RE: DS3 Rally Car Points To Citroen's WRC Future
Thursday 15th October 2009
These are the first images of the Citroen DS3 rally challenger, the car that could eventually become Sebastien Loeb's weapon for the 2011 WRC season.
DS3 Rally Car Points To Citroen's WRC Future
Spy shots reveal new Citroen DS3 R3 rally challenger
These spy photos, first published by Spanish motorsport site Racingpasión, show Citroen's new DS3 undergoing testing in France with junior driver Sebastien Ogier at the wheel.
The car is actually homologated for Group R3 regulations, meaning two-wheel drive and only limited modifications for the basic drivetrain and chassis. The basic shell and full rollcage will form the basis of Citroen's 2011 WRC car if planned changes to the regulations go ahead, although that car would get four-wheel drive and more power.
The 1600cc turbocharged engine would remain, although that would be likely to put it at a torque disadvantage from potential 2.0-litre rivals.
The biggest competition for the DS3 is likely to come from a new WRC Ford Fiesta, currently being developed by Malcolm Wilson's M-Sport team under S2000 regulations.
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Discussion
Having been a regular watcher of the WRC back in the day, I find it hard to understand why a manufacturer would bother enduring the costs of further development, when, as far as I can tell, the WRC is on its last legs. After all, am I right in saying that you can only get to see it in between replay 27 episode 3 of Top Gear 2005 and replay 39 episode 6 of Fifth Gear 2008?????
It's on Dave every Sunday there's a rally, with a programme at the same time on the Sundays when there isn't a rally. It's not been too bad actually, apart from the fact there's not enough cars, stupid Downturn. WRC will never die though, there'll always be a top level of rallying just like there'll always be a 'Forumla 1'.
zac510 said:
Do we have that model in the UK yet? I don't recognise it!
Love the duct taped up air filter too
Not yet, but you can read about the DS3 in the two PH news stories below...Love the duct taped up air filter too
PH spy exclusive: DS3 en route to Frankfurt
and...
Citroen DS3 - new pics
BBS-LM said:
Does anyone watch the WRC anymore?
Not many. Probably more to do with the fact that to watch it, you'd have to tolerate the total prick they have presenting it on Dave.Oh, and it's on Dave
Oh, and there's only 2 manufacturers in it now and Loeb wins all the time.
Apart from this year when he's crashed a couple of times.
BigTaf said:
It's gone down hill after they got rid of the killer Bs
yes they were leathal but what a sight
may be some thing the same but with less power
That's not totally true, Group A was still pretty entertaining and at least the cars were proper homologation specials so you could actually go to a dealership and buy something reasonable similar to the actual rally cars. The average person would be lucky to ever own anything remotely Group B related, probably only the Audi Quattro came close to being attainable, but comparing a normal Quattro to a Sport Quattro is like comparing an Impreza WRX to an Impreza WRC car, they're a bit similar but the connection is diluted somewhat. But with Group A it wasn't a totally outlandish idea for the average person to be able to buy a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Celica GT4, Impreza WRX or Lancer Evolution that was more or less only a stripped out interior and some upgraded parts away from being a balls out rally car (well it's a bit more involved than that but you know what I mean). They were like supercars for the average person, a bit of attainable genuine motorsport heritage, this is partly why they were/are so loved by so many. yes they were leathal but what a sight
may be some thing the same but with less power
Group B was great, but was ultimately getting a bit too removed from improved factory cars, which IMO is what rallying (and touring cars to get off topic...) has always been about, improving the breed through the fiercest and most demanding of competition, anyone can custom build a handful of cars to take all that rough and tumble, but to take a mass production vehicle and do it is something else, that's how reputations are forged, Audi still trade on it even though they abandoned rallying 20 years ago. The reason it's gone downhill since the WRC regulations were introduced is that the cars have been getting more and more removed from the road cars again, but unlike group B where at least it was getting progressively faster and crazier, it's instead getting slower and duller. It might be cheaper for the manufacturers and they might think it's great advertising but really it isn't because it's no longer interesting so not many can be bothered watching or even caring anymore.
Is anyone going to buy a DS3 because there is something that looks a bit like one in the WRC? Of course not, rally fans aren't that stupid and people who aren't rally fans barely notice or care. If there was a homologation model rally fans would buy it and talk about it, recommend it and give it respect on the road, kids would pester their fathers to buy the cool homologation car and maybe the dad will end up buy one or at least the next model down. That is why cars like the WRX, Integrale, Cosse and Evo were such iconic cult cars that put their manufacturers on the map. Imagine if Subaru only released the Impreza as a front wheel drive, naturally aspirated car, would anyone now even know the brand name Subaru? They were a pretty obscure and quirky brand until they released the WRX road car, now almost everyone knows Subaru. Would Audi be where they are today if they left the road going Coupe as a non turbo, five cylinder, front wheel drive? What if Ford only sold the rep model Cortinas and left the Lotus models as a racing only versions, imagine Lancia making the Stratos or Integrale for racing only, the rest of their range was pretty mediocre at best, they'd have been a laughing stock without those halo cars and look at them now, they've faded into total obscurity in most countries because they haven't made anything like it since.
But if the FIA must insist on making it slow and the manufacturers insist on avoiding the homologation requirements to save money, but they still want people to watch, I have the answer. Mandate rear wheel drive. The cars would be slower but more spectacular, it's no more difficult to make them RWD compared to making them AWD and since most of the cars aren't sold in AWD anyway it wouldn't matter than they aren't RWD in real life so the manufacturers dont really lose out in either cost or marketing in comparison to current regulations. The important thing is at least it would actually be fun to watch lurid mud splattering powerslides at ridiculous drift angles while an highly tuned NA engine screams it rings off at 9000rpm, even if it is a bloody Citroen hatchback, I can just squint my eyes and pretend it's a Lotus Sunbeam in the late 70s or something. Spectators would love it, drivers would love it, manufacturers would probably tolerate it if it was popular. There is no real downside, Subaru could even come back to rallying with their new RWD coupe thing.
SleeperCell said:
BigTaf said:
It's gone down hill after they got rid of the killer Bs
yes they were leathal but what a sight
may be some thing the same but with less power
That's not totally true, Group A was still pretty entertaining and at least the cars were proper homologation specials so you could actually go to a dealership and buy something reasonable similar to the actual rally cars. The average person would be lucky to ever own anything remotely Group B related, probably only the Audi Quattro came close to being attainable, but comparing a normal Quattro to a Sport Quattro is like comparing an Impreza WRX to an Impreza WRC car, they're a bit similar but the connection is diluted somewhat. But with Group A it wasn't a totally outlandish idea for the average person to be able to buy a Delta Integrale, Escort Cosworth, Celica GT4, Impreza WRX or Lancer Evolution that was more or less only a stripped out interior and some upgraded parts away from being a balls out rally car (well it's a bit more involved than that but you know what I mean). They were like supercars for the average person, a bit of attainable genuine motorsport heritage, this is partly why they were/are so loved by so many. yes they were leathal but what a sight
may be some thing the same but with less power
Group B was great, but was ultimately getting a bit too removed from improved factory cars, which IMO is what rallying (and touring cars to get off topic...) has always been about, improving the breed through the fiercest and most demanding of competition, anyone can custom build a handful of cars to take all that rough and tumble, but to take a mass production vehicle and do it is something else, that's how reputations are forged, Audi still trade on it even though they abandoned rallying 20 years ago. The reason it's gone downhill since the WRC regulations were introduced is that the cars have been getting more and more removed from the road cars again, but unlike group B where at least it was getting progressively faster and crazier, it's instead getting slower and duller. It might be cheaper for the manufacturers and they might think it's great advertising but really it isn't because it's no longer interesting so not many can be bothered watching or even caring anymore.
Is anyone going to buy a DS3 because there is something that looks a bit like one in the WRC? Of course not, rally fans aren't that stupid and people who aren't rally fans barely notice or care. If there was a homologation model rally fans would buy it and talk about it, recommend it and give it respect on the road, kids would pester their fathers to buy the cool homologation car and maybe the dad will end up buy one or at least the next model down. That is why cars like the WRX, Integrale, Cosse and Evo were such iconic cult cars that put their manufacturers on the map. Imagine if Subaru only released the Impreza as a front wheel drive, naturally aspirated car, would anyone now even know the brand name Subaru? They were a pretty obscure and quirky brand until they released the WRX road car, now almost everyone knows Subaru. Would Audi be where they are today if they left the road going Coupe as a non turbo, five cylinder, front wheel drive? What if Ford only sold the rep model Cortinas and left the Lotus models as a racing only versions, imagine Lancia making the Stratos or Integrale for racing only, the rest of their range was pretty mediocre at best, they'd have been a laughing stock without those halo cars and look at them now, they've faded into total obscurity in most countries because they haven't made anything like it since.
But if the FIA must insist on making it slow and the manufacturers insist on avoiding the homologation requirements to save money, but they still want people to watch, I have the answer. Mandate rear wheel drive. The cars would be slower but more spectacular, it's no more difficult to make them RWD compared to making them AWD and since most of the cars aren't sold in AWD anyway it wouldn't matter than they aren't RWD in real life so the manufacturers dont really lose out in either cost or marketing in comparison to current regulations. The important thing is at least it would actually be fun to watch lurid mud splattering powerslides at ridiculous drift angles while an highly tuned NA engine screams it rings off at 9000rpm, even if it is a bloody Citroen hatchback, I can just squint my eyes and pretend it's a Lotus Sunbeam in the late 70s or something. Spectators would love it, drivers would love it, manufacturers would probably tolerate it if it was popular. There is no real downside, Subaru could even come back to rallying with their new RWD coupe thing.
This is pistonheads right? Seems strange this story has had very little response..people are willing to come on and discuss, at length, what they hate about the new 911's lights(80% of posters will get now where near one) but when a story breaks about a motor sport that most can relate to..a story highlighting the fact WRC is going down the pan and no one bats an eyelid.
Dagnut said:
This is pistonheads right? Seems strange this story has had very little response..people are willing to come on and discuss, at length, what they hate about the new 911's lights(80% of posters will get now where near one) but when a story breaks about a motor sport that most can relate to..a story highlighting the fact WRC is going down the pan and no one bats an eyelid.
Says it all really, going down the pan and no takes an interest in it anymore. Destroyed by the people who govern it. Turning it into a business rather than a sport, taking all the enthusiasm out of the spectators, who at one time were the lifeblood of the sport. But there again I come frome an era of Minis Escorts Cortinas Chevettes etc Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff