at the price of the Pro because I'm not in the market. Back in the day I think I put a temperature sensor, PID controller and solid state relay on my Sylvia classic for around £40.It's a great machine, and can be picked up used for £200.
They are machines, not kitchen appliances. If cared for, they'll last forever and can be fixed using standard parts.
I was excited about the Pro - then I learnt it was £1300!
paralla said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
Yeah - the Rancilio Silvia is similar to Gaggia Classic. Solid machine, built for life. Just like the Gaggia, temperature stability is lacking, but you can fit a PID to control it - and you can modify pressure down to 9bar.
It's a great machine, and can be picked up used for £200.
They are machines, not kitchen appliances. If cared for, they'll last forever and can be fixed using standard parts.
I was excited about the Pro - then I learnt it was £1300!
Crikey! I didn't look at the price of the Pro because I'm not in the market. Back in the day I think I put a temperature sensor, PID controller and solid state relay on my Sylvia classic for around £40.It's a great machine, and can be picked up used for £200.
They are machines, not kitchen appliances. If cared for, they'll last forever and can be fixed using standard parts.
I was excited about the Pro - then I learnt it was £1300!
I added a PID to my Gaggia for £100. Temperatre stability is so important for taste and it's annoying these machines don't already have them!
The Sylvia Pro also has a separate boiler for milk, but it's not worth £1300.
I was able to get a Gaggia Classic, modified to 9bar with pressure gauge mounted and a PID for around £350 which is much better value.
Lelit are doing some interesting machines now, affordable with PID included.
Nico Adie said:
Yeah trad Moka pots are made from Aluminium and induction hobs rely on the presence of a ferrous metal in the cookware to work.
The one from Ikea is stainless steel and is fine. I got my brother in law one. My one's just a cheapy from TK Maxx I think, also stainless steel. I really don't think there's any point in paying more than £20 for a Moka pot, they're such an intrinsically perfect, simple and utilitarian design.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stovetop-Espresso-Reusabl...
That's exactly what I have. Have had it maybe 8 years, i've never washed it, just gets a rinse after it's cooled down.
That’s great cheers. Appreciate all the suggestions, it sounds like I just need to crack on and buy one and not overthink it.The one from Ikea is stainless steel and is fine. I got my brother in law one. My one's just a cheapy from TK Maxx I think, also stainless steel. I really don't think there's any point in paying more than £20 for a Moka pot, they're such an intrinsically perfect, simple and utilitarian design.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stovetop-Espresso-Reusabl...
That's exactly what I have. Have had it maybe 8 years, i've never washed it, just gets a rinse after it's cooled down.
Mrs loves a trip to IKEA so I’ll cease the opportunity next time and grab one from there
RobbieTheTruth said:
The dialing in can be annoying - but it's not the end of the world.
For example, most beans hit that sweet spot somewhere between setting 12-20 on my Niche.
For a new bean, I'll start around 17. If it takes 20 seconds to pull that shot, I'll go a bit finer. You'll generally be nailing 30 seconds on your third shot.
Your first two practice shots are going to be better than what you'd get out of a Delonghi anyway so they don't go to waste! Just have them as a latte/americano.
That’s interesting, worth remembering when the day comes I succumb to the dream setup! For example, most beans hit that sweet spot somewhere between setting 12-20 on my Niche.
For a new bean, I'll start around 17. If it takes 20 seconds to pull that shot, I'll go a bit finer. You'll generally be nailing 30 seconds on your third shot.
Your first two practice shots are going to be better than what you'd get out of a Delonghi anyway so they don't go to waste! Just have them as a latte/americano.
otolith said:
The pressure gauge on the Sage thing I've got makes it easy to see when the grind needs adjusting for the bean (though you can infer it from the speed that the coffee is coming out too)
Yeah, you can infer from the speed. You want your shot to take 30 seconds at around 9bar - if it's quicker grind finer, if it's slower, grind coarser.Sage are making good machines. Their grinders are poor unfortunately.
The entry level for good espresso boils down to used Gaggia Classic/Rancilio Silvia vs Sage.
Gaggia/Rancilio are machines, not appliances and are built to last. They are manufactured using readily available parts and can be fixed by anyone.
Sage (Breville) used software and parts only available to them, and will need to be returned to Sage to fix.
When their machines launched, it was thought they were disposable appliances and they'd last 3-4 years, but they have stood the test of time and they appear to be reliable. I've not seen mass reports of them packing in, and you can get really good coffee out of them if you pair them with a great grinder.
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
ATG said:
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
That made me LOL and I do not do so lightly.Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
ATG said:
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Do keep up 
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
ATG said:
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
Don't get me started on toasters!Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
paralla said:
ATG said:
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
Don't get me started on toasters!Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
I'm off to look at the PH SANDWICH Toasters of choice.....
PushedDover said:
paralla said:
ATG said:
Coming to a car forum near you soon: which sandwich toaster?
Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
Don't get me started on toasters!Aeropress are great if you want to experience all the light, subtle flavours. But if I wanted that, I'd go out in the garden and lick the morning dew off a begonia. The tasting notes I want are "lane 3 of the M25 between junctions 6 and 7".
I'm off to look at the PH SANDWICH Toasters of choice.....
RobbieTheTruth said:
Yeah, you can infer from the speed. You want your shot to take 30 seconds at around 9bar - if it's quicker grind finer, if it's slower, grind coarser.
Sage are making good machines. Their grinders are poor unfortunately.
The entry level for good espresso boils down to used Gaggia Classic/Rancilio Silvia vs Sage.
Gaggia/Rancilio are machines, not appliances and are built to last. They are manufactured using readily available parts and can be fixed by anyone.
Sage (Breville) used software and parts only available to them, and will need to be returned to Sage to fix.
When their machines launched, it was thought they were disposable appliances and they'd last 3-4 years, but they have stood the test of time and they appear to be reliable. I've not seen mass reports of them packing in, and you can get really good coffee out of them if you pair them with a great grinder.
Hmm, I'm on my second dead Gaggia, but then I did own both for a long time and put a lot of coffee through them! We'll see how the grinder holds out - it appears to grind consistently and more than finely enough (I had to back it off for the current beans) though time will tell how durable it is and whether the performance is maintained. It's mostly just nice not to be emptying coffee from a separate grinder into the basket and making a mess while doing it. Sage are making good machines. Their grinders are poor unfortunately.
The entry level for good espresso boils down to used Gaggia Classic/Rancilio Silvia vs Sage.
Gaggia/Rancilio are machines, not appliances and are built to last. They are manufactured using readily available parts and can be fixed by anyone.
Sage (Breville) used software and parts only available to them, and will need to be returned to Sage to fix.
When their machines launched, it was thought they were disposable appliances and they'd last 3-4 years, but they have stood the test of time and they appear to be reliable. I've not seen mass reports of them packing in, and you can get really good coffee out of them if you pair them with a great grinder.
otolith said:
Hmm, I'm on my second dead Gaggia, but then I did own both for a long time and put a lot of coffee through them! We'll see how the grinder holds out - it appears to grind consistently and more than finely enough (I had to back it off for the current beans) though time will tell how durable it is and whether the performance is maintained. It's mostly just nice not to be emptying coffee from a separate grinder into the basket and making a mess while doing it.
It might be dead, but you can take it apart and fix it yourself using standard parts (I can't, but I can't put up a shelf!)When the Sage dies, that's probably it. You'll have to send it to Sage and if it's out of warranty, chances are it won't be worth fixing. That said, they seem good and reliable.
The Sage grinder grinds fine enough, but give you inconsistent particles compared with other grinders. Basically means some particles too big, some too small so the flavour profile is all over the place - which can sometimes make for a delicious shot!
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