RE: New Golf GTI: too little, too late?
Discussion
My view... the GTI is too expensive, not powerful enough, too heavy and uninspiring to look at. It offers very little to tempt me towards a VW showroom vs the rivals.
It feels as if VW have decided to play on their (perceived) upper-class image with the GTI and go after people who just want a VW/Audi product, rather than a hot-hatch. As such, it doesn't look like they're interested in competing with the rest of the market here and their recent sales figures appear to bear that out.
I hear that Focus ST demand is outstripping supply... if that's true it's impressive, I wonder how the Ren 265, VXR & co are faring?
It feels as if VW have decided to play on their (perceived) upper-class image with the GTI and go after people who just want a VW/Audi product, rather than a hot-hatch. As such, it doesn't look like they're interested in competing with the rest of the market here and their recent sales figures appear to bear that out.
I hear that Focus ST demand is outstripping supply... if that's true it's impressive, I wonder how the Ren 265, VXR & co are faring?
I love hot hatches, but personally i have to say that they have become too expensive
If people are paying around £30k they expect something that feels a lot more special than a family run-about (and i mean as an overall package, as i'm sure they do feel better to drive)... they often want a sports car / coupe
The stock answer from the industry is that 'the focus group research showed people wanted more...'
A great designer once said, no good design ever came out of listening to the customer!
This in itself is driving the upper end of hot(/uber)hatch genre into a niche...
My ideal hot hatch would be circa £18-22k (realistically this feels about what would be possible) around 200bhp and 1100-1200 kg... built well but not over engineered, basic spec with options, manual with a dsg-style option (if Toyota can do the GT86 for 25-27ish then this should be possible for a fwd hot hatch sharing many toolings with an already-established model). Buzzy, engaging, great fun with a slight tarmac rally Motorsport feel! (eg Focus RS)
People would say that this is a niche, but this article proves that a £30k+ version with 250hp full leather and toys and 1300-1500kg
to be honest the clio sport has had it pretty spot-on for the last 15 years... not sure about the new one, we'll see
JT
If people are paying around £30k they expect something that feels a lot more special than a family run-about (and i mean as an overall package, as i'm sure they do feel better to drive)... they often want a sports car / coupe
The stock answer from the industry is that 'the focus group research showed people wanted more...'
A great designer once said, no good design ever came out of listening to the customer!
This in itself is driving the upper end of hot(/uber)hatch genre into a niche...
My ideal hot hatch would be circa £18-22k (realistically this feels about what would be possible) around 200bhp and 1100-1200 kg... built well but not over engineered, basic spec with options, manual with a dsg-style option (if Toyota can do the GT86 for 25-27ish then this should be possible for a fwd hot hatch sharing many toolings with an already-established model). Buzzy, engaging, great fun with a slight tarmac rally Motorsport feel! (eg Focus RS)
People would say that this is a niche, but this article proves that a £30k+ version with 250hp full leather and toys and 1300-1500kg
to be honest the clio sport has had it pretty spot-on for the last 15 years... not sure about the new one, we'll see
JT
The golf gti, back in the day was the reachable aspirational car. Aspirations change, reality is a BMW, Audi or merc badge and pretty much everything else has fallen off the material want list for the aspiring sort. Times change and those halcyon days are very much replaced by cold rain and empty wallets for the many who once dreamed.
I just don't class the GTI Golf as a Hot Hatch anymore, when you look at the likes of VXR, Focus RS, and Renault-sport Megane and Clio, there in a diffrent league when it comes to performance and price point. I'm not saying the GTI is bad, just not hot, and at the Price VW are asking it should be bloody hot as hell.
And cars like this are not helping the Golf at all, just as fast, looks better, and allot cheaper to buy.
And cars like this are not helping the Golf at all, just as fast, looks better, and allot cheaper to buy.
Edited by BBS-LM on Thursday 28th February 13:15
good call! somehow i'd missed the Fiesta ST 'launch' http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...
usefully cheaper than the new Clio, similar stats, lets hope it drives well!
usefully cheaper than the new Clio, similar stats, lets hope it drives well!
currybum said:
johnyt993 said:
My ideal hot hatch would be circa £18-22k, around 200bhp and 1100-1200 kg... built well but not over engineered, basic spec with options, manual, Buzzy, engaging, great fun with a slight tarmac rally Motorsport feel!
Your new car Sir......currybum said:
johnyt993 said:
My ideal hot hatch would be circa £18-22k, around 200bhp and 1100-1200 kg... built well but not over engineered, basic spec with options, manual, Buzzy, engaging, great fun with a slight tarmac rally Motorsport feel!
Your new car Sir......That said, for a fun, engaging, buzzy, manual hot hatch that is nice and fast, you don't need to spend £22,000. Most hot hatches were like that in the 80's and 90's. And despite what may look like relatively meagre power outputs, they are still very quick today because of their low kerb weight. 106 Rallye/GTi, Saxo VTS, Golf GTi mkII, Scirocco GTX, Renault 5 Turbo, Citroen ZX 16v, Fiat Uno Turbo, Fiesta RS Turbo/XR2+XR2i, Honda CRX, 306 GTi6 etc etc...
And because they existed in an age when there was more to cars than leather seats, iPhone connectivity, 100 airbags, 10 ECU's and near two tonne kerb weight, they all feel stripped back and driver focused. They're all equipped with a proper manual transmission too, none of this fun-sapping flappy paddle nonsense.
There is much to be said for looking back, rather than forwards. I know car manufacturers could never make cars like they used to, even if they wanted to. But as a buyer, you still have the option of avoiding the EU mandated weight gain and emission rubbish and buying a proper hot hatch.
BSF said:
Too big
Too heavy
Too expensive
Too heavy
Too expensive.
remake the mk.1 or the mk.2 16v for £16-17k and you're back in business.
I think that's basically what the Up and Polo GTs are.Too heavy
Too expensive
Too heavy
Too expensive.
remake the mk.1 or the mk.2 16v for £16-17k and you're back in business.
Despite all this talk of 'what people want' and stuffing cars full of weight-adding tat, I do suspect that what most people are after is something straightforward, easy to live with, stylish but unpretentious, and most importantly cheap.
Two important comparisons to draw here, I think.
Firstly, compare the Focus with the Golf and it's obvious that the Focus does everything most people want of a car that size and is built up to a quality they find acceptable, but most crucially, it's cheaper. Cost is the driving factor here which is why Ford sells more Focuses than VW sells Golfs.
The second comparison is size. Ten years ago the Mk1 Focus was Britain's best-selling car. Now it's the Fiesta. The Focus has bloated to the size the Mondeo was ten years ago, whilst the Fiesta is now roughly the same size as a Mk1 Focus. From that we can deduce that most families fit into that size of car and aren't particularly fussed about anything much bigger.
With that in mind, I think we can now see the Fiesta and its ilk as occupying the same bracket the Focus once did. It's no surprise that Ford now rally it where once they used the Focus. As a result, that class of car seems the most obvious basis for a big-selling hot hatch to me.
The Focus, Golf and Megane are now the size of, and sell in similar numbers to the previous generation of Mondeo, Passat and Laguna. No wonder sales of the Mondeo et al have tailed off - so far as most potential buyers are concerned they're too big and expensive, although interestingly keen pricing makes the Vauxhall Insignia a perennial contender - they're selling loads of them, more than the much-trumpeted BMW 3-series, which is a very different prospect to all of these cars both in price and ownership experience.
Twincam16 said:
Firstly, compare the Focus with the Golf and it's obvious that the Focus does everything most people want of a car that size and is built up to a quality they find acceptable, but most crucially, it's cheaper. Cost is the driving factor here which is why Ford sells more Focuses than VW sells Golfs.
The Focus outsells the Golf here in the UK (probably due to the strange way that people see Ford as "British"), but the Golf is miles ahead in terms of sales when you look at the whole of Europe.http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2013/02/10/europe-f...
You mentioned sales of the Mondeo and similar sized cars have declined and I think one of the reasons for this is the emergence of soft-roaders, which hardly existed as a categeory 10 years ago. Maybe we need a Tiguan GTI.
Edited by excel monkey on Thursday 28th February 16:23
I had a MK II (8v), MK III (16v) and a MK IV. The MK IV was nothing other than trim changes. It was a horrible slow wallowy piece of junk and I suspect this is why it was the biggest seller. I also had a MK IV R32 and that was rubbish as well. The reduction in weight is what makes the new car look a huge improvement over every thing that has gone before it (MK III onwards).
I'd take one over anything that Ford, Vauxhall and Renault have got to offer.
I'd take one over anything that Ford, Vauxhall and Renault have got to offer.
excel monkey said:
The Focus outsells the Golf here in the UK (probably due to the strange way that people see Ford as "British"), but the Golf is miles ahead in terms of sales when you look at the whole of Europe.
http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2013/02/10/europe-f...
You mentioned sales of the Mondeo and similar sized cars have declined and I think one of the reasons for this is the emergence of soft-roaders, which hardly existed as a categeory 10 years ago. Maybe we need a Tiguan GTI.
God I hope not. We have a whole fleet of cars at work including soft-roaders and I absolutely dread being lumbered with them. Too bulky, driving position too high, blatantly too heavy when you take it through the corners, you feel like a mobile obstruction, you can't see anything once it gets within a metre of your car and they're a right PITA to park. Horrid things. Can't for the life of me work out why anyone in their right mind would want one over a Golf or suchlike other than 'marketing told them to', in which case they're an impressionable prat.http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2013/02/10/europe-f...
You mentioned sales of the Mondeo and similar sized cars have declined and I think one of the reasons for this is the emergence of soft-roaders, which hardly existed as a categeory 10 years ago. Maybe we need a Tiguan GTI.
Edited by excel monkey on Thursday 28th February 14:57
White Lightning said:
From my point of view its a price thing. Hot hatches used to quite easily attainable for young (ish) guys, you know early 20's with a decent job etc. For example the wedge shaped Civic Type R started at roughly 17k, my old Focus ST-3 was only 21k and that was top of the range. Now the same money won't even get you a bottom of the range new Focus ST. So i think to an extent they've priced themselves out of the very market they want to appeal to.
Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
I agreeDon't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
The local VW dealership had at one time, a Mk 6 Edition 35 in white on the forecourt. Pride of place. And so it should be considering the only car that was more expensive there was the owners Toureg R50. I can't remember the exact price, but well over £30k was the ask. Who has that kind of money for a VW? And if they do, at that price £30k buys you a better badge and probably a better drivers car (BMW 1 series with the 6 cylinder engines).
When I began my degree in 2004 (Mech Eng), hot hatches like the Civic Type R and Focus ST were, as you say, in the high teens in price. May be low £20k's. Today that only gets you in something on the next run down (Polo, Fabia etc). Cars that IMO just aren't big enough to be that practical. When I started my degree I could see myself in a few years (degree was 5 years btw) being in a car of the ST, Type R, GTi caliber. They seemed attainable. I know engineering isn't the first choice profession for the money in the UK, but by and large its not that bad either. You would think such machines would be attainable a few years into a good engineering job.
I am out of the loop being a PhD student, but my friends, having been at their respective companies for the best part of 4 years are well into the career side of things now. Most are closing in fast on the £40k PA mark. It's not a finance job in London wage, but it is fairly respectable wage given where we all live. Time for them to get a nice car? No chance. All bar 2 still rent and house share. Those who have bought cars have spent 10k tops (then struggled with the finance at times). The two who went for their own homes still roll around in the cars they had at uni and their parents gave them a helping hand onto the property ladder (which is fair enough really. bricks are better than metal).
I am not saying boo hoo look how bad we all have it. Far from it, for the most part life is comfortable. Can't ask for more than that. But at the same time, guys who are earning decent wedge wouldn't even entertain the thought of buying a new hot hatch. They're just too expensive. I mean how much do you have to earn before a decent house and a decent car is doable? from the above, much more than £40k.
PArt of me thinks they are too expensive because people or magazine are demanding more power, more grip. So we have powerful engines, large tyres to handle the grip and fancy things like LSD's. IMO you don't need it. Ford may come out on top this time...they've omitted such things. Their car isnt as fast round a track, but many have already said its the best bet on the actual road and the most entertaining, precisely because it isn't as sure footed as the others. Then there is all the electrical gubbins...though IMO, the vast majority of things can be contained in one box that does everything (ie it doesnt cost much to add MP3 or BT to a box that already has the bits to do it).
I may be biased, having had a few Golfs (including an R32, and GTi's) but I really can't see a problem with the pricing structure on this one. List prices on new cars are horrendously expensive across the board at the moment. Although the equivalent GTi is priced a little above the likes of the Focus ST and Megane Renaultsport, it will also retain a much better residual value.
I think a lot of people are stuck in the past, when a newly launched EP3 Civic Type R would cost around £15k. However, that was over a decade ago - its now 2013, and your absolute base model 1.4 Civic now costs £17k. Makes the range topping GTi look like its more value now..
I think a lot of people are stuck in the past, when a newly launched EP3 Civic Type R would cost around £15k. However, that was over a decade ago - its now 2013, and your absolute base model 1.4 Civic now costs £17k. Makes the range topping GTi look like its more value now..
I think people are getting confused as to what constitutes a hatch now. Modern Golf's are more family sized cars than compact hatches. Thats why there are now two models of car smaller. They becoming more real competitors to C segment sedans, and in those terms the pricing is reflected a little better
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