Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
skyrover said:
The Ukrainian population is interested in economic growth and a better life. They look over the border and see how fellow Slavs Poland have done very well within Europe.
Try telling them they can't have it... it's not going to work.
They've done very well because they are getting our money in the form of bribes to move NATO eastwards to do it.Try telling Greece,Spain,Portugal or Italy what a success transferring wealth from western Europe to eastern Europe has been.While even the so called richest west European economies aren't exactly in the best of health.In large part because of all the money that's been thrown at eastern Europe to get it onside against Russia for who knows what reason. Try telling them they can't have it... it's not going to work.
XJ Flyer said:
They've done very well because they are getting our money in the form of bribes to move NATO eastwards to do it.Try telling Greece,Spain,Portugal or Italy what a success transferring wealth from western Europe to eastern Europe has been.While even the so called richest west European economies aren't exactly in the best of health.In large part because of all the money that's been thrown at eastern Europe to get it onside against Russia for who knows what reason.
I wasn't aware that NATO and the EU were the same thing.For the record, I'm very much in favour of one, but not the other.
At the end of the day.... just follow the money. The EU stands to get wealthier and more influential, the larger it gets.
It's a big, lumbering, ugly charade that operates beyond it's mandate... but Russia it aint.
skyrover said:
XJ Flyer said:
They've done very well because they are getting our money in the form of bribes to move NATO eastwards to do it.Try telling Greece,Spain,Portugal or Italy what a success transferring wealth from western Europe to eastern Europe has been.While even the so called richest west European economies aren't exactly in the best of health.In large part because of all the money that's been thrown at eastern Europe to get it onside against Russia for who knows what reason.
I wasn't aware that NATO and the EU were the same thing.For the record, I'm very much in favour of one, but not the other.
At the end of the day.... just follow the money. The EU stands to get wealthier and more influential, the larger it gets.
It's a big, lumbering, ugly charade that operates beyond it's mandate... but Russia it aint.
As for NATO and the EU exactly how many and which of the east European EU members aren't also members of NATO since joining the EU.
It is actually just a case of one big federation trying to get into a turf war with another one.The logical conclusion of which in the medium term being either war with Russia sooner or later.Or if not war amongst itself when any of the member states decide to secede in the long term future.In which case what are being described as Ukrainian 'rebels' now could be British 'rebels' later.
The difference being, I can't see the EU going to war over a British exit from the union.
Personally I don't see the EU as a good deal for the UK... I don't like how uncountable it is, nor the huge cost to run it... but certain countries like Ukraine have a lot to gain from joining it as long as the richer countries are happy to subsidize them.
Poland today has a good infrastructure network and it's people many times wealthier... it's not hard to imagine it becoming a net contributor eventually (If the EU survives that long in it's present form)
Personally I don't see the EU as a good deal for the UK... I don't like how uncountable it is, nor the huge cost to run it... but certain countries like Ukraine have a lot to gain from joining it as long as the richer countries are happy to subsidize them.
Poland today has a good infrastructure network and it's people many times wealthier... it's not hard to imagine it becoming a net contributor eventually (If the EU survives that long in it's present form)
Edited by skyrover on Saturday 16th August 20:58
skyrover said:
The difference being, I can't see the EU going to war over a British exit from the union.
Personally I don't see the EU as a good deal for the UK... I don't like how uncountable it is, nor the huge cost to run it... but certain countries like Ukraine have a lot to gain from joining it as long as the richer countries are happy to subsidize them.
Poland today has a good infrastructure network and it's people many times wealthier... it's not hard to imagine it becoming a net contributor eventually (If the EU survives that long in it's present form)
The idea that there would ever be a costly war of secession wasn't foreseen by the federalists amongst the US government 'until' it happened.Or for that matter many of those who supported Tito's Yugoslav federation.All the precedents suggest that federations sooner or later use force against their member states.With different opposite outcomes in the case of the US compared to Yugoslavia.Personally I don't see the EU as a good deal for the UK... I don't like how uncountable it is, nor the huge cost to run it... but certain countries like Ukraine have a lot to gain from joining it as long as the richer countries are happy to subsidize them.
Poland today has a good infrastructure network and it's people many times wealthier... it's not hard to imagine it becoming a net contributor eventually (If the EU survives that long in it's present form)
Edited by skyrover on Saturday 16th August 20:58
As for Poland the only way it and all the other east European states can get richer is at the expense of the west European ones.Either in terms of transfer of wealth to build them up now.Or assuming they become an industrial economic powerhouse in the longer term.In which case at best that's just yet more competition for us.
Mojocvh said:
"NATO doesn't start seeing sense by backing off from Russia's borders "
Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
The Baltic states and Poland have direct borders with Russia.In addition to a border with Belarus assuming that Belarus is seen as part of the Russian Confederation and sphere of influence.Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
Which leaves the question of Ukraine assuming that Putin loses Eastern Ukraine to the nationalist pro EU forces.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 16th August 22:01
T-72 spotted in separatist territory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5tSDLjfAI
Ukraine's army has no T-72's since their ground forces have always used the T-64/T-80/T-84 series of tanks.
This tank can only have come from Russia (or Poland
)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5tSDLjfAI
Ukraine's army has no T-72's since their ground forces have always used the T-64/T-80/T-84 series of tanks.
This tank can only have come from Russia (or Poland
)I think it's fairly obvious that Russia is supplying equipment, training and probably personnel to the Rebels, and has been for quite some time.
What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
I'm sure our resident kremlin apologists would scream blue murder if that were to happen though.
What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
I'm sure our resident kremlin apologists would scream blue murder if that were to happen though.
vonuber said:
I think it's fairly obvious that Russia is supplying equipment, training and probably personnel to the Rebels, and has been for quite some time.
What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
Assisting no doubt. And the West are always assisting rebels, are they not?What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
vonuber said:
I think it's fairly obvious that Russia is supplying equipment, training and probably personnel to the Rebels, and has been for quite some time.
What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
I'm sure our resident kremlin apologists would scream blue murder if that were to happen though.
The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want. What I wonder about though is whether nato is contemplating unofficially doing the same to the government.
I'm sure our resident kremlin apologists would scream blue murder if that were to happen though.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45
XJ Flyer said:
The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.
So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45
vonuber said:
XJ Flyer said:
The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.
So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45
vonuber said:
XJ Flyer said:
The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.
So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45
As I said if you really want to start WW3 over nothing in the form of trying to push NATO into Eastern Ukraine at least,then go ahead make Russia's military leadership's day.At which point it will be too late to realise that Putin is/was actually the far lesser of all the possible potential evils on all sides.
greygoose said:
vonuber said:
XJ Flyer said:
The reason being that such a move would remove all doubt amongst the Russian military leadership that NATO is all about conventional hostilities against Russia by way of eastward expansion.Putin then gets 'sidelined' ( sacked ) as a loser,the Russian military then takes over Russian foreign policy and then takes relevant 'action' as it sees fit to push back NATO.Which is a great idea assuming anyone wants to start WW3 for no reason whatsoever.IE the idea of Leopard,Challenger,or Abrahms tanks for example,amongst other western hardware,fighting against Russian forces in Ukraine should do it if that's what you really want.
So it is ok for Russia to do it but not say Poland? Or other bordering countries? Even if the Ukrainian Government asks for help? Why are you so keen to allow Russia a free pass for of its actions (i.e. deliberately invading and attempting to annex parts of a foreign country)?Edited by XJ Flyer on Sunday 17th August 14:45
XJ Flyer said:
You seem to be missing the fact that Russia actually moved out of those countries like Poland not in.The deal breaker obviously then being that NATO decided to move in instead of just leaving them as neutral buffer states which is probably how Gorbachev etc saw the deal.By that example there's no way that Russia will now allow that to happen in Ukraine or at least Eastern Ukraine.
As I said if you really want to start WW3 over nothing in the form of trying to push NATO into Eastern Ukraine at least,then go ahead make Russia's military leadership's day.At which point it will be too late to realise that Putin is/was actually the far lesser of all the possible potential evils on all sides.
Aside from the simply HUGE number of posts you put into anything thread involving Russia ( which is, in itself, weird. I mean, have you not anything better to do? ) .. .. the other stand-out feature is the bizarre perspective you have of things. If is as if you were off sick when history classes were teaching 20th century history...As I said if you really want to start WW3 over nothing in the form of trying to push NATO into Eastern Ukraine at least,then go ahead make Russia's military leadership's day.At which point it will be too late to realise that Putin is/was actually the far lesser of all the possible potential evils on all sides.
Anyway, I digress.
Let us be clear here - Russia did not "move out" of Poland and the Eastern Bloc. The USSR collapsed. It fell to pieces. They could not even afford to pay the soldiers, wages, could not afford to put fuel in their tanks and food in the stomachs of their troops. The USSR ended with ignominy, embarrassment and abject failure.
The Soviet Union was essentially a drunken tramp that finally fell asleep in a ditch from too much vodka and lost consciousness in a pool of its own piss.
When Russia ( as the father of the Union) finally woke up, it found that all of the neighbours it had bullied for two generations had taken the opportunity to turn their backs to them and seek a better life.
It really does not matter if Poland, Hungary, Czech and the other old Soviet Union members were a part of the EU, NATO or even NARNIA. The most important thing ( and the thing you keep ignoring ) is that the considerable, large populations of these countries DO NOT want to be a part of Russian influence anymore. If Putin ever threatened the Polish, for example, they would hit back hard. And they would do so if they were in NATO or not. They would still do anything to avoid being under the yoke of the Russians.
It is as simple as that.
Besides, and back on thread - PLEASE LETS GET BACK OT and talk about MH17 - it must be noted that Putin has made a right mess of this Ukraine shambles. The medium term outlook for Russia is now buggered because of sanctions. They have been massively outplayed by the Chinese and made to bend over and take the pain over their energy deal. The only thing Putin has achieved is a short term hike in his popular appeal. But in the corridors of power, he is making a lot of internal enemies.
XJ Flyer said:
Mojocvh said:
"NATO doesn't start seeing sense by backing off from Russia's borders "
Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
The Baltic states and Poland have direct borders with Russia.In addition to a border with Belarus assuming that Belarus is seen as part of the Russian Confederation and sphere of influence.Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
Which leaves the question of Ukraine assuming that Putin loses Eastern Ukraine to the nationalist pro EU forces.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 16th August 22:01
Bonkers.
XJ Flyer said:
The idea that Eastern Ukraine at least isn't effectively part of Russia certainly not the EU takes some naive belief in EU and NATO propaganda.
Whatever. The Russians have an understandable claim on Crimea, but nothing else in Ukraine. Russian speakers are in the minority everywhere else.
Mojocvh said:
XJ Flyer said:
Mojocvh said:
"NATO doesn't start seeing sense by backing off from Russia's borders "
Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
The Baltic states and Poland have direct borders with Russia.In addition to a border with Belarus assuming that Belarus is seen as part of the Russian Confederation and sphere of influence.Really. Remind us how NATO is "on russian borders" then.
Which leaves the question of Ukraine assuming that Putin loses Eastern Ukraine to the nationalist pro EU forces.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 16th August 22:01
Bonkers.
So effectively at that point we've kicked off the WW3 that we successfully avoided during the Cold War,by trying to move NATO up to Russia's turf in Ukraine.Great idea that's obviously been taken from the George Bush school of military strategy.
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