My latest project: Triumph XR4x4i
Discussion
Well, thought I'd start a resto-mod thread as I thought it would be a good way to track my progress.
But first, a littl back ground on my car. It's a 1500TC and had it for just over two years, I bought it from someone in rugby for the small sum of £380. It had a blown head gasket and a horrible mat black and grey paint job, which was half primer grey and the other half paint brushes matte black. It was kind of a restoration project just getting it road worthy and looking ok. Me and my dad spent a few months getting the engine apart to replace all the bearings and seals which wasn't too hard compared to the next 4 months doing all the body work and interior.
The body work sanding was done by hand, by me, so it took about two months of work to sand off the black paint and to etch the primer that was exposed. My dad had some gear that he used to spray his cars when he restored his cars so he put both the primer coat and the colour layer. the colour I wanted the car was signal red as I thought it was a deep red and looked quite nice but the colour I ended up with was a very bright red, with a black roof as I didn't want to fit a vynle roof cover. It was a nice little motor, ran smooth when off choke and was roomy, but since owning it it's been through 3 head gaskets, 3!!
So after a year, I got into a small accident and crushed the nose so I took it off the road and wanted to do more than just fix the body work and I heard that an MX5 engine near enough drops straight in. After asking around on the triumph forums, I found that it didn't drop in and would be a considerable amount of work. Another idea was to make it AWD, and after asking on the Triumph forums again, I found out that triumph did a FWD and a AWD1300 and that Triumph never changed the subframe, therefore the holes for the front driveshafts are still there from the FWD. after debating using the AWD 1500 gearbox, I decided to not use the engine I had as it was totally unreliable. Then looked at some resto-mod threads on the site and seen that someone did a 2.9 V6 swap from a ford Scorpio cosworth. As they did that in the XR4x4, I thought that would make it a prime candidate for an AWD swap
So, here's the plan; get ahold of a Sierra XR4x4 2.8 or 2.9, take out the engine and all associated wiring, find a triumph FWD hub to take measurements from, get either a pair or a single custom made, get FwD spindles, made adaptor plate to attach spindles to ford front half shafts, get tail shaft custom made to connect triumph rear end to ford gearbox, uproar front brakes, convert rear brakes to disk, put LSD in the rear axle, figure out how to wire Ford ecu to dolomite dials, race seats, roll cage, wheel arch flares, 15x8 wheels and tyres, respray either light blue or red with a black roof
But first, a littl back ground on my car. It's a 1500TC and had it for just over two years, I bought it from someone in rugby for the small sum of £380. It had a blown head gasket and a horrible mat black and grey paint job, which was half primer grey and the other half paint brushes matte black. It was kind of a restoration project just getting it road worthy and looking ok. Me and my dad spent a few months getting the engine apart to replace all the bearings and seals which wasn't too hard compared to the next 4 months doing all the body work and interior.
The body work sanding was done by hand, by me, so it took about two months of work to sand off the black paint and to etch the primer that was exposed. My dad had some gear that he used to spray his cars when he restored his cars so he put both the primer coat and the colour layer. the colour I wanted the car was signal red as I thought it was a deep red and looked quite nice but the colour I ended up with was a very bright red, with a black roof as I didn't want to fit a vynle roof cover. It was a nice little motor, ran smooth when off choke and was roomy, but since owning it it's been through 3 head gaskets, 3!!
So after a year, I got into a small accident and crushed the nose so I took it off the road and wanted to do more than just fix the body work and I heard that an MX5 engine near enough drops straight in. After asking around on the triumph forums, I found that it didn't drop in and would be a considerable amount of work. Another idea was to make it AWD, and after asking on the Triumph forums again, I found out that triumph did a FWD and a AWD1300 and that Triumph never changed the subframe, therefore the holes for the front driveshafts are still there from the FWD. after debating using the AWD 1500 gearbox, I decided to not use the engine I had as it was totally unreliable. Then looked at some resto-mod threads on the site and seen that someone did a 2.9 V6 swap from a ford Scorpio cosworth. As they did that in the XR4x4, I thought that would make it a prime candidate for an AWD swap
So, here's the plan; get ahold of a Sierra XR4x4 2.8 or 2.9, take out the engine and all associated wiring, find a triumph FWD hub to take measurements from, get either a pair or a single custom made, get FwD spindles, made adaptor plate to attach spindles to ford front half shafts, get tail shaft custom made to connect triumph rear end to ford gearbox, uproar front brakes, convert rear brakes to disk, put LSD in the rear axle, figure out how to wire Ford ecu to dolomite dials, race seats, roll cage, wheel arch flares, 15x8 wheels and tyres, respray either light blue or red with a black roof
Kitchski said:
Like the idea of it and the running gear from the Sierra is all good, but I'd use a different engine as the Cologne's really not up to much (speaking as a Cologne owner). Wouldn't be hard to put something different in there.
Only thing I'd point out is that (as you probably know) if you modify the shell, the car would need an IVA and end up on a Q-plate, so ideally you want all bolt-on gear, or fabricate running gear that bolts to the original mounting points.
I've looked into it and hopefully, as I'll be using reconditioned/"replacement" parts for the front hubs, it shouldn't officially change the suspension. I will be trying my best not to cut into the shell but I'm not sure about the gearbox length as all the pictures I can find, it looks rather long. I might have to modify the front subframe to make the 'box sit lower and add a dog leg system on it. I'm planing in keeping the steering and the suspension so that gives me the 3 other points I need to keep the reg plate Only thing I'd point out is that (as you probably know) if you modify the shell, the car would need an IVA and end up on a Q-plate, so ideally you want all bolt-on gear, or fabricate running gear that bolts to the original mounting points.
Almost all the parts will be bolt on, except for the engine mounts which I'll most likely create a rail for them so the position of the engine can be changed forward and backwards slightly if I change the engine
I'm more picking the cologne engine as, although all reports on the 2.8 were it was under powered, the 2.9 has been built up to make serious power. Granted it was the BOB cosworth engine which is becoming rare, the same techniques could be applied to the 12v and make it a formidable engine
Kitchski said:
Basically, any mods to the shell (other than non-structural flat panels) could land you in the s
te, so if you modify the removable bits you're technically (I think, best to double check) ok. You could of course modify it all and just risk it as many have done for years, but VOSA are starting to catch up on the backlog, so to speak.
On the engines, the 2.9 is worth 20bhp minimum (real world) over the 2.8, and does respond better to tuning, but it's still not great. It's also massively heavy, and there's a huge gulf between those and the 24v lumps.
Rover KV6 is where I'd go. Very compact, very light, very very cheap and can be bolted to a Type 9 (with a custom bell housing available off the shelf), which is what the earlier Sierra 4x4 setups used (happy to be corrected by Sierra buffs). 170bhp in the lowest guises, 190bhp in the better ones. In essence, worth another 10bhp (comparing a bad KV6 to a good 2.9 Cologne) and probably saves around 50-70kg in weight too, due to not being made of pig-iron. Only thing to muck about with is the secondary flaps, but they're easily removed, or if you're really lucky find a Rover 800 inlet as they're alloy, and don't have the stupid flaps. Don't buy the actual Rover 800 engine though, as they suffered OMGHGF. Anything MG ZS or MG ZT based is ideal. Just my opinion anyway, speaking as someone who owns a Cologne-propelled car and has owned a KV6 propelled car!
I've gave it a look and seems like a good engine. Was just saying using the 2.9 as according to a few ford forums, they share the block and are easily swappable. And the 2.9 24v can be tuned to north of 300hp. I'll have a look for bell housing kits. te, so if you modify the removable bits you're technically (I think, best to double check) ok. You could of course modify it all and just risk it as many have done for years, but VOSA are starting to catch up on the backlog, so to speak.On the engines, the 2.9 is worth 20bhp minimum (real world) over the 2.8, and does respond better to tuning, but it's still not great. It's also massively heavy, and there's a huge gulf between those and the 24v lumps.
Rover KV6 is where I'd go. Very compact, very light, very very cheap and can be bolted to a Type 9 (with a custom bell housing available off the shelf), which is what the earlier Sierra 4x4 setups used (happy to be corrected by Sierra buffs). 170bhp in the lowest guises, 190bhp in the better ones. In essence, worth another 10bhp (comparing a bad KV6 to a good 2.9 Cologne) and probably saves around 50-70kg in weight too, due to not being made of pig-iron. Only thing to muck about with is the secondary flaps, but they're easily removed, or if you're really lucky find a Rover 800 inlet as they're alloy, and don't have the stupid flaps. Don't buy the actual Rover 800 engine though, as they suffered OMGHGF. Anything MG ZS or MG ZT based is ideal. Just my opinion anyway, speaking as someone who owns a Cologne-propelled car and has owned a KV6 propelled car!
And I'd be going 4WD as I figured that the triumph suspension is only rated to about 250 ( as that's what race sprints had) and if I want more power, I'd have to replace suspension, and then apply for a Q-plate. Plus 4wd is just plain cooler
Max_Torque said:
No idea why you are bothering with 4wd! Sounds like a good way to ruin the car to me....
(with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Reading on the Triumph forum, there's a guy who swapped in a rover V8 that was running 250nm or torque and he bent the trailing arm. (with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Plus AWD makes for great acceleration and that's what I'm ultimately going for
steveo3002 said:
dropping the 4x4 idea would open so many other engines , maybe lighter or more powerfull ones from a modern car that wont be needing a rebuild before you get going
I've looked into some engines before doing this, such as an 1.8 mx5 engine with a supercharger. Would make about 200hp, and an upper limit of 225 hp due to gearbox. Also thought about an RB series, like an RB20, engine but they are too long, engine is 73" long and engine bay is 75" and is too tall and would have to be mounted at a slant. I also considered a BMW M3 v8 as it just sounds gorgeous.Oh, I didn't know that they weren't that strong.
ManOpener said:
Could drop a BMW or Audi V8 of just about any kind in there. Even avoid the S/RS/M stuff you'd still see over 300bhp from an Audi 4.2 V8, they're fairly small in size, and surprisingly cheap.
If I can remember the bay dimensions, they might fit. It's 75" long x 30" wide x 22" deep (I think from the cross member). An RB might fit if I got a lower profile sump. If I were to go above 300hp, I'd probably strengthen the suspension just I case it bent. 300bhp/ton said:
This all sounds cool, but it also sounds like a complete vapour build.
Of course there are wacky people out there that do build amazing cars. But this project sounds like a heck of a lot of work and bespoke customisation.
The reality is, this means:
-Lots and lots of £££££
-Lots of hours
-The need to have the skills, tools, equipment and time to complete such a project.
I wish you all the luck, but I'm also willing to wager that it's also highly unlikely to ever happen.
I also think you'll struggle to have such a radically modified car and not need an IVA.
And as for performance, the cost of getting 300bhp+ n/a from the old Ford V6 must be astronomical. And if you really want to build it purely for acceleration, then the entire build concept seems highly flawed IMO.
Yes, tuning an n/a cologne V6 would be expensive, but who said I would do it n/a, was thinking using a tt kit, as for custom parts, all I can think of is hubs, spindles, headers, tail shaft, engine mount, and wiring loom. Just the usual things that are custom for an engine swap Of course there are wacky people out there that do build amazing cars. But this project sounds like a heck of a lot of work and bespoke customisation.
The reality is, this means:
-Lots and lots of £££££
-Lots of hours
-The need to have the skills, tools, equipment and time to complete such a project.
I wish you all the luck, but I'm also willing to wager that it's also highly unlikely to ever happen.
I also think you'll struggle to have such a radically modified car and not need an IVA.
And as for performance, the cost of getting 300bhp+ n/a from the old Ford V6 must be astronomical. And if you really want to build it purely for acceleration, then the entire build concept seems highly flawed IMO.
Max_Torque said:
MaxRothery said:
Max_Torque said:
No idea why you are bothering with 4wd! Sounds like a good way to ruin the car to me....
(with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Reading on the Triumph forum, there's a guy who swapped in a rover V8 that was running 250nm or torque and he bent the trailing arm. (with modern tyres, decent axle location and good damping, it'll put down 250bhp easily, and it's not like you've got a lot of torque to deal with either (by modern stds)
I'd go with a mildly fettled KV6 driving the back axle only for a nice solid 200 bhp / 250Nm
Plus AWD makes for great acceleration and that's what I'm ultimately going for
With "only" around 250bhp, and Rwd, there is no need for 4wd on modern tyres.
Next question then is, what engine do I go for? I want something light, reasonably powerful, and with a massive mod support, giving the opportunity to increase the power to what ever I want.
RB20/25/26 it too tall and long but has great mod support
Rover V8 is cheap and small but doesn't have the greatest mod support
Mazda MX5 1.6/1.8 is small light and has good mod support, but it's kinda limited to the gearbox limit of 225bh
BMW V8 is small but too powerful, as is an Audi V8
Honda f20c is great but to add any power to it can be expensive
Any more suggestions?
300bhp/ton said:
Do you have a budget???
Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
My engine budget is like £2-3k. Didn't know that lots of company's do mod support for the RV8, I'll look into it. I love both a lumpy, grumpy RV8 but also the scream of the BMW V8 and of the V6s, and they'd be great. Also no idea what are you talking about when you say there is no mod support for the Rover V8????? Seriously. There are companies that do nothing but mod these.
The RV8 is a good engine for 200-240hp. But gets pricey if you want more. Many 2.0 4 pots can match the power these days, although they will lack the torque and the soundtrack.
I would also suggest that an Audi or BMW DOHC V8 is what I'd call a physically large engine.
The KV6 is a cracking ending for 190-200hp and used in the kit car market. So a proven engine for this type of thing. But higher hp than this will come at a price.
1.8 K Series might be worth considering. Very light and very compact. Good for a fairly easy 170-180hp na. They also Coke in turbo form and with some beefed up internals can make strong power. Again an engine heavily used in the kit car industry. And by Lotus and Caterham. So lots of off the shelf options and a large wealth of knowledge.
Jaguar AJV8's are cheap to buy and are pretty compact for a DOHC engine. But you'll likely have to do your own r&d to make one work with a manual. Which will significantly up the challenge.
All in all it really depends what you want to achieve, your budget and how much customisation and r&d you want to put in. There are loads of other engine options, an endless list really.
Modern 2.0 turbos just don't seam to do it for me, too soft and drone-y and not massively entertaining.
Max_Torque: I'm not too bothered about a triumph connection, if it has one, great, but it's not a feature the engine needs. ST220 engine was on my mind at one point but I wasn't sure about mounting it longitudinal as I didn't think it would mate up to the ford type 9 'box that most ford modders use to make it a RWD car. Is that engine any similar to the jag 3.0 V6?
300hp/tonne: I had considered a sprint engine as there are some cool features and carbed up it would be a great noise but apart from a few simple things like a cam and carn swap, I don't think there's much support behind them. I found one company that makes rally and race engines and they are £7k and £13k respectively.
Davepoth: I didn't know that they sold the engine to Saab so in theory, I could take a spring engine, a Saab engine, put the Saab rods and Pistons into the sprint engine, have a crank made, and turbo it. Wouldon't look out of place. Or could take swap the Saab engine straight in and put all the triumph bells and whistles on it
300hp/tonne: I had considered a sprint engine as there are some cool features and carbed up it would be a great noise but apart from a few simple things like a cam and carn swap, I don't think there's much support behind them. I found one company that makes rally and race engines and they are £7k and £13k respectively.
Davepoth: I didn't know that they sold the engine to Saab so in theory, I could take a spring engine, a Saab engine, put the Saab rods and Pistons into the sprint engine, have a crank made, and turbo it. Wouldon't look out of place. Or could take swap the Saab engine straight in and put all the triumph bells and whistles on it
ManOpener said:
MaxRothery said:
ManOpener said:
Could drop a BMW or Audi V8 of just about any kind in there. Even avoid the S/RS/M stuff you'd still see over 300bhp from an Audi 4.2 V8, they're fairly small in size, and surprisingly cheap.
If I can remember the bay dimensions, they might fit. It's 75" long x 30" wide x 22" deep (I think from the cross member). An RB might fit if I got a lower profile sump. If I were to go above 300hp, I'd probably strengthen the suspension just I case it bent. Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
So 19.1 x 30 x 26 inches. Or 1200m (47 inches) length including the gearbox, not that you'd want to use the OE Audi box given it's designed for FWD output (hence these finding themselves in the backs of GT40s and old Lotus), though I suppose you could use a Torsen Quattro box with the front output shafts blanked.
People have got them in the back of Mk1 MR2s so they really will go into tiny spaces.
AFAIK they're actually significantly smaller than the RV8 suggested by 300 (Length : 708 mm Height : 707 mm Width: 770 mm is the figures I've got); light too. For DOHC V8s they're very, very small:
The older 3.7L V8 is only 230bhp if you're worried about power too. Same basic block dimensions. 4.2s are either 286, 300, 310, 340 or 360bhp depending on what they come from.
Edited by ManOpener on Wednesday 7th October 13:38
If they did the Audi V8 in RWD, it ok would be good, I looked into them and engine mods were a bit expensive.
Would a jaguar V6 work? I think they come in manual and auto flavours and my dads mates got one and he says his is rapid
steveo3002 said:
MaxRothery said:
BMW V8 is small but too powerful, as is an Audi V8
is there such thing as too powerfull?youre look at other engines you can mod and mess with for more power , but theyre too powerfull out of the box?
An Ls1 would be a good one, it's a good mod-able engine.
With the 4-motion, wouldn't fit width ways as I would have a guess that the engine is longer that the bay is wide
Has anyone heard of someone swapping a Japanese straight six into a dolly? I thing there's one on the Triumph forums but I don't know what he had to do to get it to fit. I I tilted the engine to about 25-30 degrees. It would fit under the bonnet at he front better but it would still poke out and I don't think the DVLA take too kindly to engines poking out of bonnets
ManOpener said:
rallycross said:
What about using a VW 4motion 2.8 V6 engine and running gear? These are getting cheap now I know of a 2001 Bora 2.8 4motion for sale with 6 months mot, full history for £700 that would be a good donor car, 205 bhp, modern parts etc that is a transverse engine not sure if you have space for that?
Problem is they're transverse, so gearboxes are a problem. Don't think they ever did a VR6 in a longitudinal placement.Going back to earlier comments, the Jag 3.0 V6 is a Ford engine isn't it?
I remember an add that triumph made about rallying, saying if they wanted to win over all, they would use a jag V12, I know it's a monstrous engine but would it fit?
Edited by MaxRothery on Wednesday 7th October 16:04
300bhp/ton said:
ManOpener said:
Going back to earlier comments, the Jag 3.0 V6 is a Ford engine isn't it?
It's based on it yes. Although the Jag version has a number of differences not found on the Mondeo.The setup used in the S-Type with the manual would probably be quite a nice option. I think someone put one in an MX-5 recently.
Max_Torque said:
IMO, chasing more than about 250bhp will ruin this project....
(you want decent performance, without having to completely re-engineer the entire vehicle to cope! Assuming you can get something like a 205 section tyre under the arches, then 250 N/A bhp (say 300Nm tops) and a nice manual 6spd trans would make this a brilliant little car. Enough power for a 0-60 probably in the high 5's / low 6's (which is plenty) and totally driveable too.
Spend more money on the engine management, the mapping, the exhaust and the cooling to make it reliable and driveable, rather than chasing pointless ponies it can't use!
If you have a measure up of the engine bay, you'll quickly see if you can get more than 4 cyls in a line. I suspect any modern inline 6 will be too long and tall (although a 5 might squeeze in (volvo 2.5 5 pot (in non turbo format)).
A v6 is short, meaning you can position it better to miss things like the firewall and the subframe / steering rack etc. A nice stainless exhaust, done properly, is going to set you back £2k, but will make the car a joy to drive.
Wheels I'm looking at are 15x8, with Tokyo R888 at either 205-225, I've measured up he engine bay and most I4's will fit, I think most I6's they'll be too long. A few people have put V6s' in Dolomites, one put a BOB cosworth 2.9 V6 and I thing someone put a Middlesbrough V6 from a scimitar in one. And I think they said that they shifted really quick.(you want decent performance, without having to completely re-engineer the entire vehicle to cope! Assuming you can get something like a 205 section tyre under the arches, then 250 N/A bhp (say 300Nm tops) and a nice manual 6spd trans would make this a brilliant little car. Enough power for a 0-60 probably in the high 5's / low 6's (which is plenty) and totally driveable too.
Spend more money on the engine management, the mapping, the exhaust and the cooling to make it reliable and driveable, rather than chasing pointless ponies it can't use!
If you have a measure up of the engine bay, you'll quickly see if you can get more than 4 cyls in a line. I suspect any modern inline 6 will be too long and tall (although a 5 might squeeze in (volvo 2.5 5 pot (in non turbo format)).
A v6 is short, meaning you can position it better to miss things like the firewall and the subframe / steering rack etc. A nice stainless exhaust, done properly, is going to set you back £2k, but will make the car a joy to drive.
A Jag V6 might fit and would be a nice smooth engine. A 13b would be a nice punchy car and would be a great noise but they don't have much torque so could go for more power
davepoth said:
In the engine bay of a Dolomite I've seen
Vauxhall redtop
Cosworth YB (google that one, it's epic)
Zetec 2.0
Essex V6
Stag V8
Rover v8
C18DET
And they all fitted without too much trouble - the V8s are a struggle with the heater still installed though, as they end up tight to the bulkhead.
I'd probably keep the heater just for functionality. A V6 wouldn't poke to far out into the front of the engine bay. There would be plenty of room for radiators and coolers of various kindsVauxhall redtop
Cosworth YB (google that one, it's epic)
Zetec 2.0
Essex V6
Stag V8
Rover v8
C18DET
And they all fitted without too much trouble - the V8s are a struggle with the heater still installed though, as they end up tight to the bulkhead.
300bhp/ton said:
MaxRothery said:
I'd probably keep the heater just for functionality. A V6 wouldn't poke to far out into the front of the engine bay. There would be plenty of room for radiators and coolers of various kinds
Depends on the V6, some are pretty big.
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