Replica watches
Discussion
I have been looking for a new watch recently and I came across this site!
I am not intending to buy one of these as I’ve already spotted what I want (A Hamilton or Raymond Weil for anyone interested)
This site came up as I was trawling through the numerous watch sites out there and thought it may well make a good topic on here!
What do you all think? On one hand why not! They look good and are reasonably priced. On the other hand they will be poor quality and you will always know you’re wearing a fake and there are plenty of well priced good watches out there!
Discuss
Mod note: link removed, as it breaks PH Ts & Cs
I am not intending to buy one of these as I’ve already spotted what I want (A Hamilton or Raymond Weil for anyone interested)
This site came up as I was trawling through the numerous watch sites out there and thought it may well make a good topic on here!
What do you all think? On one hand why not! They look good and are reasonably priced. On the other hand they will be poor quality and you will always know you’re wearing a fake and there are plenty of well priced good watches out there!
Discuss
Edited by MonkeyMatt on Saturday 7th August 20:59
Mod note: link removed, as it breaks PH Ts & Cs
Edited by Kinky on Monday 9th August 13:50
MonkeyMatt said:
I have checked the rules! This is not my website and I am not selling anything! just discussing the issue of replica/fake wtaches!
the rules said:
When using this website you agree not to:
5. Post any material which infringes the copyright, other intellectual property rights or any other rights of any other person.
and 5. Post any material which infringes the copyright, other intellectual property rights or any other rights of any other person.
the rules said:
10.Post material or link to any material that is unlawful or which support, promote or incite unlawful acts etc.
Your link is to a site selling illegal fake watches. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/rules.htm
It's fine discussing fake watches if you think thats a good idea on a forum of people that like watches.
Just not posting links to sites selling them.Edited by el stovey on Saturday 7th August 12:56
Well until it is removed...
I bought a PO from one of these sites before I went for the real deal as I didn't know if 45mm would be too big. Decent quality but anyone who knows their watches will know it's not genuine.
Did the job though and a week later I bought the real deal.
A year on... I just gave it a wind and it doesn't work. I'm sure the real one will 10 years from now so it's a false economy anyway!!
I bought a PO from one of these sites before I went for the real deal as I didn't know if 45mm would be too big. Decent quality but anyone who knows their watches will know it's not genuine.
Did the job though and a week later I bought the real deal.
A year on... I just gave it a wind and it doesn't work. I'm sure the real one will 10 years from now so it's a false economy anyway!!
It's a topic that usually turns into a flamewar, we just need Motorrad to turn up and sling 'criminal scum' accusations at me and it'll be just like the old days. 
Actually, replica watches are a way for an enthusiast to have a play with some of the iconic Swiss watches without needing to be as wealthy as some of the enthusiasts here. I hate to point out the obvious, but we've got regular contributors to the forum with Rolexes, JLCs, IWCs, Franck Mullers, Vacherons, APs, Pateks, hell even a Richard Mille
Most of these enthusiasts and members have a *collection*, FFS. And again, hating to point out the obvious, but that means a large bunch of us are actually pretty wealthy. By 'normal person' standards, anyone with more than a thousand quid's worth of watches is well-off…
So it's easy to throw stones. And counterfeit goods are illegal and morally wrong, at the end of the day. There is no argument, the bottom line is that counterfeiting is wrong.
However it's fun, and cheap. And it keeps the genuine watchmakers on their toes. I've railed against Swiss firms taking generic £200 off-the-shelf mechanical movements, engraving the rotor, giving the movement a new 'calibre number' and bunging it in a case with their badge on the dial and selling it for £2,000. That, to me, is as immoral as the counterfeiting - but one is illegal, whereas the other is just customer exploitation (most buyers don't realise what markup some of these big brands are making). It's a different argument, so not really for this thread.
The thing about the 'replicas' is that there's a good trade in 'high-end' replicas. Where a Swiss watchmaker has sold a model that is one of the cynical 'badge-engineering' jobs I refer to above, there's usually a 'replica' that is part-for-part virtually identical. This means you can buy one and pull it apart, learn how they work, etc. for low cost, and then learn which *real* watches are poor value for money and which ones offer genuine innovation / mechanical excellence. It also has resulted in the rebirth of the manufacture movement, and it's something I absolutely LOVE REPLICAS FOR. Yes, I've said it. I'm convinced that the replica market is the reason for this, and I'm chuffed to bits. More and more of the top Swiss brands are realising they have to build their own movements now to (a) not have the Chinese roll out a part-for-part replica and sell it for $300, and (b) be seen as 'top-end'.
That's good!
I can write more about the 'good' replicas but it'll start a war. But believe me, there are some 'replicas' that are damn fine mechanical watches in their own right, and if lubricated and checked (final QC that the Chinese never do) on receipt, will certainly last at least 5 years of regular use, and with servicing even more. It's got pretty silly, and the self-righteous here simply won't have the experience since they wouldn't countenance buying one to find out.
But I do - because I was worried about being scammed when I wanted to buy a *genuine* watch. So I bought some 'top-end' replicas, knowing there will be small differences, and set about pulling them apart to find the differences. I learned three things from this - (a) stuff about mechanical movements, which I wanted to learn anyway, (b) how to identify a fake from a genuine watch, even the extreme replica top end, so I could buy the genuine I wanted from a watch dealer without fear, and (c) how impressive the replicas actually were.
My replicas are now in various states of disassembly - I used them to learn how the ETA 2836 and ETA 2892 movements work, but the Rolex replicas have bracelets that are good enough to use on a genuine watch! I don't have a Rolex any more so don't need that ability though
The conclusion is that certain watch replicas are so good that you will need to be an expert to tell the difference, so you really have to be careful when buying second hand. Even the dealers get caught out sometimes. But if you're a watch geek, learning the fine detail that will let you tell the difference is part of the fun. If you're just after a status symbol, and buying second hand, then all I can say is 'beware'. The replicas are very, very, very good. And don't listen to someone saying that 'it's obvious when it's fake' when they've never tried out a modern top-end replica. It's NOT obvious. Hublot learnt this the hard way… their own ADs couldn't tell the difference and the manufacture had to send out an apologetic letter to all ADs telling them where to look, and finally admitting that once the counterfeiters had changed the rotor bearing and balance adjuster on the Liaoning 7750, nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Caveat emptor! But the flip side of this is that if you do get a replica by accident, it's likely to work nearly as well as a genuine watch. It's all about the final QC - if you buy anything used, get it serviced right away and you'll be fine
Actually, replica watches are a way for an enthusiast to have a play with some of the iconic Swiss watches without needing to be as wealthy as some of the enthusiasts here. I hate to point out the obvious, but we've got regular contributors to the forum with Rolexes, JLCs, IWCs, Franck Mullers, Vacherons, APs, Pateks, hell even a Richard Mille
Most of these enthusiasts and members have a *collection*, FFS. And again, hating to point out the obvious, but that means a large bunch of us are actually pretty wealthy. By 'normal person' standards, anyone with more than a thousand quid's worth of watches is well-off…So it's easy to throw stones. And counterfeit goods are illegal and morally wrong, at the end of the day. There is no argument, the bottom line is that counterfeiting is wrong.
However it's fun, and cheap. And it keeps the genuine watchmakers on their toes. I've railed against Swiss firms taking generic £200 off-the-shelf mechanical movements, engraving the rotor, giving the movement a new 'calibre number' and bunging it in a case with their badge on the dial and selling it for £2,000. That, to me, is as immoral as the counterfeiting - but one is illegal, whereas the other is just customer exploitation (most buyers don't realise what markup some of these big brands are making). It's a different argument, so not really for this thread.
The thing about the 'replicas' is that there's a good trade in 'high-end' replicas. Where a Swiss watchmaker has sold a model that is one of the cynical 'badge-engineering' jobs I refer to above, there's usually a 'replica' that is part-for-part virtually identical. This means you can buy one and pull it apart, learn how they work, etc. for low cost, and then learn which *real* watches are poor value for money and which ones offer genuine innovation / mechanical excellence. It also has resulted in the rebirth of the manufacture movement, and it's something I absolutely LOVE REPLICAS FOR. Yes, I've said it. I'm convinced that the replica market is the reason for this, and I'm chuffed to bits. More and more of the top Swiss brands are realising they have to build their own movements now to (a) not have the Chinese roll out a part-for-part replica and sell it for $300, and (b) be seen as 'top-end'.
That's good!
I can write more about the 'good' replicas but it'll start a war. But believe me, there are some 'replicas' that are damn fine mechanical watches in their own right, and if lubricated and checked (final QC that the Chinese never do) on receipt, will certainly last at least 5 years of regular use, and with servicing even more. It's got pretty silly, and the self-righteous here simply won't have the experience since they wouldn't countenance buying one to find out.
But I do - because I was worried about being scammed when I wanted to buy a *genuine* watch. So I bought some 'top-end' replicas, knowing there will be small differences, and set about pulling them apart to find the differences. I learned three things from this - (a) stuff about mechanical movements, which I wanted to learn anyway, (b) how to identify a fake from a genuine watch, even the extreme replica top end, so I could buy the genuine I wanted from a watch dealer without fear, and (c) how impressive the replicas actually were.
My replicas are now in various states of disassembly - I used them to learn how the ETA 2836 and ETA 2892 movements work, but the Rolex replicas have bracelets that are good enough to use on a genuine watch! I don't have a Rolex any more so don't need that ability though
The conclusion is that certain watch replicas are so good that you will need to be an expert to tell the difference, so you really have to be careful when buying second hand. Even the dealers get caught out sometimes. But if you're a watch geek, learning the fine detail that will let you tell the difference is part of the fun. If you're just after a status symbol, and buying second hand, then all I can say is 'beware'. The replicas are very, very, very good. And don't listen to someone saying that 'it's obvious when it's fake' when they've never tried out a modern top-end replica. It's NOT obvious. Hublot learnt this the hard way… their own ADs couldn't tell the difference and the manufacture had to send out an apologetic letter to all ADs telling them where to look, and finally admitting that once the counterfeiters had changed the rotor bearing and balance adjuster on the Liaoning 7750, nobody would be able to tell the difference.
Caveat emptor! But the flip side of this is that if you do get a replica by accident, it's likely to work nearly as well as a genuine watch. It's all about the final QC - if you buy anything used, get it serviced right away and you'll be fine
Taobao is your friend if you're after tat like this.
I went down that road once in the past. 40 quid Speedmaster, wooden box, 'papers', the lot, delivered. It was passable, although I never had the inclination to wear it outside the house.
It served it's purpose as a 'test run', and I'll have a Speedmaster at some point in my life
I went down that road once in the past. 40 quid Speedmaster, wooden box, 'papers', the lot, delivered. It was passable, although I never had the inclination to wear it outside the house.
It served it's purpose as a 'test run', and I'll have a Speedmaster at some point in my life
iAlex said:
Markymark69 said:
Having purchased so many "high end" replicas were you not in danger of having wasted the price of a decent watch purchased from a decent dealer?
I see what you mean but I think you are missing his point a little. Still to each his own.
Edited by Markymark69 on Saturday 7th August 19:56
Markymark69 said:
iAlex said:
Markymark69 said:
Having purchased so many "high end" replicas were you not in danger of having wasted the price of a decent watch purchased from a decent dealer?
I see what you mean but I think you are missing his point a little. Still to each his own.
Edited by Markymark69 on Saturday 7th August 19:56
It's made my taste in watches veer towards those with specialist (i.e. not just a standard ETA ébauche or one 'upgraded' with better parts) movements, since the counterfeiters have a ready supply of ETA copy movements but can't, for example, copy a JLC Reverso Chronograph movement (hell, JLC themselves had enough trouble building the thing
). The only 'special' complication that the counterfeiters have managed to clone reasonably successfully, AFAIK, is Franck Muller's 'Crazy Hours' complication. However the easiest fakes to spot are those of watches that don't use a basic ETA calibre in the first place, since the 'replica' will try its hardest to copy the genuine by using an ETA movement or, in the cheaper models, one of the cheaper Chinese movements.For example, a current Rolex Daytona contains Rolex's own movement which has running seconds at 6. The only automatic chronograph movement available to the counterfeiters is the ETA 7750, made in clone form by the Liaoning Watch Factory. But the 7750 has greater subdial spacing and running seconds at 9. So the movement can't be used without bolting a bunch of extra wheels to move the subdials around (this is the *only* watch with enough demand for the counterfeiters to go to the extent of *modifying* a movement, BTW, all the others use what's available or not at all). Hence all the fake modern Daytonas are fatter than the genuine due to the movement being taller, and they break regularly.
However many modern Breitling chronos simply use 7750 chronos, upgraded with 'better parts' by Breitling, and the counterfeiters have a field day with these. They've got the movements and they can copy the metalwork easily. Hence spotting a fake Breitling chrono is harder. Usually it's things like the date wheel or the luminous paint.
And I really don't care what some random thinks of me because I know this - I think it's important to spread the information around so that others do not get conned, or end up buying counterfeit watches when they really want the real thing. Even the dealers admit they sometimes get conned themselves. Painting me as some character who only buys fakes and doesn't have any real watches is idiotic. I don't have anything to prove but if messing around with a couple of replicas has done anything to me, it has made me *more* enthusiastic about horology and I've ended up buying more watches as a result. As I said, there's no moral defence and I'm not trying to defend my actions, hence I admit them. I don't care, because I've got plenty of good genuine watches that I love
I'm fortunate enough to be able to.Though your point is valid if you've only got a grand to spend and you buy two replicas and a cheap quartz genuine when you could have had a second hand Omega. But that wasn't the case with me.
cyberface said:
Markymark69 said:
iAlex said:
Markymark69 said:
Having purchased so many "high end" replicas were you not in danger of having wasted the price of a decent watch purchased from a decent dealer?
I see what you mean but I think you are missing his point a little. Still to each his own.
Edited by Markymark69 on Saturday 7th August 19:56
It's made my taste in watches veer towards those with specialist (i.e. not just a standard ETA ébauche or one 'upgraded' with better parts) movements, since the counterfeiters have a ready supply of ETA copy movements but can't, for example, copy a JLC Reverso Chronograph movement (hell, JLC themselves had enough trouble building the thing
). The only 'special' complication that the counterfeiters have managed to clone reasonably successfully, AFAIK, is Franck Muller's 'Crazy Hours' complication. However the easiest fakes to spot are those of watches that don't use a basic ETA calibre in the first place, since the 'replica' will try its hardest to copy the genuine by using an ETA movement or, in the cheaper models, one of the cheaper Chinese movements.For example, a current Rolex Daytona contains Rolex's own movement which has running seconds at 6. The only automatic chronograph movement available to the counterfeiters is the ETA 7750, made in clone form by the Liaoning Watch Factory. But the 7750 has greater subdial spacing and running seconds at 9. So the movement can't be used without bolting a bunch of extra wheels to move the subdials around (this is the *only* watch with enough demand for the counterfeiters to go to the extent of *modifying* a movement, BTW, all the others use what's available or not at all). Hence all the fake modern Daytonas are fatter than the genuine due to the movement being taller, and they break regularly.
However many modern Breitling chronos simply use 7750 chronos, upgraded with 'better parts' by Breitling, and the counterfeiters have a field day with these. They've got the movements and they can copy the metalwork easily. Hence spotting a fake Breitling chrono is harder. Usually it's things like the date wheel or the luminous paint.
And I really don't care what some random thinks of me because I know this - I think it's important to spread the information around so that others do not get conned, or end up buying counterfeit watches when they really want the real thing. Even the dealers admit they sometimes get conned themselves. Painting me as some character who only buys fakes and doesn't have any real watches is idiotic. I don't have anything to prove but if messing around with a couple of replicas has done anything to me, it has made me *more* enthusiastic about horology and I've ended up buying more watches as a result. As I said, there's no moral defence and I'm not trying to defend my actions, hence I admit them. I don't care, because I've got plenty of good genuine watches that I love
I'm fortunate enough to be able to.Though your point is valid if you've only got a grand to spend and you buy two replicas and a cheap quartz genuine when you could have had a second hand Omega. But that wasn't the case with me.
I was just wondering at the point of it all, but as you say it has served you well, its all good.
It's all good fun AFAIAC. Naughty, but I wanted to know whether the so-called 'Asian ETA' (always sold as 'Swiss ETA' on counterfeit seller websites) clones were anything like the real thing. Anyone with a CNC mill and a skilled operator, I have been reliably told, can replicate watch bracelets, clasps, cases, etc. The tricky bit is the movement and I did research into it all, but nothing beats seeing the actual item in real life.
Basically, well-known ETA movements, still widely used by top-tier watchmakers when not employing one of their own manufacture movements (if they have any - many well-known 'luxury' brands used nothing but ETA until recently, and as I've already said I reckon the Chinese counterfeiters had a hand in these watchmakers becoming proper manufactures, which is great IMO), have been copied part-by-part by *legitimate* Chinese watch companies, and often used as their 'top-end' movement in their more expensive domestic watches. It's only recently, with the tourbillon madness in China, that home-grown movements have been marketed *in China* as the best quality. Anyway, out of the ones I know:
ETA 2824-2 : Near-exact copies are made by Sea-Gull and Hangzhou (both export-licenced Chinese watch makers - Sea-Gull probably better known due to having developed a tourbillon and being much larger in volume (they make 25% of all mechanical watch movements made each year globally. Think about that), also selling watches branded with their own name, whereas Hangzhou are smaller and not seen much in the West, with the Russian market being the largest export IIRC).
ETA 2836-2 : Loads about, but not easy to trace to a particular Chinese factory i.e. the movements aren't catalogue-order from Liaoning, Shanghai, etc. General belief is that Sea-Gull makes most of them, but there's a bit of vagueness surrounding this movement. Used widely for Rolex fakes, since Rolex use their own robust movements, and the ETA 2836 is approximately the same size, has the same functions, and is comparably robust. An interesting new fashion has emerged last year, with the Sea-Gull 2836 clone in modified form (additional bridges, coloured wheels, etc.) being 'dressed up' to look superficially like a Rolex 3135 movement. I've seen both side by side (indeed, out of the only two replicas I now possess, one of these has this Rolex-lookalike movement, as I was blown away at the idea of the Chinese going as far as trying to make an *obviously* different movement look *superficially* like a genuine Rolex movement, when the only people it would fool are people who wouldn't have a Rolex caseback tool to check the watch in the first place - it just seems really weird) and they're obviously different, so I'm not sure who they're trying to kid…
ETA 2892-2 : Sea-Gull *do* make a clone, the ST18. It's virtually identical to the real thing, and a Swiss company called Valanvron apparently buys the ST18 from Sea-Gull and assembles it to be sold as a 'Swiss Made' movement.
ETA/Valjoux 7750 : Liaoning Watch Factory make the majority of the 7750 clones, but apparently the more upmarket Shanghai Watch Factory make some too. The Liaoning clones are part-interchangeable too, and can be embellished with the same modifications used by high-end Swiss marques, as Hublot has found out with its attempts to teach ADs how to distinguish a real Big Bang from a counterfeit replica Big Bang (it's apparently very hard…)
It wouldn't be nearly so interesting if the Chinese had merely bought or stolen existing genuine ETA tooling to make these ETA clone movements. The fact is that the Chinese factories listed *haven't* done this - they've had to build their tooling from scratch, to create a very close clone of a complex mechanical device. As a result of having to create their own fabrication and assembly machinery, some of the movements are 'improved' - my cynicism suggests that any alteration to the clone movement would be purely to make manufacturing easier or cheaper, or to make the finished movement more reliable.
If you're interested in how different the Chinese clone movements are to the real thing, then this writeup on TZ-UK may be of interest. A watch enthusiast was given two Sea-Gull movements, the ST21 (clone of ETA 2824-2) and ST18 (clone of ETA 2892-2), and he disassembles them with a genuine ETA 2824-2 alongside for reference. Confusingly, he refers to the ST21 as an ST24, and the ST18 as an ST26 (which is apparently widely done, presumably due to dodgy documentation from an early large OEM supplier). It's worth checking out - there are differences, quality control is clearly inferior with the Chinese version, but actual timekeeping performance is very good. Weirdly, the author is a philosophy lecturer at Oxford (my degree and uni) and funnily, given the topic we're discussing, he specialises in moral philosophy
Edit - here's another comparison of Chinese clone vs ETA, including Sea-Gull, Hangzhou and ETA - on the Watchuseek forum
Some consider the crackdown by Swatch on easy ETA ébauche availability to OEMs, including well known and respected watchmakers, abuse of a privileged position and could strangulate the market in favour of Swatch. Anti-competitive, in other words. I don't know the Swiss govt's view on this, but the clones are being imported into Switzerland and re-finished to be sold as 'swiss movements' so I doubt a shortage of 'ETA' movements will happen soon. The only thing is that they'll be clones.
And what I took away from all of my experiences with replica watches was simply that you can get a near-identical clone of a steel ETA-based watch from the counterfeiters. They won't be shoddy 'fakes' and 'easy to tell' - they'll be mechanically identical, to all intents and purposes. However in every case, the Chinese product has inferior quality control. From simple stuff like not lubricating a few of the parts, to dirt / grit on the plates / bridges, to hairs embedded in the glue used to fix the pallet jewels
- there's an overall lack of attention to detail and dedication to quality. Hence there's a real chance your 'replica' will be DOA when you receive it, or will stop working 3 months later. However, assuming it's not actually *broken* on receipt, a dismantle, thorough clean and reassembly with correct lubrication will result in (regarding these ETA-clone powered watches) a watch which will perform as well as a genuine Swiss ETA powered watch.
ETA: another link to a clone vs ETA picture comparison thread
Basically, well-known ETA movements, still widely used by top-tier watchmakers when not employing one of their own manufacture movements (if they have any - many well-known 'luxury' brands used nothing but ETA until recently, and as I've already said I reckon the Chinese counterfeiters had a hand in these watchmakers becoming proper manufactures, which is great IMO), have been copied part-by-part by *legitimate* Chinese watch companies, and often used as their 'top-end' movement in their more expensive domestic watches. It's only recently, with the tourbillon madness in China, that home-grown movements have been marketed *in China* as the best quality. Anyway, out of the ones I know:
ETA 2824-2 : Near-exact copies are made by Sea-Gull and Hangzhou (both export-licenced Chinese watch makers - Sea-Gull probably better known due to having developed a tourbillon and being much larger in volume (they make 25% of all mechanical watch movements made each year globally. Think about that), also selling watches branded with their own name, whereas Hangzhou are smaller and not seen much in the West, with the Russian market being the largest export IIRC).
ETA 2836-2 : Loads about, but not easy to trace to a particular Chinese factory i.e. the movements aren't catalogue-order from Liaoning, Shanghai, etc. General belief is that Sea-Gull makes most of them, but there's a bit of vagueness surrounding this movement. Used widely for Rolex fakes, since Rolex use their own robust movements, and the ETA 2836 is approximately the same size, has the same functions, and is comparably robust. An interesting new fashion has emerged last year, with the Sea-Gull 2836 clone in modified form (additional bridges, coloured wheels, etc.) being 'dressed up' to look superficially like a Rolex 3135 movement. I've seen both side by side (indeed, out of the only two replicas I now possess, one of these has this Rolex-lookalike movement, as I was blown away at the idea of the Chinese going as far as trying to make an *obviously* different movement look *superficially* like a genuine Rolex movement, when the only people it would fool are people who wouldn't have a Rolex caseback tool to check the watch in the first place - it just seems really weird) and they're obviously different, so I'm not sure who they're trying to kid…
ETA 2892-2 : Sea-Gull *do* make a clone, the ST18. It's virtually identical to the real thing, and a Swiss company called Valanvron apparently buys the ST18 from Sea-Gull and assembles it to be sold as a 'Swiss Made' movement.
ETA/Valjoux 7750 : Liaoning Watch Factory make the majority of the 7750 clones, but apparently the more upmarket Shanghai Watch Factory make some too. The Liaoning clones are part-interchangeable too, and can be embellished with the same modifications used by high-end Swiss marques, as Hublot has found out with its attempts to teach ADs how to distinguish a real Big Bang from a counterfeit replica Big Bang (it's apparently very hard…)
It wouldn't be nearly so interesting if the Chinese had merely bought or stolen existing genuine ETA tooling to make these ETA clone movements. The fact is that the Chinese factories listed *haven't* done this - they've had to build their tooling from scratch, to create a very close clone of a complex mechanical device. As a result of having to create their own fabrication and assembly machinery, some of the movements are 'improved' - my cynicism suggests that any alteration to the clone movement would be purely to make manufacturing easier or cheaper, or to make the finished movement more reliable.
If you're interested in how different the Chinese clone movements are to the real thing, then this writeup on TZ-UK may be of interest. A watch enthusiast was given two Sea-Gull movements, the ST21 (clone of ETA 2824-2) and ST18 (clone of ETA 2892-2), and he disassembles them with a genuine ETA 2824-2 alongside for reference. Confusingly, he refers to the ST21 as an ST24, and the ST18 as an ST26 (which is apparently widely done, presumably due to dodgy documentation from an early large OEM supplier). It's worth checking out - there are differences, quality control is clearly inferior with the Chinese version, but actual timekeeping performance is very good. Weirdly, the author is a philosophy lecturer at Oxford (my degree and uni) and funnily, given the topic we're discussing, he specialises in moral philosophy
Edit - here's another comparison of Chinese clone vs ETA, including Sea-Gull, Hangzhou and ETA - on the Watchuseek forum
Some consider the crackdown by Swatch on easy ETA ébauche availability to OEMs, including well known and respected watchmakers, abuse of a privileged position and could strangulate the market in favour of Swatch. Anti-competitive, in other words. I don't know the Swiss govt's view on this, but the clones are being imported into Switzerland and re-finished to be sold as 'swiss movements' so I doubt a shortage of 'ETA' movements will happen soon. The only thing is that they'll be clones.
And what I took away from all of my experiences with replica watches was simply that you can get a near-identical clone of a steel ETA-based watch from the counterfeiters. They won't be shoddy 'fakes' and 'easy to tell' - they'll be mechanically identical, to all intents and purposes. However in every case, the Chinese product has inferior quality control. From simple stuff like not lubricating a few of the parts, to dirt / grit on the plates / bridges, to hairs embedded in the glue used to fix the pallet jewels
- there's an overall lack of attention to detail and dedication to quality. Hence there's a real chance your 'replica' will be DOA when you receive it, or will stop working 3 months later. However, assuming it's not actually *broken* on receipt, a dismantle, thorough clean and reassembly with correct lubrication will result in (regarding these ETA-clone powered watches) a watch which will perform as well as a genuine Swiss ETA powered watch.ETA: another link to a clone vs ETA picture comparison thread
Edited by cyberface on Sunday 8th August 01:20
Reading Cyberface's posts is like listening to my line manager explain something. I start off interested get bored halfway though but by the end I wake back up and have an ''aaahh so thats what he's talking about'' moment.
Jokes aside they are very informative. Suddenly given me an idea. I may look at getting a replica and replacing a few things like the dial and straps and hands to make a bespoke watch for myself.
Jokes aside they are very informative. Suddenly given me an idea. I may look at getting a replica and replacing a few things like the dial and straps and hands to make a bespoke watch for myself.
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