Discussion
Ok so a friend of mines Father passed away last year and has a will with his late fathers wife my friends step mum, however they never had a good relationship with the step mother.
The Father and Stepmother Owned some cars of no great value but had 3 properties 2 of which are mortgage free, 1 Home and 2 investment properties (Bulk of the estate is property).
The will was redrafted in 2019 but states that my friend and his sister are to be gifted a few watches but no mention of the properties, however there is a sum of £175, 000 to be paid to each of his children (Brother & Sister). My friend and his sister were always told that a property one be sold upon one them dying so the children each would get a lump sum.
The will has been read and clearly states that my friend and sister are to get the 175, 000 each but the step mother is refusing to sell properties none of which are listed in the will and the cash in the late fathers bank was around 60-70k. The mother has sold the cars and raised about 7k (She has bought a 30k car for herself) which she has given along with the 60-70k at bank but she is refusing to honour the 175k x2 lump sums to each of his children. She is saying as he didn't have 310k in the bank its not her issue.
As the properties are not listed what can they do?
The Father and Stepmother Owned some cars of no great value but had 3 properties 2 of which are mortgage free, 1 Home and 2 investment properties (Bulk of the estate is property).
The will was redrafted in 2019 but states that my friend and his sister are to be gifted a few watches but no mention of the properties, however there is a sum of £175, 000 to be paid to each of his children (Brother & Sister). My friend and his sister were always told that a property one be sold upon one them dying so the children each would get a lump sum.
The will has been read and clearly states that my friend and sister are to get the 175, 000 each but the step mother is refusing to sell properties none of which are listed in the will and the cash in the late fathers bank was around 60-70k. The mother has sold the cars and raised about 7k (She has bought a 30k car for herself) which she has given along with the 60-70k at bank but she is refusing to honour the 175k x2 lump sums to each of his children. She is saying as he didn't have 310k in the bank its not her issue.
As the properties are not listed what can they do?
Edited by Adminstrator on Friday 5th May 11:00
I'm no expert but would assume that unless the will specifically said they are left £ 175k each in actual cash providing and only if those funds are in place then any will has to be enacted with the estate as a whole in mind.
As such whoever is acting as Executor has to distribute the proceeds accordingly.
If this means SM has to sell the property to provide the funds then so be it.
Not sure what happens if post any IHT there is less than the £350k left but sounds like that won't be an issue anyway.
As such whoever is acting as Executor has to distribute the proceeds accordingly.
If this means SM has to sell the property to provide the funds then so be it.
Not sure what happens if post any IHT there is less than the £350k left but sounds like that won't be an issue anyway.
Depends how the properties are / were held.
See: https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/making-a-will...
As there's a decent chunk of change involved your friend and his sister should go and get some proper legal advice. I expect a few hours with a solicitor will be sufficient to check land registry and to advise them broadly on their position and the options available.
See: https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/making-a-will...
As there's a decent chunk of change involved your friend and his sister should go and get some proper legal advice. I expect a few hours with a solicitor will be sufficient to check land registry and to advise them broadly on their position and the options available.
alscar said:
I'm no expert but would assume that unless the will specifically said they are left £ 175k each in actual cash providing and only if those funds are in place then any will has to be enacted with the estate as a whole in mind.
As such whoever is acting as Executor has to distribute the proceeds accordingly.
If this means SM has to sell the property to provide the funds then so be it.
Not sure what happens if post any IHT there is less than the £350k left but sounds like that won't be an issue anyway.
Would a competent solicitor not have listed the properties? I have only seen a couple of wills but any property was listed.As such whoever is acting as Executor has to distribute the proceeds accordingly.
If this means SM has to sell the property to provide the funds then so be it.
Not sure what happens if post any IHT there is less than the £350k left but sounds like that won't be an issue anyway.
The only property listed in this will is his later fathers 1-2k watch collection of 6 watches all but one left to the son.
Vehicles as said 7k for 3 all old fairly worthless.
The only value is the jointly owned properties 2No, 3 bed houses worth around 300k each and a 3k bungalow large plot worth around 550k.
I guessed they would need proper legal advice.
Adminstrator said:
Would a competent solicitor not have listed the properties? I have only seen a couple of wills but any property was listed.
The only property listed in this will is his later fathers 1-2k watch collection of 6 watches all but one left to the son.
Vehicles as said 7k for 3 all old fairly worthless.
The only value is the jointly owned properties 2No, 3 bed houses worth around 300k each and a 3k bungalow large plot worth around 550k.
I guessed they would need proper legal advice.
Conversely any wills that I have seen ( or made ) either simply say the residue of any estate and also sums of money to be specifically distributed from the proceeds of said estate but yes they definitely need proper legal advice.The only property listed in this will is his later fathers 1-2k watch collection of 6 watches all but one left to the son.
Vehicles as said 7k for 3 all old fairly worthless.
The only value is the jointly owned properties 2No, 3 bed houses worth around 300k each and a 3k bungalow large plot worth around 550k.
I guessed they would need proper legal advice.
Personally speaking only I suspect that they should receive the sums mentioned.
Who is the executor of the will? Has probate been obtained? I doubt he had a will 'with' his wife (step mum,) they would have separate wills. Your friend needs to see a copy of the father's will.
Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:27
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:34
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:36
megaphone said:
Who is the executor of the will? Has probate been obtained? I doubt he had a will 'with' his wife (step mum,) they would have separate wills. Your friend needs to see a copy of the father's will.
Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Thanks I have seen the will, its not joint I didn't explain that well it is the father's will.Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:27
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:34
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:36
The executor is the step mother, probate has been granted, the step mother applied for it but had to wait for an inquest I believe as he didn't die of natural causes he took his own life (61 years old) which muddied the water somewhat.
The son did have some communication with him but didn't see him that often, he had a nervous breakdown some years ago and was off work for 6 months. They had no idea he was unhappy now though as he had holidays booked was comfortably well off and about to retire this year.
The stepmother agrees the properties were joint but that they were her pension as she has been self employed and not got ant real pension, she claimed she believed he had more money than the 70k but their bank accounts were separate at her request.
The concern is she has already given monies to her own daughter, as the step sister in debt had been in rented and working part time and now she has just bought a £400k house and is rotavating it.
Edited by Adminstrator on Friday 5th May 13:41
Adminstrator said:
The stepmother agrees the properties were joint but that they were her pension as she has been self employed and not got ant real pension, she claimed she believed he had more money than the 70k but their bank accounts were separate at her request.
AIUI, if the properties were bought as "joint tenants" then ownership will go in entirety to the Stepmother and won't be considered part of the estate. If they bought as tenants in common then his share of the properties becomes part of the estate and will be inhertied by whoever is named in the will...Chris
And just to add, the listing of any assets is not necessary in the will for them to be part of the estate. What the estate is turns on the facts of what he owned. Hence the need to get a legal expert to look at the ownership of the properties and then the contents of the estate and the precedence of honouring the will. If the properties do fall out of the estate for the purposes of settling the will and there's not enough cash to honour the bequests, there will be a way of dealing with it.
If the executor has cocked it up innocently or by design, then again I assume there is legal recourse (painful though I expect it would be to contest it).
If the executor has cocked it up innocently or by design, then again I assume there is legal recourse (painful though I expect it would be to contest it).
Adminstrator said:
megaphone said:
Who is the executor of the will? Has probate been obtained? I doubt he had a will 'with' his wife (step mum,) they would have separate wills. Your friend needs to see a copy of the father's will.
Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Thanks I have seen the will, its not joint I didn't explain that well it is the father's will.Your friend also needs to establish who legally owned the properties, maybe they where in her name? Where they owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed. see this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:27
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:34
Edited by megaphone on Friday 5th May 12:36
The executor is the step mother, probate has been granted, the step mother applied for it but had to wait for an inquest I believe as he didn't die of natural causes he took his own life (61 years old) which muddied the water somewhat.
The son did have some communication with him but didn't see him that often, he had a nervous breakdown some years ago and was off work for 6 months. They had no idea he was unhappy now though as he had holidays booked was comfortably well off and about to retire this year.
The stepmother agrees the properties were joint but that they were her pension as she has been self employed and not got ant real pension, she claimed she believed he had more money than the 70k but their bank accounts were separate at her request.
The concern is she has already given monies to her own daughter, as the step sister in debt had been in rented and working part time and now she has just bought a £400k house and is rotavating it.
Edited by Adminstrator on Friday 5th May 13:41
See this link
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
megaphone said:
Next step is your friend needs to establish the joint ownership. Were the properties owned as 'joint tenants' or 'tenants in common'. If joint tenants then they may be screwed.
Correct.No need to rush off immediately for expensive legal advice; you can check the property ownership yourself at the Land Registry for around £3 per property. All you need to know is the addresses and then ask online to see the Titles.
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-lan...
A simple jointly owned property is owned jointly on a 50/50 basis. (Bear with me.) If one person dies the whole property then remains in sole ownership of the survivor. This is automatic and means the half share never forms part of the deceased's estate under their Will.
If in the Title you read that the property is held "on trust for sale" this means it's owned as "tenants in common" and the ratio of ownership might be 50/50 or 70/30 or whatever else they agreed at the outset. If one person dies the property does NOT automatically go to the other. The deceased's share forms part of their estate and the joint ownership is between the survivor, whose position is unchanged, and the executors of the deceased who are responsible for dealing with the deceased's share in accordance with the Will. HOWEVER, the executors can't force a sale against the wishes of the surviving joint owner.
Panamax said:
Correct.
No need to rush off immediately for expensive legal advice; you can check the property ownership yourself at the Land Registry for around £3 per property. All you need to know is the addresses and then ask online to see the Titles.
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-lan...
A simple jointly owned property is owned jointly on a 50/50 basis. (Bear with me.) If one person dies the whole property then remains in sole ownership of the survivor. This is automatic and means the half share never forms part of the deceased's estate under their Will.
If in the Title you read that the property is held "on trust for sale" this means it's owned as "tenants in common" and the ratio of ownership might be 50/50 or 70/30 or whatever else they agreed at the outset. If one person dies the property does NOT automatically go to the other. The deceased's share forms part of their estate and the joint ownership is between the survivor, whose position is unchanged, and the executors of the deceased who are responsible for dealing with the deceased's share in accordance with the Will. HOWEVER, the executors can't force a sale against the wishes of the surviving joint owner.
He knows the step mothers, daughters ex and he was told that if one the parents died the deceased children would benefit from the sale of a one of the rental properties in the form of a lump sum.No need to rush off immediately for expensive legal advice; you can check the property ownership yourself at the Land Registry for around £3 per property. All you need to know is the addresses and then ask online to see the Titles.
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-lan...
A simple jointly owned property is owned jointly on a 50/50 basis. (Bear with me.) If one person dies the whole property then remains in sole ownership of the survivor. This is automatic and means the half share never forms part of the deceased's estate under their Will.
If in the Title you read that the property is held "on trust for sale" this means it's owned as "tenants in common" and the ratio of ownership might be 50/50 or 70/30 or whatever else they agreed at the outset. If one person dies the property does NOT automatically go to the other. The deceased's share forms part of their estate and the joint ownership is between the survivor, whose position is unchanged, and the executors of the deceased who are responsible for dealing with the deceased's share in accordance with the Will. HOWEVER, the executors can't force a sale against the wishes of the surviving joint owner.
It appears now the husband is dead she is trying to avoid selling the properties one of which is tenanted and the other is being lived in by the daughter who split from her husband a few years ago, the new house this daughter has bought is not in a bad state but she us having it renovated anyway prior to moving in whilst living in one of the investment properties. Also we have been told she does not intend to sell this second rental property, it has been offered to the Step Mothers Niece next as a rental home. She has however had the roof done and the some exterior works which he my friend did think was so she could sell it.
Adminstrator said:
...
As the properties are not listed what can they do?
Be grateful for the cash they've had basically.As the properties are not listed what can they do?
Edited by Adminstrator on Friday 5th May 11:00
They need to accept that the father re-married and the joint-owned properties were not his to leave to them, so notionally leaving them loads of cash he didn't have was an expensive mistake.
Maybe they could go after the solicitor who advised him or drafted the will.
Adminstrator said:
Would a competent solicitor not have listed the properties? I have only seen a couple of wills but any property was listed.
The only property listed in this will is his later fathers 1-2k watch collection of 6 watches all but one left to the son.
Vehicles as said 7k for 3 all old fairly worthless.
The only value is the jointly owned properties 2No, 3 bed houses worth around 300k each and a 3k bungalow large plot worth around 550k.
I guessed they would need proper legal advice.
The problem with naming specific properties is if they are sold, or of course more bought.The only property listed in this will is his later fathers 1-2k watch collection of 6 watches all but one left to the son.
Vehicles as said 7k for 3 all old fairly worthless.
The only value is the jointly owned properties 2No, 3 bed houses worth around 300k each and a 3k bungalow large plot worth around 550k.
I guessed they would need proper legal advice.
5lab said:
It might be worth checking what state his pension was in. If he has a defined benefit pension it wouldn't be unusual to find a few hundred k in it. This should have been left to someone under the terms of the scheme and may not be mentioned in the will
Most likely with the stepmother “A pension from a defined benefit pot can usually only be paid to a dependant of the person who died, for example a husband, wife, civil partner or child under 23. It can sometimes be paid to someone else if the pension scheme's rules allow it - but it will be taxed at up to 55% as an unauthorised payment”
Legal advice is required !
“Does an executor have to show accounting to beneficiaries?
Once the Grant of Probate has been issued, the executor has to keep accounts and have these ready to show beneficiaries if they ask for them”
https://www.human-law.co.uk/_cmroot/human-law.co.u...
I dont have any advice to offer, but nothing reinforces how greedy people can be than someone dying and a will reading.
I went through similar many years ago, my dad died, left similar caveats (verbal) about houses to be sold, and my step mum got everything, my brother and I didnt get a penny, we never got to see the will. Ive often wondered if its worth the hassle of trying to see it but it was nearly 30 years ago and I had no idea how to go about that.
I went through similar many years ago, my dad died, left similar caveats (verbal) about houses to be sold, and my step mum got everything, my brother and I didnt get a penny, we never got to see the will. Ive often wondered if its worth the hassle of trying to see it but it was nearly 30 years ago and I had no idea how to go about that.
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