Can you claim for consequential loss (engine)?
Discussion
I suspect it depends entirely on the builders attitude, and their pride on their work and reputation. This will vary.
In my case, I had a rebuild on an engine. Turned out didn't quite go as desired, and problems arose over next few months once I had the car back.
The builder 100% stood behind their work, and their warrantee, took the car back without question, diagnosed the problem, and rebuilt the engine again.
Its been sound since.
In this case, the builder has a very strong reputation, and rightly so, as they "owned" the problem, and saw to it that we got the right outcome for me, as the customer.
Mistakes happen (its inevitable- we are human) so what matters is how we deal with them. Following my experience I would very happily vouch for the builder I used, as they absolutely backed up their promises with actions.
In my case, I had a rebuild on an engine. Turned out didn't quite go as desired, and problems arose over next few months once I had the car back.
The builder 100% stood behind their work, and their warrantee, took the car back without question, diagnosed the problem, and rebuilt the engine again.
Its been sound since.
In this case, the builder has a very strong reputation, and rightly so, as they "owned" the problem, and saw to it that we got the right outcome for me, as the customer.
Mistakes happen (its inevitable- we are human) so what matters is how we deal with them. Following my experience I would very happily vouch for the builder I used, as they absolutely backed up their promises with actions.
HiAsAKite said:
I suspect it depends entirely on the builders attitude, and their pride on their work and reputation. This will vary.
In my case, I had a rebuild on an engine. Turned out didn't quite go as desired, and problems arose over next few months once I had the car back.
The builder 100% stood behind their work, and their warrantee, took the car back without question, diagnosed the problem, and rebuilt the engine again.
Its been sound since.
In this case, the builder has a very strong reputation, and rightly so, as they "owned" the problem, and saw to it that we got the right outcome for me, as the customer.
Mistakes happen (its inevitable- we are human) so what matters is how we deal with them. Following my experience I would very happily vouch for the builder I used, as they absolutely backed up their promises with actions.
If you get them mostly right and have to rebuild the odd one every now and again then you should be prepared for that if you're building a lot of engines. It gets difficult when you pay separately for the fitting as the mechanic won't want to take it out for free and the engine builder won't want to pay the mechanic to take it out. So you'll have to pay whatever it costs to have the engine removed from the car. In my case, I had a rebuild on an engine. Turned out didn't quite go as desired, and problems arose over next few months once I had the car back.
The builder 100% stood behind their work, and their warrantee, took the car back without question, diagnosed the problem, and rebuilt the engine again.
Its been sound since.
In this case, the builder has a very strong reputation, and rightly so, as they "owned" the problem, and saw to it that we got the right outcome for me, as the customer.
Mistakes happen (its inevitable- we are human) so what matters is how we deal with them. Following my experience I would very happily vouch for the builder I used, as they absolutely backed up their promises with actions.
Canon_Fodder said:
2 quick Q's...
Is this B2B or B2C?
What does the contract say?
there's no contract and it's B2C. (invoices)Is this B2B or B2C?
What does the contract say?
I employed someone to rebuild a cylinder head ( as standard but the equivalent of zero miles) and this person ( business) didn't do bottom ends, so I employed someone else ( another business) to build the bottom end, again as standard but zero miles condition. (Pug 106 gti engine)
I mated the two parts together and put it in the engine bay.
I consulted both as to how the engine should be run in, and neither had a strong opinion, but suggested I changed the oil filter before a full send. So I put some mineral oil in (Millers) and then ran it up in the garage, then swapped out for total 10w50, took it to a track day, only to find after 3 sessions of gradual rev increase, that I now have no compression in cylinder 3.
It's being diagnosed, but assuming I haven't f
ked it up ( possible) there's been a failure of piston rings, or some other machining and piston matching issue, with an outside chance of maybe a bent valve.So plenty to chew on, and if it's on me, its on me, and I'll cough. However the business that built the bottom end is no position to take out the engine and sort, he could handle the work if presented with the block, but he doesn't have the facilities to store a car and take an engine out, and i am not doing it because I've spent over 100 days in the last year building and removing engines.
Well if it is going to happen you are at least in the better position of being able to take the engine out yourself. That takes a lot of the difficulty out of it. If it was on a track day gradually heating up I think I'd wager on it being the block rather than the head. Piston ring issues of some kind potentially.
If you took a brand new Peugeot to a track day, what warranty would you expect to be valid?
Is a box-standard engine build the correct choice for a trackday engine which isn't going to get proper running in?
If the mechanic had made a quantifiable mistake like fitted the wrong part, I'd expect the mechanic to be on the hook to re-do his work.
But if he did what was asked, using the correct parts of the correct quality and then you go to a race track, maybe it's not his problem that you used the engine in a manner it's not designed for?
If a part has failed, is it because it actually had a fault which would have presented itself in normal road use? Or has the part only failed because of the short running in scheme?
It is of course possible that the part which has failed is the head gasket, which the OP fitted himself?
Or maybe it's some sort of tolerance issue where the head and block no longer work well together?
If you give one bloke the whole job, he has more control and responsibility.
Until it's apart, you don't know exactly what failed.
It's possible something like a piston is the problem, but the piston maker will say it was caused by not being run in in the way they'd agreed with Peugeot or whatever scheme they recommend. To my mind, if your running is a few turns around a track, you need to bear that in mind when deciding the piston/bore clearance, you might not have the same preference as a manufacturer looking to put on engine on the road for 150,000 miles of reasonable oil consumption.
Hopefully the mechanics will show some goodwill as an investment in their reputation and want to know what actually went wrong.
But I think essentially, you take anything to a track, it's on you if you break it.
I assume it could not be run in on the road as it's a SORN track car?
Is a box-standard engine build the correct choice for a trackday engine which isn't going to get proper running in?
If the mechanic had made a quantifiable mistake like fitted the wrong part, I'd expect the mechanic to be on the hook to re-do his work.
But if he did what was asked, using the correct parts of the correct quality and then you go to a race track, maybe it's not his problem that you used the engine in a manner it's not designed for?
If a part has failed, is it because it actually had a fault which would have presented itself in normal road use? Or has the part only failed because of the short running in scheme?
It is of course possible that the part which has failed is the head gasket, which the OP fitted himself?
Or maybe it's some sort of tolerance issue where the head and block no longer work well together?
If you give one bloke the whole job, he has more control and responsibility.
Until it's apart, you don't know exactly what failed.
It's possible something like a piston is the problem, but the piston maker will say it was caused by not being run in in the way they'd agreed with Peugeot or whatever scheme they recommend. To my mind, if your running is a few turns around a track, you need to bear that in mind when deciding the piston/bore clearance, you might not have the same preference as a manufacturer looking to put on engine on the road for 150,000 miles of reasonable oil consumption.
Hopefully the mechanics will show some goodwill as an investment in their reputation and want to know what actually went wrong.
But I think essentially, you take anything to a track, it's on you if you break it.
I assume it could not be run in on the road as it's a SORN track car?
Some odd points raised there.
Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
[quote=Dynion Araf Uchaf]
there's no contract and it's B2C. (invoices)
I employed someone to rebuild a cylinder head ( as standard but the equivalent of zero miles) and this person ( business) didn't do bottom ends, so I employed someone else ( another business) to build the bottom end, again as standard but zero miles condition. (Pug 106 gti engine)
I mated the two parts together and put it in the engine bay.[/qoute]
Nothing personal but that's a strategy fraught with risk.
You've got a problem - who caused it, him, them, or you.or a bit of both/all
Not something that could be sensibly taken to litigation
there's no contract and it's B2C. (invoices)
I employed someone to rebuild a cylinder head ( as standard but the equivalent of zero miles) and this person ( business) didn't do bottom ends, so I employed someone else ( another business) to build the bottom end, again as standard but zero miles condition. (Pug 106 gti engine)
I mated the two parts together and put it in the engine bay.[/qoute]
Nothing personal but that's a strategy fraught with risk.
You've got a problem - who caused it, him, them, or you.or a bit of both/all
Not something that could be sensibly taken to litigation
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Some odd points raised there.
Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
Maybe you should have bought a beemer or a hy'n'dry then?Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
It's possible for them to warrant their products for the track, because they have proper control over build, parts suppliers etc. And they build enough cars to iron out the processes.
They are also more modern engines, built to modern tolerances, modern metallurgy and coatings less reliant on running in.
Also they are not using secondhand parts such as blocks and heads which may distort.
I would not take the mechanics' reluctance to endorse any particular running process as carte blanche to do WTF you like with it and expect them to pick up the bits.
The root cause could be a build-up of tolerances, a piston is the tight side of nominal, compression is a bit high, an injector is a bit lean and so it goes on.
I expect it will be easier to mend it than to prove exactly where any blame lies.
I was initially very surprised that no proper running in was suggested by either guy.
However, my understanding is that running in is designed to bed in the new piston rings, so if that part of the engine wasn't touched in the rebuild, perhaps it wasn't deemed necessary to run it in?
Loss of compression in one cylinder - what could be the cause of that and how does it relate to the work done?
However, my understanding is that running in is designed to bed in the new piston rings, so if that part of the engine wasn't touched in the rebuild, perhaps it wasn't deemed necessary to run it in?
Loss of compression in one cylinder - what could be the cause of that and how does it relate to the work done?
To answer some of the questions
I do own a Hyundai
My Pug is a race car
What I was thinking was like most club race drivers, build the engine as that is a cheaper way
I used other suppliers to do the bits I couldn’t do
I have said from the start, if it’s on me, I pay
There was no carte Blanche for me to do what I wanted in terms of running in. I followed a process that I felt was sensible
The fault is not diagnosed as yet
It could be piston related, due to the symptoms. This may include wrong sized piston fitted, incorrectly honed bore, rings not gapped correctly
None of which is ‘my fault’.
But I don’t know yet, and if it can’t be 100% pinned on one entity, I am on the hook.
Whoever said it’s a couple of hours to take the engine out - no chance. A full day realistically.
I do own a Hyundai
My Pug is a race car
What I was thinking was like most club race drivers, build the engine as that is a cheaper way
I used other suppliers to do the bits I couldn’t do
I have said from the start, if it’s on me, I pay
There was no carte Blanche for me to do what I wanted in terms of running in. I followed a process that I felt was sensible
The fault is not diagnosed as yet
It could be piston related, due to the symptoms. This may include wrong sized piston fitted, incorrectly honed bore, rings not gapped correctly
None of which is ‘my fault’.
But I don’t know yet, and if it can’t be 100% pinned on one entity, I am on the hook.
Whoever said it’s a couple of hours to take the engine out - no chance. A full day realistically.
I dont think you are going to able to claim for c9nsequential loss in this scenario there are just too many variables with the different parties involved in it.
Hopefully you can prove a faulty part once disassembled and have some come back on the relevant builder but if they don't play ball making a claim through court would be unlikely to succeed and would be at great time and expense
Hopefully you can prove a faulty part once disassembled and have some come back on the relevant builder but if they don't play ball making a claim through court would be unlikely to succeed and would be at great time and expense
OutInTheShed said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Some odd points raised there.
Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
Maybe you should have bought a beemer or a hy'n'dry then?Hyundai and BMW M provide track day warranties for their performance products. It’s clearly possible to build a road car to run around a track
Both engine builders knew the intention for the engine to be raced and neither expressed a preference for how it should be run in.
Of the fault is mine I’ll cough, however if someone has made a mistake in the build of the engine such as a wrongly honed bore or fitting a wrong sized piston there’s no amount of running in that will fix that.
It's possible for them to warrant their products for the track, because they have proper control over build, parts suppliers etc. And they build enough cars to iron out the processes.
They are also more modern engines, built to modern tolerances, modern metallurgy and coatings less reliant on running in.
Also they are not using secondhand parts such as blocks and heads which may distort.
I would not take the mechanics' reluctance to endorse any particular running process as carte blanche to do WTF you like with it and expect them to pick up the bits.
The root cause could be a build-up of tolerances, a piston is the tight side of nominal, compression is a bit high, an injector is a bit lean and so it goes on.
I expect it will be easier to mend it than to prove exactly where any blame lies.
I have bought new cars before when I was a teenager and I drove them like a bat out of hell from the first turn of the key. This was a while ago, not modern engines with modern coatings etc.
Both engines in both cars I'm thinking about were both fine. They went on to provide many thousands of miles of great driving without smoke or any other problems. Gearboxes on the other hand...
ingenieur said:
The running in process is to get a good relationship between the bores and the piston rings. The risk of doing it badly is that the engine will burn oil and you'll get blue smoke from the exhaust.
I have bought new cars before when I was a teenager and I drove them like a bat out of hell from the first turn of the key. This was a while ago, not modern engines with modern coatings etc.
Both engines in both cars I'm thinking about were both fine. They went on to provide many thousands of miles of great driving without smoke or any other problems. Gearboxes on the other hand...
Driving on the road, even if you think you're giving it stick, tends to be more varied and easier on the engine than track use? More time to cool down and rub off any bits of piston which pick up on the bores, between spurts of power. It's not going to go bad every time but it doesn't surprise me that this has gone wrong.I have bought new cars before when I was a teenager and I drove them like a bat out of hell from the first turn of the key. This was a while ago, not modern engines with modern coatings etc.
Both engines in both cars I'm thinking about were both fine. They went on to provide many thousands of miles of great driving without smoke or any other problems. Gearboxes on the other hand...
Equally there are hundreds of minor flaws or errors which could have caused this outcome. Or it could be a combination of non-optimum fits and marginal running in. A couple of hundred varied road miles might have made a difference IMHO.
Even if you strip the motor, you won't necessarily know very much.
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