V8 Vantage - what's it really like?
Discussion
huntsen said:
There's also a 'Rear Lamp Assembly Condensation Removal and Repair Procedure' Service Bulletin, no SB0286V2 which covers the whole repair procedure - where to drill a hole, dry it out and repair the hole and the original leak.
I can let you have the 5 page pdf if you PM me.
Thanks, but I found it when I did mine and that is pretty much the procedure I followed. I'm sure the light was dried out, but I don't understand how it still gets condensation. I can let you have the 5 page pdf if you PM me.
Shnozz said:
I wasn't aware of the hidden 3rd one behind the tyreweld box - will check that one too but the play in the light appears to be coming from the left hand side of it so was expecting it to be the nut nearest the centre of the boot that would be loose. Will have another look over the weekend.
I assume you've sorted this by now but just in case you haven't : I noticed at the weekend that the RH light rear light (which is the one I removed) was not level with the boot - the light was too tight against the bodywork. So I removed it again.
What I didn't realise when I had it out before is that although the securing nuts screw onto a thread - that thread is actually screwed onto another thread (on the rear of the light body) and hence can be turned itself to adjust the position of the light correctly against the bodywork when the nuts are tightened.
So - if the nut is tight on the thread, but the light is still loose - I suspect that the thread that the nut is tight on isn't actually screwed on to the thread on the light body.
Time for an update.
Well, it's official - the Aston is now getting used very little - end of March to End of April, I did about 75 miles. This month it's been more like normal, but only really due to a couple of abnormal trips which definitely won't usually happen. I genuinely am in the situation now where I spend more time washing it than driving it.
Obviously with such low mileage, I've not really had any issues. However - I am beginning to think that it may be time to replace the brake pads - hard braking from speed is still very good - but gentle braking around town just feels like it needs a bit more of a push on the brake pedal than I'd like. So I will almost certainly replace the pads by the Autumn.
As I mentioned before, the reason for the limited use is the purchase of the Alfa Spider, which has become my daily car. And surprisingly, this has caused me to start wondering whether I should sell the Aston.....
They are not serious thoughts yet - but I can see that they may head that way. Now, obviously the Alfa is not an Aston Martin, and the two are so different they can hardly be compared. But - it's fun. Far more fun than I expected, even when it was absolutely tipping down yesterday. And when the sun is shining, driving around with the roof down is lovely - I've always thought convertibles were a tad pointless, but this car seems to be changing my mind.
On Saturday, I was driving along - roof down - and had the thought that I was really enjoying the car. And it's hard to ignore the fact that - compared to the Aston / Ferrari - it is worth pennies, and costs pennies to run. Even if something expensive goes wrong with it (the timing chain stretching is a known weak point, so they have to be replaced every ~50k miles or so) - it's still not expensive. For example - that timing chain replacement is about £1,500. So in other words - what I'd have to pay if one of my Vantage sidelights failed.....
I don't drive around in the Aston or the Ferrari scared of what might break - although I don't think you ever completely forget about the potential costs. But I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying the Alfa - and I'm beginning to think that for a fraction of the price of owning / running the Vantage, I still get 90% of the enjoyment - albeit perhaps slightly different enjoyment.
I love owning an Aston Martin. When people ask what cars I own, the Aston is the icing on the cake. And - as my posts on this thread should confirm - I have really enjoyed it since the day I bought it.
But - I was aware when I bought the Alfa that it was a frivolous purchase and I probably wouldn't own 4 cars long term - although I didn't really expect that it would be the Aston which might be the casualty. It's early days - I definitely do not want to sell it yet - but the thoughts have begun to creep in, and if I find there are other things I want to spend money on (I'm currently single, but if that changes I'm likely to want to divert more disposable income elsewhere) then I think the Aston is the most at risk from my cars.
Let's see how I feel next time I update.....
Well, it's official - the Aston is now getting used very little - end of March to End of April, I did about 75 miles. This month it's been more like normal, but only really due to a couple of abnormal trips which definitely won't usually happen. I genuinely am in the situation now where I spend more time washing it than driving it.
Obviously with such low mileage, I've not really had any issues. However - I am beginning to think that it may be time to replace the brake pads - hard braking from speed is still very good - but gentle braking around town just feels like it needs a bit more of a push on the brake pedal than I'd like. So I will almost certainly replace the pads by the Autumn.
As I mentioned before, the reason for the limited use is the purchase of the Alfa Spider, which has become my daily car. And surprisingly, this has caused me to start wondering whether I should sell the Aston.....
They are not serious thoughts yet - but I can see that they may head that way. Now, obviously the Alfa is not an Aston Martin, and the two are so different they can hardly be compared. But - it's fun. Far more fun than I expected, even when it was absolutely tipping down yesterday. And when the sun is shining, driving around with the roof down is lovely - I've always thought convertibles were a tad pointless, but this car seems to be changing my mind.
On Saturday, I was driving along - roof down - and had the thought that I was really enjoying the car. And it's hard to ignore the fact that - compared to the Aston / Ferrari - it is worth pennies, and costs pennies to run. Even if something expensive goes wrong with it (the timing chain stretching is a known weak point, so they have to be replaced every ~50k miles or so) - it's still not expensive. For example - that timing chain replacement is about £1,500. So in other words - what I'd have to pay if one of my Vantage sidelights failed.....
I don't drive around in the Aston or the Ferrari scared of what might break - although I don't think you ever completely forget about the potential costs. But I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying the Alfa - and I'm beginning to think that for a fraction of the price of owning / running the Vantage, I still get 90% of the enjoyment - albeit perhaps slightly different enjoyment.
I love owning an Aston Martin. When people ask what cars I own, the Aston is the icing on the cake. And - as my posts on this thread should confirm - I have really enjoyed it since the day I bought it.
But - I was aware when I bought the Alfa that it was a frivolous purchase and I probably wouldn't own 4 cars long term - although I didn't really expect that it would be the Aston which might be the casualty. It's early days - I definitely do not want to sell it yet - but the thoughts have begun to creep in, and if I find there are other things I want to spend money on (I'm currently single, but if that changes I'm likely to want to divert more disposable income elsewhere) then I think the Aston is the most at risk from my cars.
Let's see how I feel next time I update.....
kbooker said:
Now you have a convertible hopefully you won't be single much longer, a new boyfriend will be along soon 
I have a (girl) friend who's into cars, and I visited her a few weeks after buying it. We went out for dinner, and as we got to the pub she went to pull the visor down intending to check her makeup in the mirror. I said : It doesn't have a mirror on the visor.
Her answer was : It's probably on your side since you've bought a girls car......
But I still like it!
In the last month or so of ownership, I had my first "serious" problem in two years of ownership - although in the end, it wasn't that serious and cost me nothing to fix. I mentioned it in another thread when it happened, but will summarise here to keep this thread complete.
Driving to work, accelerating hard in the outside lane of a dual carriageway to overtake some cars and discovered that when I changed into 4th, I appeared to have a neutral instead. Tried a few more times with no success - found another gear and carried on.
A bit further on the way to work and it became clear that I hadn't just lost 4th - I'd lost 2nd, 4th and 6th. The car was still useable - and at least I still had reverse - but it became clear pretty quickly why Aston never made a 3 speed Vantage.
It seemed likely it was the gear linkage, so I initially started at the gear shift end. This quickly proved that everything was connected just fine there and hence the problem must be at the gearbox end. A small tip - if you remove your center console, don't be tempted to start the car for some random reason (there was a reason, but I can't remember what it was) - you will get LOTS of warning lights including airbags. Fortunately, when you re-assemble your car, you will find they all disappear (although I'm sure they're logged).
So, back to the gearbox end. With the car on ramps, I could feel the cable wasn't secure - and I could feel the bracket it was supposed to be clipped into. You can feel the thicker part of the cable adjuster, and it is the gearbox end of that adjuster that clips in place - I even heard it click as I fitted it back in the bracket.
Note though that it's all done blind - you can't see any of it, at least not if you're laying under the car on your driveway. I also lied when I said it got fixed for free - the car literally did take a pound of flesh from my forearm. But it was a relatively simple fix for what initially appeared to be a scary expensive problem.
Other than that, the car has been mostly perfect - however I can no longer ignore the fact that the brake pads are low. Braking is good if I need to stop quickly, but really uninspiring the rest of the time - I will get pads in the next few days.
The amount I've used the car has increased significantly this month. Mostly, that's a result of dating - having joined the dating sites, I used it to meet a few girls and that added a good few miles to the car. I have also started seeing somebody exclusively for the last few weeks, and although she doesn't live too far away (~10 miles), I've mostly used the Aston to go there and a few 20 mile round trips add up quickly enough.
The other reason the mileage increased slightly is because my Alfa Spider roof started failing, so the car was away getting that fixed and the Aston became my car of choice for the week or two that I didn't have the Alfa.
What's surprising, is how much I missed the Spider. Not just because of the weather (typically the roof broke while we had the hottest sunniest temperatures for years) but because the Spider is just a nicer car to drive around town. I think I mentioned it in a previous post, but it's smaller, nippy, more fuel efficient and just easier to drive on town roads (lighter clutch etc).
I still feel like I have too many cars - and I still feel that the Aston is the most likely to go. I need at least one practical car, so the Cayenne has to stay. The Ferrari is the perfect sports car, and the Alfa is just a nice, fun, cheap runaround (although when the roof needs fixing, "cheap" maybe isn't the right word). The Aston is lovely - but if I do decide to reduce my cars it will be one of the "expensive" ones that needs to go and that means the Aston or the Ferrari. And I don't think it will be the Ferrari.
Having said that - the lady I'm seeing is into nice / fast cars. And - much as she loves the Ferrari - she has said she thinks the Aston is her favourite - it's just soooooo classy inside. But then - the car she wants to drive is the 360.
So, we will see. New brake pads are needed in the next month and then I really need to give some serious thought about whether I should keep it much longer.
Driving to work, accelerating hard in the outside lane of a dual carriageway to overtake some cars and discovered that when I changed into 4th, I appeared to have a neutral instead. Tried a few more times with no success - found another gear and carried on.
A bit further on the way to work and it became clear that I hadn't just lost 4th - I'd lost 2nd, 4th and 6th. The car was still useable - and at least I still had reverse - but it became clear pretty quickly why Aston never made a 3 speed Vantage.
It seemed likely it was the gear linkage, so I initially started at the gear shift end. This quickly proved that everything was connected just fine there and hence the problem must be at the gearbox end. A small tip - if you remove your center console, don't be tempted to start the car for some random reason (there was a reason, but I can't remember what it was) - you will get LOTS of warning lights including airbags. Fortunately, when you re-assemble your car, you will find they all disappear (although I'm sure they're logged).
So, back to the gearbox end. With the car on ramps, I could feel the cable wasn't secure - and I could feel the bracket it was supposed to be clipped into. You can feel the thicker part of the cable adjuster, and it is the gearbox end of that adjuster that clips in place - I even heard it click as I fitted it back in the bracket.
Note though that it's all done blind - you can't see any of it, at least not if you're laying under the car on your driveway. I also lied when I said it got fixed for free - the car literally did take a pound of flesh from my forearm. But it was a relatively simple fix for what initially appeared to be a scary expensive problem.
Other than that, the car has been mostly perfect - however I can no longer ignore the fact that the brake pads are low. Braking is good if I need to stop quickly, but really uninspiring the rest of the time - I will get pads in the next few days.
The amount I've used the car has increased significantly this month. Mostly, that's a result of dating - having joined the dating sites, I used it to meet a few girls and that added a good few miles to the car. I have also started seeing somebody exclusively for the last few weeks, and although she doesn't live too far away (~10 miles), I've mostly used the Aston to go there and a few 20 mile round trips add up quickly enough.
The other reason the mileage increased slightly is because my Alfa Spider roof started failing, so the car was away getting that fixed and the Aston became my car of choice for the week or two that I didn't have the Alfa.
What's surprising, is how much I missed the Spider. Not just because of the weather (typically the roof broke while we had the hottest sunniest temperatures for years) but because the Spider is just a nicer car to drive around town. I think I mentioned it in a previous post, but it's smaller, nippy, more fuel efficient and just easier to drive on town roads (lighter clutch etc).
I still feel like I have too many cars - and I still feel that the Aston is the most likely to go. I need at least one practical car, so the Cayenne has to stay. The Ferrari is the perfect sports car, and the Alfa is just a nice, fun, cheap runaround (although when the roof needs fixing, "cheap" maybe isn't the right word). The Aston is lovely - but if I do decide to reduce my cars it will be one of the "expensive" ones that needs to go and that means the Aston or the Ferrari. And I don't think it will be the Ferrari.
Having said that - the lady I'm seeing is into nice / fast cars. And - much as she loves the Ferrari - she has said she thinks the Aston is her favourite - it's just soooooo classy inside. But then - the car she wants to drive is the 360.
So, we will see. New brake pads are needed in the next month and then I really need to give some serious thought about whether I should keep it much longer.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 27th June 13:20
So, a couple of weeks ago I decided : Enough is enough, I have too many cars and one of them needs to go.
However, contrary to my earlier posts - I wasn't willing to sell the Aston. I therefore visited a dealer to get a ballpark figure for the 360 (which with hindsight was too low) and put the Ferrari up for sale.
It attracted immediate interest - enough so that it scared me to death, I refused to let anybody view it and withdrew the ad from sale. So for now, I have 4 cars and I'm keeping 4 cars. I will reconsider after spring, when the Ferrari has had its major service (the cost of which may be enough to cause a new "for sale" ad anyway).
Having secured itself for the foreseeable future, the Aston has behaved itself. Mileage is still creeping up but no problems to report. I do think that the door stays don't keep the doors open as well as they should so may look at that at some point.
I tend to open up my sat nav every couple of months even if I don't need to - bit of an OCD thing to make sure it hasn't secretly stopped working. When I tried that at the weekend, it only opened about 80%. A quick push solved that, and repeated closing / opening didn't repeat the problem so hopefully it was a one off - maybe there was something caught in the gears. If it does fail, I suspect a car cradle and google maps might be the solution I choose.
At the weekend, I did replace all the brake pads. It was really a bit early to do the fronts - probably a good 5mm on them and they only looked about 60% worn next to new pads. But the rears definitely needed doing and it seemed simpler to just do the entire set. I did order handbrake pads too, but didn't have time to fit them (I've read that you need to disconnect the drive shaft for some reason) - and in fact may not bother anyway. The new handbrake pads had a lot less material than I expected which makes me think the old ones are less worn than I thought.
I went for EBC Red Stuff pads - simply because they were available at a reasonable price and I couldn't get anything else (BMG couldn't get me front and rears). Didn't need new sensors - think the front + rear + handbrake pads were just under £300 with vat.
Fitting was easy - a couple of hours in total, including being interrupted by a neighbour for 20 mins. The driver side rear pins were reluctant to move and did get me nervous - but a few decent whacks with the hammer and they shifted. Other calipers were much easier.
The EBCs come with anti-squeal shims, and some lube for the back of the pads. I usually use coppaslip - but this time decided to try using the Euro Car Parts Ceratek(SP?) that I bought recently. I figured that with anti-squeal shims, ceratek on the back of the pads and the fact that the edges of the pads are very chamfered - I wouldn't have a problem with noisy brakes.
Turns out I was wrong. The squealing was absolutely horrendous - at very light and even fairly moderate braking - it was LOUD. It seemed likely I would need to take the pads out and try coppaslip (or the stuff that came in the box with the pads) - but first, I tried a jaunt down a dual carriageway with some reasonably hard braking a few times.
By the time I got home, the brakes were silent. Whether that's because the problem is cured - or, more likely - because they only squeal when cold - I don't know. I didn't have a chance to use the Aston again over the weekend so I'll find out the next time I get the chance.
I was a bit surprised that my front tyres didn't look like they had a huge amount of tread on them - which, considering I only just bought tyres - was a surprise. The rears still had loads of tread left so not sure if the fronts were just lower to start with, or the Michelin PS4s are going to wear out in about 2k miles!
Overall, I'm still a happy owner and have no immediate plans to sell. At some point, I guess I'll find I need a new clutch - and then I might become a rather less happy owner - but I'm still liking this car a lot.
However, contrary to my earlier posts - I wasn't willing to sell the Aston. I therefore visited a dealer to get a ballpark figure for the 360 (which with hindsight was too low) and put the Ferrari up for sale.
It attracted immediate interest - enough so that it scared me to death, I refused to let anybody view it and withdrew the ad from sale. So for now, I have 4 cars and I'm keeping 4 cars. I will reconsider after spring, when the Ferrari has had its major service (the cost of which may be enough to cause a new "for sale" ad anyway).
Having secured itself for the foreseeable future, the Aston has behaved itself. Mileage is still creeping up but no problems to report. I do think that the door stays don't keep the doors open as well as they should so may look at that at some point.
I tend to open up my sat nav every couple of months even if I don't need to - bit of an OCD thing to make sure it hasn't secretly stopped working. When I tried that at the weekend, it only opened about 80%. A quick push solved that, and repeated closing / opening didn't repeat the problem so hopefully it was a one off - maybe there was something caught in the gears. If it does fail, I suspect a car cradle and google maps might be the solution I choose.
At the weekend, I did replace all the brake pads. It was really a bit early to do the fronts - probably a good 5mm on them and they only looked about 60% worn next to new pads. But the rears definitely needed doing and it seemed simpler to just do the entire set. I did order handbrake pads too, but didn't have time to fit them (I've read that you need to disconnect the drive shaft for some reason) - and in fact may not bother anyway. The new handbrake pads had a lot less material than I expected which makes me think the old ones are less worn than I thought.
I went for EBC Red Stuff pads - simply because they were available at a reasonable price and I couldn't get anything else (BMG couldn't get me front and rears). Didn't need new sensors - think the front + rear + handbrake pads were just under £300 with vat.
Fitting was easy - a couple of hours in total, including being interrupted by a neighbour for 20 mins. The driver side rear pins were reluctant to move and did get me nervous - but a few decent whacks with the hammer and they shifted. Other calipers were much easier.
The EBCs come with anti-squeal shims, and some lube for the back of the pads. I usually use coppaslip - but this time decided to try using the Euro Car Parts Ceratek(SP?) that I bought recently. I figured that with anti-squeal shims, ceratek on the back of the pads and the fact that the edges of the pads are very chamfered - I wouldn't have a problem with noisy brakes.
Turns out I was wrong. The squealing was absolutely horrendous - at very light and even fairly moderate braking - it was LOUD. It seemed likely I would need to take the pads out and try coppaslip (or the stuff that came in the box with the pads) - but first, I tried a jaunt down a dual carriageway with some reasonably hard braking a few times.
By the time I got home, the brakes were silent. Whether that's because the problem is cured - or, more likely - because they only squeal when cold - I don't know. I didn't have a chance to use the Aston again over the weekend so I'll find out the next time I get the chance.
I was a bit surprised that my front tyres didn't look like they had a huge amount of tread on them - which, considering I only just bought tyres - was a surprise. The rears still had loads of tread left so not sure if the fronts were just lower to start with, or the Michelin PS4s are going to wear out in about 2k miles!
Overall, I'm still a happy owner and have no immediate plans to sell. At some point, I guess I'll find I need a new clutch - and then I might become a rather less happy owner - but I'm still liking this car a lot.
Edited by davek_964 on Monday 14th August 13:29
Murph7355 said:
If it ever fails the fix is cheap and simple.
https://astonmartinbits.com/models/5-V8-Vantage/pa...
Though IIRC it's actually cheaper by a few quid bought direct.
Takes about 30mins to install it. Say an hour with a drinks break.
Thanks. That's good to know.https://astonmartinbits.com/models/5-V8-Vantage/pa...
Though IIRC it's actually cheaper by a few quid bought direct.
Takes about 30mins to install it. Say an hour with a drinks break.
Minor maintenance today, having discovered yesterday that when I put my handbrake on - on a very slight incline - the car started edging backwards. Handbrake lever was coming up fairly high and I suspect only really holding one wheel. Simple to adjust, instructions here :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
I put the handbrake on two clicks, then tightened the adjuster as much as I could by hand (I.e not using a spanner) and made sure it was beginning to bind on both wheels - car could not easily be moved by hand. Released the handbrake and proved the car moved freely, then tightened the lock nuts.
It does annoy me that despite keeping up the servicing - which is hardly cheap - I am 99% sure that the handbrake has never been adjusted as part of the service for either the Aston or the Ferrari. Which makes me wonder what they do actually do.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
I put the handbrake on two clicks, then tightened the adjuster as much as I could by hand (I.e not using a spanner) and made sure it was beginning to bind on both wheels - car could not easily be moved by hand. Released the handbrake and proved the car moved freely, then tightened the lock nuts.
It does annoy me that despite keeping up the servicing - which is hardly cheap - I am 99% sure that the handbrake has never been adjusted as part of the service for either the Aston or the Ferrari. Which makes me wonder what they do actually do.
I mentioned in my last post that I open the sat nav periodically to check it still works, and that it had taken two attempts. Last weekend I tried it again, and it no longer moved at all.
I ordered the new gears from Aston Bits (almost £30 with postage) and fixed it today. I used this thread for instructions:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=13...
Removal of the ski slope is very easy and is a 5 minute job. Once I'd disconnected the sat nav lid (on my car, two springy bits of wire attached to the nav unit simply hook into the lid) I opened the lid slightly, grabbed the ski slope and pulled (I used the leather next to it as leverage with my thumb). A couple of electrical wires, and it's done.
Replacing the gears was also easy.
When I reassembled the car I found that the lid was having problems. Removing the ski slope again showed me that where the pins of the lid slot into u shaped holes, one of them seemed to be a bit less of a 'u' which allows the pin to start coming out.
I don't see how I broke that, since you don't go anywhere near that when disconnecting the lid from the sat nav - and disconnecting the sat nav from the lid was hardly difficult.
I manufactured a repair with part of a cable clip (since it was curved) and some super glue. I'm not sure how permanent it will be, but if not I will attempt some plastic welding. That's definitely preferable to buying a new ski slope for such a minor issue.
Without the lid problem, the repair was probably between an hour and an hour and a half - very little of that is the time taking the sat nav out of the car, it's just fiddly getting to the gears and replacing them. But not hard.
The weekend I found that the sat nav had failed was also the weekend I found my passenger window wasn't dropping when the door was opened. A quick reset procedure solved it.
Apart from that, the car has been problem free. The new brake pads work well and are quiet. How much it will get used over the winter I'm not sure - I suspect it will be more than the ferrari and the Alfa spider - but this year, I do seem to want to use the Cayenne now the mornings are dark!
I ordered the new gears from Aston Bits (almost £30 with postage) and fixed it today. I used this thread for instructions:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=13...
Removal of the ski slope is very easy and is a 5 minute job. Once I'd disconnected the sat nav lid (on my car, two springy bits of wire attached to the nav unit simply hook into the lid) I opened the lid slightly, grabbed the ski slope and pulled (I used the leather next to it as leverage with my thumb). A couple of electrical wires, and it's done.
Replacing the gears was also easy.
When I reassembled the car I found that the lid was having problems. Removing the ski slope again showed me that where the pins of the lid slot into u shaped holes, one of them seemed to be a bit less of a 'u' which allows the pin to start coming out.
I don't see how I broke that, since you don't go anywhere near that when disconnecting the lid from the sat nav - and disconnecting the sat nav from the lid was hardly difficult.
I manufactured a repair with part of a cable clip (since it was curved) and some super glue. I'm not sure how permanent it will be, but if not I will attempt some plastic welding. That's definitely preferable to buying a new ski slope for such a minor issue.
Without the lid problem, the repair was probably between an hour and an hour and a half - very little of that is the time taking the sat nav out of the car, it's just fiddly getting to the gears and replacing them. But not hard.
The weekend I found that the sat nav had failed was also the weekend I found my passenger window wasn't dropping when the door was opened. A quick reset procedure solved it.
Apart from that, the car has been problem free. The new brake pads work well and are quiet. How much it will get used over the winter I'm not sure - I suspect it will be more than the ferrari and the Alfa spider - but this year, I do seem to want to use the Cayenne now the mornings are dark!
I noticed a link to this in another thread, which reminded me that it's time for an update. Although there isn't a great deal to say.
As winter has arrived, I've used the car much less. Last year, I used the Vantage much more than I expected and it seemed to be the Cayenne that was sitting on the road hardly used. But the purchase of the Alfa Spider in March seems to have shifted my focus, since I now have two "daily" cars (Cayenne and Alfa) so feel I really should be using at least one of them for work. And since the Spider isn't ideal in winter, the Cayenne seems to have become the car of choice at the moment.
Especially since the heated seat on the Vantage has stopped working. I always found it fairly useless anyway (a single heat setting which seemed to be about a million degrees) so haven't worried about it too much. I did check the fuse for "driver seat electrics" - which wasn't blown. However, I know from previous experience that my handbook doesn't always list the correct fuse number. However - electric controls work, and the indicator lights up on the switch for the heated seat so I didn't really think it was a fuse anyway.
Will need to look properly but will probably wait until Spring since it's not that pleasant working on the car when it's parked on a drive in January. Service is due in a couple of months anyway - maybe I'll ask them to take a quick look.
I've used the sat nav once since fixing it, and the fix seems to be working fine. I haven't felt the need to keep checking its working, which suggests that I trust my engineering skills more than AM - which seems rather misplaced.
I am still very happy with the car, however 2018 might be a year of change - I'm not sure yet. I go through phases of thinking I spend too much on cars, and have felt like I've been in one of those phases for about a year, even though I've done nothing about it. So I'm thinking I need to reduce the number of cars I own.
It's actually quite interesting when you look at what it really costs to run "expensive" cars like this. I find it surprisingly tempting to be semi-sensible : sell the 360, sell the Vantage, sell the Alfa Spider. Buy a new MX5 (like the shape, and the Alfa has convinced me I like convertibles) and maybe replace the Cayenne with a slightly newer one. Nice new fun car, all under warranty, cheap servicing etc. etc. But - depreciation is a killer - over a couple of years, a new MX5 would cost me more - in real terms - than the Ferrari or Vantage would to run in the same period. In fact, unless I have a couple of bad years on both cars, it's probably not far from the two combined! Admittedly road tax / insurance etc. are cheaper on an MX5 - but the 360 is pre-2006 anyway so is only ~£300 to tax and I'm old enough that insurance isn't so bad.
So - it seems unlikely the Aston will be partially replaced with a new MX5. But the other alternative going through my mind at the moment is : Sell the Alfa, sell the Aston, sell the Ferrari and buy a Vantage Roadster. It would be nice to keep the Ferrari too, but would mean sinking an additional ~£20k into cars, and I'm not sure I really want to do that.
So we'll see how this year goes. Nothing drives like the 360 - however, if I do decide to reduce cars, I think I'd rather have a soft top Vantage that I can use much more often than to lose the Vantage and keep the 360. The downside of course is that manual roadsters are not very common - and manual roadsters in a colour I'd want are even less common. But once spring is here and the servicing on my cars is up to date, I may start seriously browsing.....
As winter has arrived, I've used the car much less. Last year, I used the Vantage much more than I expected and it seemed to be the Cayenne that was sitting on the road hardly used. But the purchase of the Alfa Spider in March seems to have shifted my focus, since I now have two "daily" cars (Cayenne and Alfa) so feel I really should be using at least one of them for work. And since the Spider isn't ideal in winter, the Cayenne seems to have become the car of choice at the moment.
Especially since the heated seat on the Vantage has stopped working. I always found it fairly useless anyway (a single heat setting which seemed to be about a million degrees) so haven't worried about it too much. I did check the fuse for "driver seat electrics" - which wasn't blown. However, I know from previous experience that my handbook doesn't always list the correct fuse number. However - electric controls work, and the indicator lights up on the switch for the heated seat so I didn't really think it was a fuse anyway.
Will need to look properly but will probably wait until Spring since it's not that pleasant working on the car when it's parked on a drive in January. Service is due in a couple of months anyway - maybe I'll ask them to take a quick look.
I've used the sat nav once since fixing it, and the fix seems to be working fine. I haven't felt the need to keep checking its working, which suggests that I trust my engineering skills more than AM - which seems rather misplaced.
I am still very happy with the car, however 2018 might be a year of change - I'm not sure yet. I go through phases of thinking I spend too much on cars, and have felt like I've been in one of those phases for about a year, even though I've done nothing about it. So I'm thinking I need to reduce the number of cars I own.
It's actually quite interesting when you look at what it really costs to run "expensive" cars like this. I find it surprisingly tempting to be semi-sensible : sell the 360, sell the Vantage, sell the Alfa Spider. Buy a new MX5 (like the shape, and the Alfa has convinced me I like convertibles) and maybe replace the Cayenne with a slightly newer one. Nice new fun car, all under warranty, cheap servicing etc. etc. But - depreciation is a killer - over a couple of years, a new MX5 would cost me more - in real terms - than the Ferrari or Vantage would to run in the same period. In fact, unless I have a couple of bad years on both cars, it's probably not far from the two combined! Admittedly road tax / insurance etc. are cheaper on an MX5 - but the 360 is pre-2006 anyway so is only ~£300 to tax and I'm old enough that insurance isn't so bad.
So - it seems unlikely the Aston will be partially replaced with a new MX5. But the other alternative going through my mind at the moment is : Sell the Alfa, sell the Aston, sell the Ferrari and buy a Vantage Roadster. It would be nice to keep the Ferrari too, but would mean sinking an additional ~£20k into cars, and I'm not sure I really want to do that.
So we'll see how this year goes. Nothing drives like the 360 - however, if I do decide to reduce cars, I think I'd rather have a soft top Vantage that I can use much more often than to lose the Vantage and keep the 360. The downside of course is that manual roadsters are not very common - and manual roadsters in a colour I'd want are even less common. But once spring is here and the servicing on my cars is up to date, I may start seriously browsing.....
Although it hasn't been long since the last one, a brief update since there are a few things to mention.
I booked the car in for its service today - although that won't actually happen until the first week in March, Spellbound (the indy I use in Farnham) mailed me to remind me that they're offering 15% discount on labour for any cars where the booking is made before the end of January. Can't argue with a 15% discount, so called them today.
Apparently the car is due a 10 year / 100k service - which is slightly odd since it's 12 years old - but in the last 2 years it had 8 & 9 year services so I guess it makes sense.
And, it needs a service since it feels like it's started falling apart! I mentioned that the heated seat didn't seem to work anymore - I need to test this properly, and see if the passenger seat works. I asked for it to be checked as part of the service in case I don't get around to it. If it is simply the heating part of the seat - and unless that is a lot cheaper to replace than I expect - I may ignore it considering it isn't the greatest anyway.
I also think the heated windscreen isn't working - it took ages to demist yesterday and was no quicker than my other cars. Checked the fuses which are fine, so will carry out some more testing - I know I can test for power at the windscreen connector so I will try to get that done in the next month. Again, if I fail - or don't find the cause - they can check it at the service.
The belt has also started squeaking which is really annoying - and a tad embarrassing. It means I have to rev the car more so the exhaust drowns out the squeak......
Usually, I get the cars MOT'd at the same time as the service. However, I feel I got caught out with the 360 last year where I was told that I needed brake pads for the MOT - even though I'm sure I didn't - which meant that I ended up paying £100+ an hour for a job I can very easily do myself (note : this was not at Spellbound).
So this time, I will try to get an MOT the week before the service. If it fails - and it's not something I can easily fix myself - then it can be sorted at the service, and they can MOT it too.
Hopefully, the service bill won't be expensive - the 15% discount should compensate for the extra investigations.
I booked the car in for its service today - although that won't actually happen until the first week in March, Spellbound (the indy I use in Farnham) mailed me to remind me that they're offering 15% discount on labour for any cars where the booking is made before the end of January. Can't argue with a 15% discount, so called them today.
Apparently the car is due a 10 year / 100k service - which is slightly odd since it's 12 years old - but in the last 2 years it had 8 & 9 year services so I guess it makes sense.
And, it needs a service since it feels like it's started falling apart! I mentioned that the heated seat didn't seem to work anymore - I need to test this properly, and see if the passenger seat works. I asked for it to be checked as part of the service in case I don't get around to it. If it is simply the heating part of the seat - and unless that is a lot cheaper to replace than I expect - I may ignore it considering it isn't the greatest anyway.
I also think the heated windscreen isn't working - it took ages to demist yesterday and was no quicker than my other cars. Checked the fuses which are fine, so will carry out some more testing - I know I can test for power at the windscreen connector so I will try to get that done in the next month. Again, if I fail - or don't find the cause - they can check it at the service.
The belt has also started squeaking which is really annoying - and a tad embarrassing. It means I have to rev the car more so the exhaust drowns out the squeak......
Usually, I get the cars MOT'd at the same time as the service. However, I feel I got caught out with the 360 last year where I was told that I needed brake pads for the MOT - even though I'm sure I didn't - which meant that I ended up paying £100+ an hour for a job I can very easily do myself (note : this was not at Spellbound).
So this time, I will try to get an MOT the week before the service. If it fails - and it's not something I can easily fix myself - then it can be sorted at the service, and they can MOT it too.
Hopefully, the service bill won't be expensive - the 15% discount should compensate for the extra investigations.
justin220 said:
I enjoy reading your updates!
I've got a manual roadster (n420) which I might be looking to sell this year.
Also, does your V8 definitely have a heated windscreen as I don't think mine does?
It does yes - I believe the heated windscreen stopped being an option when they moved the aerial into the windscreen (think this was done as part of the 4.7 changes?).I've got a manual roadster (n420) which I might be looking to sell this year.
Also, does your V8 definitely have a heated windscreen as I don't think mine does?
When I bought the car, only the passenger side worked. Fortunately, some chips on the driver side meant I needed a new windscreen
It definitely worked last winter - and it's unlikely both sides of the windscreen have failed at the same time - so I need to investigate it really.
Used the heated screen today and it definitely did work - no idea why it was so rubbish at clearing the screen yesterday but at least that's one thing that doesn't seem to be broken.
I still can't decide if the heated seat is working or not. It's definitely not getting as hot as I remember though, so I suspect that isn't working. May try sitting in the passenger seat later to compare!
For whatever reason - despite its apparent problems - I'm loving the car at the moment and have used it for work every day this week.
I still can't decide if the heated seat is working or not. It's definitely not getting as hot as I remember though, so I suspect that isn't working. May try sitting in the passenger seat later to compare!
For whatever reason - despite its apparent problems - I'm loving the car at the moment and have used it for work every day this week.
Update time.
Car had its MOT a week or so back and passed with no advisories. Today it had its service at Spellbound - the Indy I use in Farnham. For anybody else in the area, they're in roughly the same place but have moved buildings and downsized significantly since I was last there so I wonder if they'll still be there next year. I hope so since I'm generally happy with their work.
I suspect that my basic service cost may be an unpleasant surprise because I asked them to confirm that the problem with the driver seat heating was the seat pads. When i called them for an update this afternoon it seems that diagnoses involved taking the seat out (in fact, I think he said they still need to put the 'seats' back in) so I guess I have a fair labour charge added to the service.
They also listed some other work, with prices. Because I booked on a promotional offer, I am entitled to a 15% labour discount for this service and any associated work. I reminded them of this after being given the prices, and apparently that's already been applied.
1) Replace bank 1 sensor 1 oxygen sensor due to slow response fault code. £220.38 + VAT
2) Replace brake pedal switch(fault code logged). £52.84 + VAT
3) Replace faulty handbrake calliper on o/s/r (refit old pads) £312.39 + VAT
4) Replace o/s/f upper wishbone due to bush moving in arm. £334.98 + VAT
5) Replace fuel filler cap tether. £57.49 + VAT
6) Replace wiper blades (free fitting) £46.37 + VAT
1) doesn't surprise me - car showed an emission warning about 5 months ago (it's probably even mentioned in this thread) - I cleared it and it hasn't happened since. I can do this myself and it looks like that would save me about £100 so will not authorise that work. Given that it's only thrown the code once, and just passed emissions at an MOT I doubt I will do it yet anyway.
2) Although it's logged a fault code, it's working now and again passed an MOT. I'll keep an eye on it - obviously I don't want people driving into the back of me but if it does need doing I'll do it myself. I'm a bit reluctant to do it without a bit more evidence because I remember stupidly turning the ignition on when I had the centre console disconnected and I got a Christmas tree of warning lights. So although I can't imagine why that might cause a brake pedal switch fault, I wonder if it's left over from that.
3) They tell me that the pads are low (they are a bit low but not enough that I felt they needed replacing when I did the main pads in the autumn, even though I had bought some). However, they are saying that the calliper is only clamping properly sometimes. That might explain why my handbrake sometimes works better than others. However, I'm not sure that means the calliper necessarily needs replacing and even if it does, Aston Bits list used ones. I will investigate this myself when the weather warms up slightly. If I have to repair or replace the calliper I will fit the new pads at the same time, so there is no point them doing it.
4) Aston Bits list the part for just over £240 plus delivery. So at least £250 delivered. That makes £150 Inc VAT for them to do it quite appealing - so they can.
5) The wire snapped where it fits to the cap a few months back - I keep meaning to fix it. I am not paying £60 for a new bit of wire - I'm pretty sure I can re-attach the wire, albeit a few mm shorter.
6) I nearly got them to do this. I've seen that I could get other blades (Bosch / Michelin) but I've always thought the Vantage wipers were very good, so why change. Aston are only about £2 cheaper if I buy the blades from them so no real saving doing it myself. But, I don't remember any indication that they needed replacing - I think they worked fine - and even if it is the same price (or cheaper by the time I've driven to Aston to get the new parts) it just feels wrong letting them do this - even though it's labour free. I'll give them a good check when I get the car back and pay attention the next time I use the car in the rain, and replace if necessary.
Not expecting the car back until Thursday. Guess the bill will be over £1k but well under £1,500 so not too dreadful - but I may have to spend a few hundred more, particularly if I have to buy a handbrake calliper.
Overall, reasonably happy.
Car had its MOT a week or so back and passed with no advisories. Today it had its service at Spellbound - the Indy I use in Farnham. For anybody else in the area, they're in roughly the same place but have moved buildings and downsized significantly since I was last there so I wonder if they'll still be there next year. I hope so since I'm generally happy with their work.
I suspect that my basic service cost may be an unpleasant surprise because I asked them to confirm that the problem with the driver seat heating was the seat pads. When i called them for an update this afternoon it seems that diagnoses involved taking the seat out (in fact, I think he said they still need to put the 'seats' back in) so I guess I have a fair labour charge added to the service.
They also listed some other work, with prices. Because I booked on a promotional offer, I am entitled to a 15% labour discount for this service and any associated work. I reminded them of this after being given the prices, and apparently that's already been applied.
1) Replace bank 1 sensor 1 oxygen sensor due to slow response fault code. £220.38 + VAT
2) Replace brake pedal switch(fault code logged). £52.84 + VAT
3) Replace faulty handbrake calliper on o/s/r (refit old pads) £312.39 + VAT
4) Replace o/s/f upper wishbone due to bush moving in arm. £334.98 + VAT
5) Replace fuel filler cap tether. £57.49 + VAT
6) Replace wiper blades (free fitting) £46.37 + VAT
1) doesn't surprise me - car showed an emission warning about 5 months ago (it's probably even mentioned in this thread) - I cleared it and it hasn't happened since. I can do this myself and it looks like that would save me about £100 so will not authorise that work. Given that it's only thrown the code once, and just passed emissions at an MOT I doubt I will do it yet anyway.
2) Although it's logged a fault code, it's working now and again passed an MOT. I'll keep an eye on it - obviously I don't want people driving into the back of me but if it does need doing I'll do it myself. I'm a bit reluctant to do it without a bit more evidence because I remember stupidly turning the ignition on when I had the centre console disconnected and I got a Christmas tree of warning lights. So although I can't imagine why that might cause a brake pedal switch fault, I wonder if it's left over from that.
3) They tell me that the pads are low (they are a bit low but not enough that I felt they needed replacing when I did the main pads in the autumn, even though I had bought some). However, they are saying that the calliper is only clamping properly sometimes. That might explain why my handbrake sometimes works better than others. However, I'm not sure that means the calliper necessarily needs replacing and even if it does, Aston Bits list used ones. I will investigate this myself when the weather warms up slightly. If I have to repair or replace the calliper I will fit the new pads at the same time, so there is no point them doing it.
4) Aston Bits list the part for just over £240 plus delivery. So at least £250 delivered. That makes £150 Inc VAT for them to do it quite appealing - so they can.
5) The wire snapped where it fits to the cap a few months back - I keep meaning to fix it. I am not paying £60 for a new bit of wire - I'm pretty sure I can re-attach the wire, albeit a few mm shorter.
6) I nearly got them to do this. I've seen that I could get other blades (Bosch / Michelin) but I've always thought the Vantage wipers were very good, so why change. Aston are only about £2 cheaper if I buy the blades from them so no real saving doing it myself. But, I don't remember any indication that they needed replacing - I think they worked fine - and even if it is the same price (or cheaper by the time I've driven to Aston to get the new parts) it just feels wrong letting them do this - even though it's labour free. I'll give them a good check when I get the car back and pay attention the next time I use the car in the rain, and replace if necessary.
Not expecting the car back until Thursday. Guess the bill will be over £1k but well under £1,500 so not too dreadful - but I may have to spend a few hundred more, particularly if I have to buy a handbrake calliper.
Overall, reasonably happy.
justin220 said:
I think sometimes dealers think these cars come in with owners willing to write blank cheques.
So far on my V8 the servicing costs have been reasonable, but I've had some frankly horrendous quotes for parts/replacement bits that I'm sure some people are willing to just pay. Not me. Always worth a challenge.
Finding myself in the PH classifieds quite often these days looking for a replacement for my Vantage, but really not sure what to go for next.
I think their prices a fairly reasonable for the work they've quoted - and I kind of like that they go through the car so thoroughly.So far on my V8 the servicing costs have been reasonable, but I've had some frankly horrendous quotes for parts/replacement bits that I'm sure some people are willing to just pay. Not me. Always worth a challenge.
Finding myself in the PH classifieds quite often these days looking for a replacement for my Vantage, but really not sure what to go for next.
But I agree, sometimes garages can come up with scary prices!
There was another addition to the bill today. When I booked the car in, I'd had a squeaking belt for a few weeks - despite having the modified pulley, which had already been replaced 2 years ago to replace a squeaking belt (and the pulley they replaced was already the modified part).
It stopped squeaking a few weeks ago, and I'd forgotten all about it - but they mentioned it when I dropped the car off. I told them to forget about it since it had stopped.
However, they contacted me this morning and said that when they moved the car, the belt was squeaking - so I asked them to check why.
They have replaced the belt (~£80 fitted) - I'm a little annoyed they didn't check with me first - I don't think "check why" really means "fix it" but it's a fairly minor cost so I can live with it. The reason I'm annoyed is probably more to do with the fact that it seems to squeak every year, regardless of whether I have belt / pulley replaced so if that was the solution I would have been tempted to ignore it - I suspect it would not have squealed in summer anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new belt is squealing again by next winter.
But anyway - car is now ready for collection and I will get it after work. Total bill is £1241.17 (inc) which is less than I expected. The wishbone was ~£400 inc fitted, and the belt was another ~£80 which means the service cost - including diagnosing the problem with the heated seat, which seemed to involve removing the seat - came in at ~£750. Whilst some of my friends would say that's at least 3 times what a service should cost, I think it's pretty reasonable.
It stopped squeaking a few weeks ago, and I'd forgotten all about it - but they mentioned it when I dropped the car off. I told them to forget about it since it had stopped.
However, they contacted me this morning and said that when they moved the car, the belt was squeaking - so I asked them to check why.
They have replaced the belt (~£80 fitted) - I'm a little annoyed they didn't check with me first - I don't think "check why" really means "fix it" but it's a fairly minor cost so I can live with it. The reason I'm annoyed is probably more to do with the fact that it seems to squeak every year, regardless of whether I have belt / pulley replaced so if that was the solution I would have been tempted to ignore it - I suspect it would not have squealed in summer anyway, and I wouldn't be surprised if the new belt is squealing again by next winter.
But anyway - car is now ready for collection and I will get it after work. Total bill is £1241.17 (inc) which is less than I expected. The wishbone was ~£400 inc fitted, and the belt was another ~£80 which means the service cost - including diagnosing the problem with the heated seat, which seemed to involve removing the seat - came in at ~£750. Whilst some of my friends would say that's at least 3 times what a service should cost, I think it's pretty reasonable.
Edited by davek_964 on Thursday 8th March 12:52
Shnozz said:
I swapped depreciation for service bills some years ago. Have barely suffered a penny in depreciation since (made money on 1 TVR and on my Exige), but then equally have had service bills no less than about £1k since, up to some of nearly £10k. Swings and roundabouts. Some years I think I should just finance something new with a warranty and negligible chance of faults, other years I have got lucky and needed nothing other than an oil change and fuel.
Same here.A few months ago, i considered being sensible and reducing my cars and buying a new MX5. Until I realised that depreciation meant it would cost more to run for 3 years than either my Vantage or the 360. Which is insane.
olv said:
Did they say what was wrong with your heated seat? My driver one doesn’t work and I’ve checked the fuses for it which seem fine. Fearing that’s it’s something more expensive to resolve.
They confirmed it was the seat pads / elements. I had a quote for that before the service which I think was about ~£550 Inc, a lot of which is labour top strip the seats. I think I started a thread about it and mentioned it there. I may buy the parts and the get an upholsterer to do it, which I suspect will be cheaper. But will probably wait until autumn now.Damn.
Yesterday, the 360 was MOT'd - and passed. Great I thought.
Except that on my way home with the Vantage, my right indicators suddenly started flashing quickly - and bulb failure came up on the dash.
In fact, all indicators were working - but the rear was dimmer than the LHS, and clearly has water in it again - the sealant I tried to fix it with last year has dried, cracked and let water in.
This time, I managed to find an orientation that allowed me to get the light in the oven to dry out. That's a good thing, and avoided 3 hours with a hairdryer blowing air through the drilled holes.
However - the bad thing is that I found a thread on this which suggested setting the oven to 120. That seemed a tad high to me, but since it was apparently the right temperature that's what I did. And melted the end of the lens.
So, now I definitely need at least one rear light. I have always wanted clears, and this is the excuse to get them - but initial checks last night seem to suggest that whereas they were ~£800 a year or so back, they are now ~£1,500???? I need to do some more research today - Aston Bits seem to have a new clear set for ~£950 - although it says "grey surround" which I don't understand. At least my red lights don't have any surround around the lens - only the center strip which you have to move to the new lights.
They also have a used RH rear lamp in red which is ~£450 - which a tad expensive for a used lamp I think, but might be something I have to consider.
If anybody else has suggestions of where to get a RHS rear red lamp - or a clear set for a decent price - I'm listening!
Yesterday, the 360 was MOT'd - and passed. Great I thought.
Except that on my way home with the Vantage, my right indicators suddenly started flashing quickly - and bulb failure came up on the dash.
In fact, all indicators were working - but the rear was dimmer than the LHS, and clearly has water in it again - the sealant I tried to fix it with last year has dried, cracked and let water in.
This time, I managed to find an orientation that allowed me to get the light in the oven to dry out. That's a good thing, and avoided 3 hours with a hairdryer blowing air through the drilled holes.
However - the bad thing is that I found a thread on this which suggested setting the oven to 120. That seemed a tad high to me, but since it was apparently the right temperature that's what I did. And melted the end of the lens.
So, now I definitely need at least one rear light. I have always wanted clears, and this is the excuse to get them - but initial checks last night seem to suggest that whereas they were ~£800 a year or so back, they are now ~£1,500???? I need to do some more research today - Aston Bits seem to have a new clear set for ~£950 - although it says "grey surround" which I don't understand. At least my red lights don't have any surround around the lens - only the center strip which you have to move to the new lights.
They also have a used RH rear lamp in red which is ~£450 - which a tad expensive for a used lamp I think, but might be something I have to consider.
If anybody else has suggestions of where to get a RHS rear red lamp - or a clear set for a decent price - I'm listening!
Ok, so :
Aston want £728.58 + vat for a new red lamp, and £961.86 + vat (£1154.94) for an entire clear light kit.
However - Paul (the guy I bought my new grill from a year or so back) can give me the clear kit for £950 (£875 for the pair + £75 for the high level boot light) - plus a part ex for my working light, which will be agreed when he sees it.
So, I need to remove the remaining working rear light and the high level light in the boot - and we have pencilled in Sunday for me to collect the new lights.
I am tempted to stick with the red high level light - although I want clears for the corners, I think the high level light looks OK in red (it's almost invisible on a black car) so I will decide in the next few days whether to change it. It's certainly less hassle to avoid taking it out, and would bring the price down a tad - but we'll see. Think I need to search for pics of black cars with clear lights and see what the high level light looks like.
Aston want £728.58 + vat for a new red lamp, and £961.86 + vat (£1154.94) for an entire clear light kit.
However - Paul (the guy I bought my new grill from a year or so back) can give me the clear kit for £950 (£875 for the pair + £75 for the high level boot light) - plus a part ex for my working light, which will be agreed when he sees it.
So, I need to remove the remaining working rear light and the high level light in the boot - and we have pencilled in Sunday for me to collect the new lights.
I am tempted to stick with the red high level light - although I want clears for the corners, I think the high level light looks OK in red (it's almost invisible on a black car) so I will decide in the next few days whether to change it. It's certainly less hassle to avoid taking it out, and would bring the price down a tad - but we'll see. Think I need to search for pics of black cars with clear lights and see what the high level light looks like.
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