RE: BMW i3: Driven
Discussion
I am somewhat confused by the negativity on here. I think this is a car that makes a lot of sense and I'm a total petrol-head!
Range of a 100 miles is more than enough for most people even if they only charge at home. The car is actually pretty fast, RWD and seats 4 in comfort. BMW have even thought about home charging and will supply a a wall-hanging charge unit that will allow you to charge your car overnight in the garage. And a lot of thought has gone into how the car will be used and pertinent information. In stop / start traffic, it'll just do the moving for you (as an optional extra) genius!
If you have solar panels (we're thinking about it). This could be virtually free motoring in a car that has similar performance numbers to a Mini Cooper S. And I have to say never having to put fuel in it is a definite attraction. This car would be perfect for the Mrs and as a family runabout. We don't do big miles over a weekend, so it could be used nearly all of the time. IMHO it's close to the perfect second car.
I wonder how much it will be
Range of a 100 miles is more than enough for most people even if they only charge at home. The car is actually pretty fast, RWD and seats 4 in comfort. BMW have even thought about home charging and will supply a a wall-hanging charge unit that will allow you to charge your car overnight in the garage. And a lot of thought has gone into how the car will be used and pertinent information. In stop / start traffic, it'll just do the moving for you (as an optional extra) genius!
If you have solar panels (we're thinking about it). This could be virtually free motoring in a car that has similar performance numbers to a Mini Cooper S. And I have to say never having to put fuel in it is a definite attraction. This car would be perfect for the Mrs and as a family runabout. We don't do big miles over a weekend, so it could be used nearly all of the time. IMHO it's close to the perfect second car.
I wonder how much it will be
McWigglebum4th said:
Terminator X said:
Utter s
te, what on earth do people see in electric cars?!
TX.
Not going to petrol stationste, what on earth do people see in electric cars?!TX.
TX.
Unreal1066 said:
Has any PHer driven or own a Nissan Leaf. Could they give a review. Stuff like instant torque and how they use the vehicle. Most peoples journeys I would of thought would be about 10 miles maximum to work and back which would be ok for an electric car.
Well we've got a Nissan Leaf in the family and to be honest it's brilliant!We recently replaced my car with a new diesel E-Class Estate because we wanted something big, comfortable and fairly refined. I then saw a great PCP deal on last year's Nissan Leaf, so I ordered that to replace the wife's car. The cost of the deal was what really attracted me, as well as trying something different, but now we've been using the Leaf for 6 months we both love it. The instant torque is great fun for the traffic light drag race, although it soon tails off once you get to around 30mph, but that really doesn't matter around town. However, the best thing about it is just how refined the experience is when driving it. Pulling away perfectly smoothly without any engine rattle and the absence of smelly fuel is something that really needs to be experienced. It honestly feels like the future when driving it. If the i3 is better than this, and it is supposed to be, then I'm really looking forward to giving it a try.
The monthly payment on my Merc is more than twice what we pay for the Leaf, but we both prefer driving the Nissan, it's just a nicer experience. In fact I've just sold my Alfa GTV as it was no longer getting used as the weekend car.
Until recently I was using the Leaf for my commute in to Birmingham, which was a round trip of about 80 miles. If I drove very gently I could just about do this on one charge. However, as Birmingham offer free electric charging in their council car parks, I didn't need to worry about that and I could drive the car like an absolute loon without worrying about the range as I knew it'd be fully charged up for my return home later. It was lovely doing a daily commute of 80 miles knowing it was only costing me a couple of quid in electricity. On the motorway I could shoot past the people hyper-milling in the slow lane not caring about my efficiency. As already mentioned the car accelerated more than fast enough and would also do an indicated 100mph if I wanted to.
As well as Birmingham car parks there are more and more places where you can charge up and every single one that I've used has been free. I've also had a charger fitted in my drive way paid for by the Government.
Now you've probably noticed that I said I used to use the Leaf to commute, as I've changed jobs and the new commute is longer, I'm back in the Merc for the daily grind. This has pleased the wife as she now has daily use of it, but not for long, as my new firm have agreed to install a charger at the work car park, and then I can get back to my electric fun.
Having now owned an electric car, I can't see us ever not having one, albeit in addition to a normal car. Stuff any ecological or emissions arguments, an electric car is a good alternative on its own merits.
rlengthorn said:
Well we've got a Nissan Leaf in the family and to be honest it's brilliant!
We recently replaced my car with a new diesel E-Class Estate because we wanted something big, comfortable and fairly refined. I then saw a great PCP deal on last year's Nissan Leaf, so I ordered that to replace the wife's car. The cost of the deal was what really attracted me, as well as trying something different, but now we've been using the Leaf for 6 months we both love it. The instant torque is great fun for the traffic light drag race, although it soon tails off once you get to around 30mph, but that really doesn't matter around town. However, the best thing about it is just how refined the experience is when driving it. Pulling away perfectly smoothly without any engine rattle and the absence of smelly fuel is something that really needs to be experienced. It honestly feels like the future when driving it. If the i3 is better than this, and it is supposed to be, then I'm really looking forward to giving it a try.
The monthly payment on my Merc is more than twice what we pay for the Leaf, but we both prefer driving the Nissan, it's just a nicer experience. In fact I've just sold my Alfa GTV as it was no longer getting used as the weekend car.
Until recently I was using the Leaf for my commute in to Birmingham, which was a round trip of about 80 miles. If I drove very gently I could just about do this on one charge. However, as Birmingham offer free electric charging in their council car parks, I didn't need to worry about that and I could drive the car like an absolute loon without worrying about the range as I knew it'd be fully charged up for my return home later. It was lovely doing a daily commute of 80 miles knowing it was only costing me a couple of quid in electricity. On the motorway I could shoot past the people hyper-milling in the slow lane not caring about my efficiency. As already mentioned the car accelerated more than fast enough and would also do an indicated 100mph if I wanted to.
As well as Birmingham car parks there are more and more places where you can charge up and every single one that I've used has been free. I've also had a charger fitted in my drive way paid for by the Government.
Now you've probably noticed that I said I used to use the Leaf to commute, as I've changed jobs and the new commute is longer, I'm back in the Merc for the daily grind. This has pleased the wife as she now has daily use of it, but not for long, as my new firm have agreed to install a charger at the work car park, and then I can get back to my electric fun.
Having now owned an electric car, I can't see us ever not having one, albeit in addition to a normal car. Stuff any ecological or emissions arguments, an electric car is a good alternative on its own merits.
We have a Nissan Leaf as well, and I find it brilliant for my commute into London. Honestly, once you get over the range anxiety (read better planning) it's an absolute hoot to drive. I get to charge at work or my hone, or I use one of the on street chargers if i'm out in town for the evening. The great thing is that if you have a full charge you can hoon about without caring about economy or how much it's costing you. Acceleration from 0-30ish is unreal - think of how a radio control car accelerates - it's pretty much the same. It also comes with a lot of kit as standard, and even has an app you can use to check the charge and control the climate control before you start driving. Another plus is that on a cold winters morning, you can just get in the car and floor it without having to worry about warming up the engine.We recently replaced my car with a new diesel E-Class Estate because we wanted something big, comfortable and fairly refined. I then saw a great PCP deal on last year's Nissan Leaf, so I ordered that to replace the wife's car. The cost of the deal was what really attracted me, as well as trying something different, but now we've been using the Leaf for 6 months we both love it. The instant torque is great fun for the traffic light drag race, although it soon tails off once you get to around 30mph, but that really doesn't matter around town. However, the best thing about it is just how refined the experience is when driving it. Pulling away perfectly smoothly without any engine rattle and the absence of smelly fuel is something that really needs to be experienced. It honestly feels like the future when driving it. If the i3 is better than this, and it is supposed to be, then I'm really looking forward to giving it a try.
The monthly payment on my Merc is more than twice what we pay for the Leaf, but we both prefer driving the Nissan, it's just a nicer experience. In fact I've just sold my Alfa GTV as it was no longer getting used as the weekend car.
Until recently I was using the Leaf for my commute in to Birmingham, which was a round trip of about 80 miles. If I drove very gently I could just about do this on one charge. However, as Birmingham offer free electric charging in their council car parks, I didn't need to worry about that and I could drive the car like an absolute loon without worrying about the range as I knew it'd be fully charged up for my return home later. It was lovely doing a daily commute of 80 miles knowing it was only costing me a couple of quid in electricity. On the motorway I could shoot past the people hyper-milling in the slow lane not caring about my efficiency. As already mentioned the car accelerated more than fast enough and would also do an indicated 100mph if I wanted to.
As well as Birmingham car parks there are more and more places where you can charge up and every single one that I've used has been free. I've also had a charger fitted in my drive way paid for by the Government.
Now you've probably noticed that I said I used to use the Leaf to commute, as I've changed jobs and the new commute is longer, I'm back in the Merc for the daily grind. This has pleased the wife as she now has daily use of it, but not for long, as my new firm have agreed to install a charger at the work car park, and then I can get back to my electric fun.
Having now owned an electric car, I can't see us ever not having one, albeit in addition to a normal car. Stuff any ecological or emissions arguments, an electric car is a good alternative on its own merits.
I truly believe electric cars will take off once the charging infrastructure is more mainstream (i.e. fast chargers everywhere), and it wouldn't be for it's environment credentials. We also have a Cayenne, and honestly we prefer to drive around in the leaf than that as it's just so much more practical.
Looking forward to test driving the i3 one day, and if it makes sense financially, i'd definately consider getting one.
Robert Burns said:
SrMoreno said:
If you're going to count the carbon cost of generating electricity, surely you have to count the cost of extracting, refinining and transporting petrol/diesel in order to get a meaningful comparison.
Well really the transportation of petrol/diesel is the only cost.Extracting and the refining of oil isn't really for petrol and diesel as petrol and diesel are not the top product, You use the energy to heat the crude oil to extract each part from it as different temperatures. You get tar, heavy oil and motor oils before you get diesel and petrol is still further up the distillation column as you get jet fuel before petrol.
So really its the heating to make the first product is the cost as petrol comes from the natural cooling inside the distillation column
So for both, the calculations have so many variables as to be largely meaningless - hence sticking to tailpipe emissions.
Whatever your view on the "Green" thing, I'd argue is more of a policy to push social change - There's little doubt we'd have as much progress in technology without the push to "be green".
Prof Prolapse said:
SrMoreno said:
If you're going to count the carbon cost of generating electricity, surely you have to count the cost of extracting, refinining and transporting petrol/diesel in order to get a meaningful comparison.
+1As for the emissions during a lifetime, how the f
k are they supposed to work that out? What if your local power supply comes from coal, nuclear or tidal? What if your garage mechanic drives a fking diesel or cycles to work? What if you go through 30 sets of tyres rather than 10? Even if it's even standardised by the EU it will tell you 2/3rds of fk all about the true environmental cost of a car. I think it's also worth bearing in mind environmental burdens go outside of CO2 emissions. Hypothetically (and I suspect it's actually b
ks) a diesel might release less CO2 during it's lifetime, but how much st is it throwing into your urban atmosphere? Diesel exhaust particulate is nasty and nano-sized particulate in urban areas has long been established as detrimental to human health. PM10 measurements (used in urban areas to calculate the air burden) are well known to be linked to cardiovascular incidents along with links to immunity issues and cancers. It's complicated. Far too complicated to just bang on about CO2 or just get a simple numerical figure.
Now I must get back to my 3 litre straight six or my no-catalyst motorcycle...
The more i think about it, the more i think BMW might just make this work you know!
Afterall, lots of people feel more comfortable spending £30k on a BMW, rather than £30k on a Nissan, and they are masters of making an ordinary car feel desirable to the average punter. No, they aren't going to fly out the door like Bling'd up Minis, but i think they might actually sell enough to get a foot in the door!
So, the only remaining question, does PH want to hire me as a "technology consultant" to enable them to keep abreast of this technology revolution?? ;-)
Afterall, lots of people feel more comfortable spending £30k on a BMW, rather than £30k on a Nissan, and they are masters of making an ordinary car feel desirable to the average punter. No, they aren't going to fly out the door like Bling'd up Minis, but i think they might actually sell enough to get a foot in the door!
So, the only remaining question, does PH want to hire me as a "technology consultant" to enable them to keep abreast of this technology revolution?? ;-)
Terminator X said:
McWigglebum4th said:
Terminator X said:
Utter ste, what on earth do people see in electric cars?!
TX.
Not going to petrol stationste, what on earth do people see in electric cars?!TX.
TX.
2 Tax per mile with a GPS tracker
Forgive me and my poor maths, but going by this quote:
What are the consequences to the UK's power generation and distribution system when 25 million cars are plugged in between the hours of 6+7 at night after work? Seeing as at the moment it struggles when everyone switches their 2KW/h kettles on for an ad break after a popular TV show?
Or will we have dedicated high capacity electricity production+distribution system that can be conveniently and easily taxed negating all the financial advantages (and that's what matter to 99% of us) in the first place?
Chris said:
Charging times from a normal plug are around four to five hours, but can be reduced to 30 minutes with a 50kW/h system.
Even going by the more pessimistic 5 hour charge time, can a domestic plug really provide 5Kw/h to charge a car?What are the consequences to the UK's power generation and distribution system when 25 million cars are plugged in between the hours of 6+7 at night after work? Seeing as at the moment it struggles when everyone switches their 2KW/h kettles on for an ad break after a popular TV show?
Or will we have dedicated high capacity electricity production+distribution system that can be conveniently and easily taxed negating all the financial advantages (and that's what matter to 99% of us) in the first place?
PH Article said:
BMW claims that the i3's emissions are zero in full electric mode, but they've actually nearer 80 g/km - that being the cost of generating the power you pull from your plug. It makes me wonder if a Mini D, built, bought and used in the UK might still be a slightly greener choice over a 15-year lifetime.
Well no, because you are not factoring in the energy used to extract, refine, transport and deliver the diesel are you? If you want to play silly buggers with CO2 figures, you need to be consistent in your logic.BMW stylists clearly spotted an Audi A2 the day they were asked to design this. Not a bad thing, I'm a fan.
From the Press Pack:
Another handy optional extra is the Traffic Jam Assistant that allows drivers to delegate the tasks of pulling away, braking and steering to keep the vehicle in lane
So you can sleep in it then in the London rush hour. Does it have an alarm to wake you up when you arrive at work?...
Another handy optional extra is the Traffic Jam Assistant that allows drivers to delegate the tasks of pulling away, braking and steering to keep the vehicle in lane
So you can sleep in it then in the London rush hour. Does it have an alarm to wake you up when you arrive at work?...
Unreal1066 said:
Has any PHer driven or own a Nissan Leaf. Could they give a review. Stuff like instant torque and how they use the vehicle. Most peoples journeys I would of thought would be about 10 miles maximum to work and back which would be ok for an electric car.
I own a Leaf. Done over 30,000 miles. I posted a review last year at 15,000 miles.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=114...
It works very well within the range limitations (worst case on a very cold day around 50 miles). The i3 will do better.
Vs the Nissan Leaf:
Thank you to the Leaf owners above for their reviews of their cars - very interesting and refreshing to read how those in the right circumstances can benefit from such a car.
I have to say that after all the build-up in the motoring media, the i3 initially seems like a massive let-down compared to existing EVs: more expensive & little range improvement, if any, over the Leaf. Then it has less space but more interesting construction blah, blah.
Hopefully it is an incremental step to something more useful: I find it rather depressing when big advances, like the CFRP structure, lead to only small practical improvements in their early iterations. Obviously this is often the nature of progress.
Thank you to the Leaf owners above for their reviews of their cars - very interesting and refreshing to read how those in the right circumstances can benefit from such a car.
I have to say that after all the build-up in the motoring media, the i3 initially seems like a massive let-down compared to existing EVs: more expensive & little range improvement, if any, over the Leaf. Then it has less space but more interesting construction blah, blah.
Hopefully it is an incremental step to something more useful: I find it rather depressing when big advances, like the CFRP structure, lead to only small practical improvements in their early iterations. Obviously this is often the nature of progress.
Interesting to see how the Leaf's price has fallen: drive the deal will now sell us the cheapest version for £18,200.
Presumably this represents a significant loss for Nissan and I'm not sure if it reflects commercial failure of the concept, but it certainly suggests the i3's pricing is punchy.
Presumably this represents a significant loss for Nissan and I'm not sure if it reflects commercial failure of the concept, but it certainly suggests the i3's pricing is punchy.
The Luds on here need to understand this is the future of motoring. Legislation, social and political will is pushing it this way. Yes, the initial development in this area is expensive, unappealing to "enthusiasts", but like all initial loss leaders in a market place it will appeal to the first-to-marketers who are happy to spend over and above to enjoy latest techno geekery.
Enthusiasts raging against the dying of the light dont matter dick. Frankly, they never have and never will.
Enthusiasts raging against the dying of the light dont matter dick. Frankly, they never have and never will.
I have a thought, which probably won't be very insightful, but hell, it's hot, I've had a few cheeky glasses of white, so here goes. My thought is about what if we could really make the best out of all of these car company alliances? Renault - Zoe, Twizy, a good set of electric car plans. Nissan - the Leaf, enough said previously in this thread, but IMHO pretty convincing. Caterham raced a Nissan engined car at Le Mans, and Nissan plan an all-electric assault next year. Renault/Alpine alliance. Alpine/Caterham alliance. Caterham use Ford engines at present, both Zetec and Duratech. Ford have a beautiful little 1.0 Ecoboost, again enough said in this thread. Caterham 7 is amazing and light, at 515 or 535kg depending on S3 or SV sizes - btw I own a 7, and get both phenomenal performance an pretty good MPG.
So putting the above paragraph jumble of thoughts loosely together, what do I get?
The 7 is too compromised for most, certainly as a first car, but Colin Chapman's ethos of adding lightness was spot on.
The new Caterham/Alpine car will also be light. Imagine Nissan, Alpine and Caterham engineers working on an Ecoboost 1 litre sub 1000kg car AND an all electric version, AND a 2.0 R400 engined variant. What a lovely choice.
Right, another glass of wine. Anyone want to add to my thoughts?
So putting the above paragraph jumble of thoughts loosely together, what do I get?
The 7 is too compromised for most, certainly as a first car, but Colin Chapman's ethos of adding lightness was spot on.
The new Caterham/Alpine car will also be light. Imagine Nissan, Alpine and Caterham engineers working on an Ecoboost 1 litre sub 1000kg car AND an all electric version, AND a 2.0 R400 engined variant. What a lovely choice.
Right, another glass of wine. Anyone want to add to my thoughts?
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