RE: BMW M5 30 Jahre: Driven
Discussion
Quickmoose said:
I don't think it's pointless at all, many manufacturers are realising that weight saving is a good thing, and I haven't singled out the M5 (I mentioned hot hatches in my earlier post), and clearly the M5 is stil king of the crop of other fat perfromance saloons.
The 5 is a big 5 seater, it's not going to be a featherweight, but in terms of a bogstandard M5, it's not that it's heavy it's that it is TOO heavy, it's stuffed with too much stuff. It doesn't make sense..M... Motorsport. Do DTM BMWs have tis stuff? no of course they dont and an M car should not be a stripped out racer without leather and aircon...but it should reflect it's racing roots more than it does. I think.
Conversely if there was a hope in hell of keeping the thread on track.... a top of the line celerbration of limited numbers, that does not have it all is comical.
Maybe M5 buyers have changed witht he market, maybe thats the point I'm missing, maybe there is room for something more paired back, maybe CS and CSL could be spread across the model ranges...leaving M to remain the digitally enhanced, over eating yet fit and athletic option.
All M5's from the very first had leather and air con. It's what the car is and always has been. That's the point you are missing. And can you remind us what racing roots any generation of M5 has apart from the original M88 engine?The 5 is a big 5 seater, it's not going to be a featherweight, but in terms of a bogstandard M5, it's not that it's heavy it's that it is TOO heavy, it's stuffed with too much stuff. It doesn't make sense..M... Motorsport. Do DTM BMWs have tis stuff? no of course they dont and an M car should not be a stripped out racer without leather and aircon...but it should reflect it's racing roots more than it does. I think.
Conversely if there was a hope in hell of keeping the thread on track.... a top of the line celerbration of limited numbers, that does not have it all is comical.
Maybe M5 buyers have changed witht he market, maybe thats the point I'm missing, maybe there is room for something more paired back, maybe CS and CSL could be spread across the model ranges...leaving M to remain the digitally enhanced, over eating yet fit and athletic option.
If the M5 was a stripped out racer I wouldn't have bought one and I doubt many other owners would have done either. It never has been that and never will be.
Cheers,
Bryn.
Quickmoose said:
read my post again I've said of course the M should not come without aircon and leather...
Yes my apologies, so you did.Edited by Quickmoose on Friday 7th August 09:03
Now the racing roots of the M5 that you mentioned?
And I would genuinely be interested to hear how you think BMW should make the car lighter? What would you change/remove and what weight would you expect to save? Genuine question, not asking for the sake of argument.
Cheers,
Bryn.
bryn_p said:
Quickmoose said:
read my post again I've said of course the M should not come without aircon and leather...
Yes my apologies, so you did.Edited by Quickmoose on Friday 7th August 09:03
Now the racing roots of the M5 that you mentioned?
And I would genuinely be interested to hear how you think BMW should make the car lighter? What would you change/remove and what weight would you expect to save? Genuine question, not asking for the sake of argument.
Cheers,
Bryn.
It just wouldn't work and it doesn't need to go down that road.
It may be just under 2000kg's and get the odd review it's heavy however as many reviews if not more suggest it's brilliant and does exactly what it says on the tin.
Even 991 GT3's are being spec'd with park assist/phone/sat nav/moving lights etc., I bet most GT3 Rs's will have creature comforts and they are both really track focused cars.
BMW and others car marques have succeeded in creating comfortable monsters which appeal to the modern way of life.
Racing roots of 5, I'm sure google can assist there isn't much I know, but aside from that....Racing roots of the M 'brand' are deep and again easy to source.
What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
Quickmoose said:
Racing roots of 5, I'm sure google can assist there isn't much I know, but aside from that....Racing roots of the M 'brand' are deep and again easy to source.
What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
Ok but I wouldn't buy the car if that's what it was. I wonder how many other owners would say the same?What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
What you're describing is an M5 CSL I think, very niche market, probably too niche or they would have made it.
Cheers
Bryn.
Quickmoose said:
Racing roots of 5, I'm sure google can assist there isn't much I know, but aside from that....Racing roots of the M 'brand' are deep and again easy to source.
What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
And just who the hell would buy the above? You? If not this mythical 'lost market' of purists lamenting the end of life of the E28? Why even strive so hard to save 125-175kg? I add and remove far more than that in passengers and luggage every single week and can't even say I notice the slightest difference. I even sat in an F10 ring taxi with about 250kg of passengers onboard and whilst I'm sure the driver might tell the difference it wasn't as if the car dynamically just fell to pieces. Instead it did just what it was designed to do, spectacularly (i.e. carry 4 big blokes around the ring comfortably, sideways and grinning).What I'd remove?
Well I'd add carbon, thin the glass, massively thin the seats and remove much/all of the electric adjustment. Manual rear windows, no sunroof, reduce sound deadening - and thereby withdraw engine noise module....reduce thickness of carpet and leather, I'd like to have the materials list used...I'd go further... I bet there's and easy 125-175kg to be had there...
Quickmoose said:
hmm which again is what I wrote a few posts above...
I think M now doesn't stand for Motorsport it stands for massively powerful and comepetent lounging area.
But they produce a range of cars and when M turns its attention to a 5-series, that's the result, always has been, and always should be.I think M now doesn't stand for Motorsport it stands for massively powerful and comepetent lounging area.
If you want what you described above then buy an M3 CSL, 1M, etc.
I bet the F10 becomes the 'new E39' - at some point in the future every PH M5 thread will be saying how great it was and how M have lost their way since, etc.
When has M ever been anything other than fast and top specced? The only "Motorsport inspired" BMWs I can think of are the E46 CSL and E92 GTS.
Everything else I can think of with an M badge has just been the top spec car with extra power.
It seems on the terms here BMW cant win anyway. The car should be pared back to almost uncomfortable and specced worse than a base 5 series with windy windows, no soundproofing etc but being the top model in the range also has to be specced to the hilt with every optional extra as standard.
Everything else I can think of with an M badge has just been the top spec car with extra power.
It seems on the terms here BMW cant win anyway. The car should be pared back to almost uncomfortable and specced worse than a base 5 series with windy windows, no soundproofing etc but being the top model in the range also has to be specced to the hilt with every optional extra as standard.
theboss said:
I bet the F10 becomes the 'new E39' - at some point in the future every PH M5 thread will be saying how great it was and how M have lost their way since, etc.
I'm sure they will when the 2030 Z10 M5 weighs 3 tonnes and doesn't need a driver.Anyone have any historical reference pieces or the national/international regs for fully kitted out luxo barge championship.
Its ok don't bother, I'm in the minority, the majority just wants the badge kudos and the onward and ever increasing gadget list and the weight that comes with it.
Hey...What's your view on the 30 Jahre Boss?
just for s
ts and giggles we could discuss the topic... Quickmoose said:
Hey...What's your view on the 30 Jahre Boss?
just for sts and giggles we could discuss the topic...
Pretty much as I said earlier:just for s
ts and giggles we could discuss the topic... theboss all the way back on page 1 said:
The price is bonkers in this example because it's a limited edition variant with virtually every option. You can have fundamentally the same driving experience in a standard car for a little more than £60k after discounts.
So there - I think its too expensive - but the market will determine whether the limited edition badge is worth the premium or whether they will need to be discounted heavily. If you want a large high performance daily car then there are a hell of a lot of alternatives at £113k that couldn't even be contemplated at £60k for a standard one or £80k for a well specced one with CP. I think the latter price ranges are where the M5 belongs and they are compelling at that.Bar the above cost point, the review of it car and most of the ensuing discussion ahout characteristics, size, weight, fake sound etc. is relevant to any F10 M5.
theboss said:
Quickmoose said:
hmm which again is what I wrote a few posts above...
I think M now doesn't stand for Motorsport it stands for massively powerful and comepetent lounging area.
I bet the F10 becomes the 'new E39' - at some point in the future every PH M5 thread will be saying how great it was and how M have lost their way since, etc.I think M now doesn't stand for Motorsport it stands for massively powerful and comepetent lounging area.
king over the E9X http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=412...
The M5 is meant to be best of both worlds type of car. Something you can drive nice and easily in comfort, and when the mood takes you put your foot down and just eat up the road. Was it ever meant to be a stripped out, hardcore road racer? It wouldn't sell.
People on here talk about lightweight racers etc, and BMW offered the E46 CSL, and that was a sales struggle for them.
The market for stripped out road racers is small, majority of people want creature comforts such as satnav, air con, nice comfy leather seats etc.
I'm also pretty sure the legendary M car that was full of motorsport pedigree that everyone froths about and wishes BMW could return to - the E30 M3, had the highest standard spec of any E30, and was also just about the heaviest. However, judging by the values they are going for these days, this doesn't seem to have been an issue.
So, given that the M5 has always been a big comfy saloon not used in Motorsport, what has changed? Why are people suddenly expecting it to be a stripped out road racer - given that none of the competition (E63, XFR etc) are stripped out road racers either?
So, given that the M5 has always been a big comfy saloon not used in Motorsport, what has changed? Why are people suddenly expecting it to be a stripped out road racer - given that none of the competition (E63, XFR etc) are stripped out road racers either?
RB Will said:
the E60 is 500bhp/380lbft @ 7.5-8000rpm
at 5000rpm its only 320bhp/300lbft which aint a lot to get a 1850kg car moving quickly and most of the time you would be driving below that eg at normal cruising revs 3-3.5K you have 170bhp and 260lbft
the F10 is about 470bhp/470lbft @ 5000rpm it has more torque at 2.5k rpm than the E60 has at peak. This makes it go a lot faster a lot easier.
Going fast easily, this seems to be the major measure of a cars worth these days and quite frankly I find it boring. If I wanted a wall of torque which meant I could use the minimum effort to go fast, why would I want an M5? BMW offer plenty of other cars in their range that do exactly that.at 5000rpm its only 320bhp/300lbft which aint a lot to get a 1850kg car moving quickly and most of the time you would be driving below that eg at normal cruising revs 3-3.5K you have 170bhp and 260lbft
the F10 is about 470bhp/470lbft @ 5000rpm it has more torque at 2.5k rpm than the E60 has at peak. This makes it go a lot faster a lot easier.
This doesn't mean I want a stripped out M5 as that isn't what this car is about, I just think an M5 should be a bit harder to drive but offer the enthusiastic driver something a bit different\special over and above the rest of range. However it seems I am in the minority as all most people want is a 535d turned up to 11. I've drive an F10 M5 and that is exactly what it felt like whereas you'd never mistake the V10 E60 or any of the previous M5 powerplants for a remapped diesel.
Hi All,
At the start of this year I looked long and hard at the M5 as a possible daily driver. The deals on offer were stunning - £58k for a brand new car retailing at £76k. That got me thinking that this car is not exactly flying out of the showroom and why is that?
The main fault - and this is very subjective - is that of all of the divisions in BMW's huge empire, it is M Sport that should be special and differentiated, representing the essence of BMW. However, M Sport seems to have lost its way completely - how could you explain the X5M or the X6M in any other way? Their focus on units sold has come at the expense of credibility and desirability which was hard earned over a number of years. Even the M3/M4 is not quite as good this time around and that's the core..
It is a case of the purist vs. the accountant - the purist wants M version of the Z4 (I had a Z4M - brilliant, brutal and a bit stupid - perfect) or the upcoming 2 series. The accountant wants big volumes and that means SUVs.
On the car itself, test drives of the M5 left me cold. It wasn't special in any way other that it went like stink. It didn't make me feel that it was money well spent. The fact that the version tested here is £113k is hilarious - a candidate for the fastest depreciating asset in the UK? So I ended up buying a Maserati Ghibli, much slower, not as well developed but special, focused and charismatic. Everything that an M should be..
At the start of this year I looked long and hard at the M5 as a possible daily driver. The deals on offer were stunning - £58k for a brand new car retailing at £76k. That got me thinking that this car is not exactly flying out of the showroom and why is that?
The main fault - and this is very subjective - is that of all of the divisions in BMW's huge empire, it is M Sport that should be special and differentiated, representing the essence of BMW. However, M Sport seems to have lost its way completely - how could you explain the X5M or the X6M in any other way? Their focus on units sold has come at the expense of credibility and desirability which was hard earned over a number of years. Even the M3/M4 is not quite as good this time around and that's the core..
It is a case of the purist vs. the accountant - the purist wants M version of the Z4 (I had a Z4M - brilliant, brutal and a bit stupid - perfect) or the upcoming 2 series. The accountant wants big volumes and that means SUVs.
On the car itself, test drives of the M5 left me cold. It wasn't special in any way other that it went like stink. It didn't make me feel that it was money well spent. The fact that the version tested here is £113k is hilarious - a candidate for the fastest depreciating asset in the UK? So I ended up buying a Maserati Ghibli, much slower, not as well developed but special, focused and charismatic. Everything that an M should be..
Guvernator said:
Going fast easily, this seems to be the major measure of a cars worth these days and quite frankly I find it boring. If I wanted a wall of torque which meant I could use the minimum effort to go fast, why would I want an M5? BMW offer plenty of other cars in their range that do exactly that.
This doesn't mean I want a stripped out M5 as that isn't what this car is about, I just think an M5 should be a bit harder to drive but offer the enthusiastic driver something a bit different\special over and above the rest of range. However it seems I am in the minority as all most people want is a 535d turned up to 11. I've drive an F10 M5 and that is exactly what it felt like whereas you'd never mistake the V10 E60 or any of the previous M5 powerplants for a remapped diesel.
This doesn't mean I want a stripped out M5 as that isn't what this car is about, I just think an M5 should be a bit harder to drive but offer the enthusiastic driver something a bit different\special over and above the rest of range. However it seems I am in the minority as all most people want is a 535d turned up to 11. I've drive an F10 M5 and that is exactly what it felt like whereas you'd never mistake the V10 E60 or any of the previous M5 powerplants for a remapped diesel.
This is how I feel about M5sAs an aside, BMW did actually create a lighter-weight 5-series for motorsport homolagation purposes, but that was almost 40 years ago with the E12 530MLE. That even had drilled boot hinges to save a few extra grammes
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