Police attendance at Mental health incidents
Discussion
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/28/me...
Long over due in my opinion, but not sure how it will work in practice.
You wouldn’t believe how much police time is spent on “concern for safety” incidents, which by their nature often have to be prioritised over crime.
I don’t see how NHS and social care are going to be able to pick up all these incidents which the police have attended for so long.
Long over due in my opinion, but not sure how it will work in practice.
You wouldn’t believe how much police time is spent on “concern for safety” incidents, which by their nature often have to be prioritised over crime.
I don’t see how NHS and social care are going to be able to pick up all these incidents which the police have attended for so long.
SteveScooby said:
You wouldn’t believe how much police time is spent on “concern for safety” incidents, which by their nature often have to be prioritised over crime.
You're obviously an insider, if you have this knowledge.SteveScooby said:
I don’t see how NHS and social care are going to be able to pick up all these incidents which the police have attended for so long.
What is your solution then?One of the reasons why police have always attended is because they have the legal power to detain someone and take them to a place of safety, plus the usual powers of arrest if someone kicks off.
None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing s
t.
None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing s
t. It's similar to the way people turn to their GPs for help with stuff like housing problems. The failure of social care and housing services puts a huge load onto hospitals, GPs, schools and the Police, all of whom are themselves already under-resourced and struggling trying to do the stuff they're actually qualified to do. Bringing the crisis to a head by drawing a line and forcing organisations to shoulder their own specific responsibilities may well be the least bad option.
by concern for safety do you mean where there is "an immediate threat to life", which the Met will still be responding to and those hours will continue to be spent on mental heath responses
the main surprise for me reading the article is that the MET does not already have local area agreements in place. this genuinely surprises me and Rowley says "“Work is already underway in London to develop a concordat across health provision...". - i truly wish them all well with it.
Joint protocols cant fix all the problems but we see them working reasonably effectively in other locales (although RCRP only freed up 7% of Police time in the Humberside example if i've read that correctly ?).
the main surprise for me reading the article is that the MET does not already have local area agreements in place. this genuinely surprises me and Rowley says "“Work is already underway in London to develop a concordat across health provision...". - i truly wish them all well with it.
Joint protocols cant fix all the problems but we see them working reasonably effectively in other locales (although RCRP only freed up 7% of Police time in the Humberside example if i've read that correctly ?).
Surely it would be better to get a new system in place, before what's in place now stops. It's obvious that how it works currently isn't the best for either the police or the concerned vulnerable person, but without testing and agreeing a new solution before just stopping the current one seems a bit daft.
Silvanus said:
Surely it would be better to get a new system in place, before what's in place now stops. It's obvious that how it works currently isn't the best for either the police or the concerned vulnerable person, but without testing and agreeing a new solution before just stopping the current one seems a bit daft.
I expect the Met leadership have no confidence at all that anything will change unless they force people's hands. The current "system" was not planned; it's just happened. The Police never agreed to being a second rate mental health crisis handling unit. They've just become one in the absence of other organisations doing their jobs properly.Alex Z said:
One of the reasons why police have always attended is because they have the legal power to detain someone and take them to a place of safety, plus the usual powers of arrest if someone kicks off.
None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing st.
This. Plus, it's an emergency and they are an emergency service.None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing s
t. I was driving over a mainline railway bridge on a deserted DC and saw a chap sat, legs dangling over the railway side. It was one of those slightly surreal situations where your brain takes a second to process what you just saw. My next thought was to ring 999 and tell the Police what I had just seen, not to start googling phone numbers.
(Long story short, after speaking to the police I doubled back wondering WTAF you say or do to try and stop someone killing themselves, fortunately the police arrived at the same time as me so I left them to it. A quick call to the Station a few hours later and a kindly sergeant explained they'd talked him off the wall and got him to the local hospital, which I know has a well regarded psychiatric unit).
donkmeister said:
Alex Z said:
One of the reasons why police have always attended is because they have the legal power to detain someone and take them to a place of safety, plus the usual powers of arrest if someone kicks off.
None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing st.
This. Plus, it's an emergency and they are an emergency service.None of that will be the case for a council employee or whoever else gets sent.
If the police don’t have enough resources to do everything they need to, the answer is to fund them properly, not just stop doing s
t. I was driving over a mainline railway bridge on a deserted DC and saw a chap sat, legs dangling over the railway side. It was one of those slightly surreal situations where your brain takes a second to process what you just saw. My next thought was to ring 999 and tell the Police what I had just seen, not to start googling phone numbers.
(Long story short, after speaking to the police I doubled back wondering WTAF you say or do to try and stop someone killing themselves, fortunately the police arrived at the same time as me so I left them to it. A quick call to the Station a few hours later and a kindly sergeant explained they'd talked him off the wall and got him to the local hospital, which I know has a well regarded psychiatric unit).
Good call @Donkmeister.
The shifting of responsibilities CAN make sense, of course, but as mentioned above, it'd be nice to know that the resources are in place before.
I think back to 'care in the community' - instead of in big mental hospitals.
It may have been a good concept; but the money wasn't spent to allow success.
The fall-out is being felt even now.
The shifting of responsibilities CAN make sense, of course, but as mentioned above, it'd be nice to know that the resources are in place before.
I think back to 'care in the community' - instead of in big mental hospitals.
It may have been a good concept; but the money wasn't spent to allow success.
The fall-out is being felt even now.
Alex Z said:
One of the reasons why police have always attended is because they have the legal power to detain someone and take them to a place of safety, plus the usual powers of arrest if someone kicks off.
But the Police get sent to people in crisis even if there is no need for Police powers to be used.Just means that MH calls will now all be life threatening when called in so cops will attend.
It disgusts me that cops taking a MH patient to hospital have to sit and wait 8+ hours in A&E for them to be assessed, then if they are lucky a bed found, then being told to take the patient miles away because ambulance are too busy.
It disgusts me that cops taking a MH patient to hospital have to sit and wait 8+ hours in A&E for them to be assessed, then if they are lucky a bed found, then being told to take the patient miles away because ambulance are too busy.
The police have an historic role in being a 'long-stop' for those in dire need. Someone suffering mental trauma can be a threat to themselves and to others. My belief is that, if there is a call from the public that suggests a person might be at risk, or property at risk, then they must attend until they can clear the threat.
The 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
The 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
Derek Smith said:
The police have an historic role in being a 'long-stop' for those in dire need. Someone suffering mental trauma can be a threat to themselves and to others. My belief is that, if there is a call from the public that suggests a person might be at risk, or property at risk, then they must attend until they can clear the threat.
The 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
Core duties of the PoliceThe 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
Protect life and property
Prevention and Detection of Crime
Maintenance of Order
Prosecution of Offenders
The Met will still attend when threat when there is an immediate threat to life otherwise let them concentrate on fighting crime
The other agencies have had at least 40 years of warning they need to get there houses in order and provide 24/7 cover
Ever tried to get hold of a social worker / housing officer / environmental health never mind a mental health professional officer out of office hours ?
Millions of hours every year spent by Police Officers doing non police work or waiting for other better qualified and more professionals to actually turn up.
Edited by edthefed on Monday 29th May 08:51
Derek Smith said:
The police have an historic role in being a 'long-stop' for those in dire need. Someone suffering mental trauma can be a threat to themselves and to others. My belief is that, if there is a call from the public that suggests a person might be at risk, or property at risk, then they must attend until they can clear the threat.
The 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
We've attended at MH incidents for many years for the reasons you've already stated. The difference now is the amount of time spent with the individuals. The 99-day stay of execution is grandstanding. The Met Comm knows there is no chance of the NHS being able to recruits staff to give them any chance of taking over.
The core responsibilities of the police are protection of life and property, not fighting crime as, presumably, the letter states. The prosecution of offences comes down the bottom of the list. If he's doing it for publicity, then good for him, but the fear is that he is not. If he backs himself into a PR corner, it could all go wrong, as we have seen with politicians. Yet they have advisors trained to avoid such scenarios.
People for the police for help often as a last resort. They have no one else to turn to. The answer is not to abandon this responsibility, but to put pressure on the government for reform of services that serve those with mental problems.
A police force dedicated to fighting crime, at least as a prime objective, may have lots of positives, but it is not up to the Met Comm to divest his force of its responsibilities.
When you (or any officer) attended in the past, you'd decide to section the person, you'd then attend at the appropriate hospital, drop the person into the care of the MH professional and you'd be on your way.
Now, they attend at the hospital (quite normally A&E these days), and as there's no room or person to take them, the officers are required to stay with them, THIS is where the issue arises, what used to take an hour or so, now can sometimes take the whole shift or more than the whole shift. We all know that resources are finite, I've seen full shifts taken off the streets and sitting for hours on end at hospitals with MH patients. this cannot be right?
What is the answer? I don't know, money? maybe, but does it get spent in the appropriate way, the status quo can't be sustained though. MH is primarily a medical issue and should be dealt with by appropriately trained individuals, not the police.
It would just make a huge difference if there were actually MH response teams whose core role was to respond and support attending police units as they happen and then take over management of the person (unless police action needed).
Likewise at hospital, instead of sitting in A&E for hours the MH team were on hand to deal.
Numerous times MH teams resisting using their powers and leave it to police because they can’t be bothered with the paperwork doing it themselves.
How many times do we have ‘police failings’ when other agencies should be getting pulled apart for not operating in a manner where they actually fulfill their primary function. Police is always the easy target.
Likewise at hospital, instead of sitting in A&E for hours the MH team were on hand to deal.
Numerous times MH teams resisting using their powers and leave it to police because they can’t be bothered with the paperwork doing it themselves.
How many times do we have ‘police failings’ when other agencies should be getting pulled apart for not operating in a manner where they actually fulfill their primary function. Police is always the easy target.
One of of my daughters works in adult mental health and the job sounds like a complete nightmare in every respect imaginable.
Although it appears she works for the NHS, they've contracted out provision at the level she works at so she was Tuped to some random non-profit company whose raison d'etre completely eludes me. Because she's not embedded in the NHS that makes dealing with actual NHS people and social service very awkward - she can't see patient records, for example. Latest thing is Social Services are refusing to accept referrals from them where children could be at risk.
They're under tremendous pressure - the service only seems to only exist thanks to the goodwill of staff who will often be working until midnight (the NHS only funds it as an office hours service) writing up notes, reports, referral letters etc.
It's not terrible pay - she's equivalent of Band 7 NHS (although as now not part of NHS she's frozen where she was when Tuped and they don't get the pay increases) but the level of responsibility is high, especially as most patients know exactly what to say to get attention. They're very short staffed and struggle to recruit.
Although it appears she works for the NHS, they've contracted out provision at the level she works at so she was Tuped to some random non-profit company whose raison d'etre completely eludes me. Because she's not embedded in the NHS that makes dealing with actual NHS people and social service very awkward - she can't see patient records, for example. Latest thing is Social Services are refusing to accept referrals from them where children could be at risk.
They're under tremendous pressure - the service only seems to only exist thanks to the goodwill of staff who will often be working until midnight (the NHS only funds it as an office hours service) writing up notes, reports, referral letters etc.
It's not terrible pay - she's equivalent of Band 7 NHS (although as now not part of NHS she's frozen where she was when Tuped and they don't get the pay increases) but the level of responsibility is high, especially as most patients know exactly what to say to get attention. They're very short staffed and struggle to recruit.
Mental health teams attending community calls with Police, providing assessmenmts in both custody and acute general hospitals is really not un-common nowadays - i can only speculate that some areas are a little behind ?
Police powers set out within Section 136 of the Mental Health Act are referred to by previous posters. To clarify for those not in the business - Setion 136 is a preserved power of arrest under PACE and, therefore, officers will have an ongoing role with such individuals. Absolutely they should be able to ruck up to and Approved (or "Health Based") Place of Safety, hand the patient over and be on their way. Not all of these delays are attributable to mental health providers and there is much evidence based reporting as to the reasons for some of them - but, yes, the lack of health based facility is up there and psychiatry has been reporting and publishing on this for years.
Older retrospective literature studies (for London) have shown that there was a high rate of conversion to a Mental Health Act detention (82-85%) which suggests that Police powers were being used entirely appropriately. Restraint was required in 25% of cases and 20% had committed a criminal offence. At that time, the most oft reported reasons for arrest were threat to self, threat to others and damage to property. I cant find anything more current which sheds light on what may have changed since that report.
Interestingly, the search throws up references to a pan-London accord (specifically S136) but repeatedly reports on poor or patchy implementation.
Police powers set out within Section 136 of the Mental Health Act are referred to by previous posters. To clarify for those not in the business - Setion 136 is a preserved power of arrest under PACE and, therefore, officers will have an ongoing role with such individuals. Absolutely they should be able to ruck up to and Approved (or "Health Based") Place of Safety, hand the patient over and be on their way. Not all of these delays are attributable to mental health providers and there is much evidence based reporting as to the reasons for some of them - but, yes, the lack of health based facility is up there and psychiatry has been reporting and publishing on this for years.
Older retrospective literature studies (for London) have shown that there was a high rate of conversion to a Mental Health Act detention (82-85%) which suggests that Police powers were being used entirely appropriately. Restraint was required in 25% of cases and 20% had committed a criminal offence. At that time, the most oft reported reasons for arrest were threat to self, threat to others and damage to property. I cant find anything more current which sheds light on what may have changed since that report.
Interestingly, the search throws up references to a pan-London accord (specifically S136) but repeatedly reports on poor or patchy implementation.
Edited by paulmakin on Monday 29th May 10:20
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